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New Basically, yeah
I've got a degree in engineering.

When designing a structure, an engineer can calcuate expected stresses and design parameters, then go to a handbook of properties of materials and look up some values for *well characterized properties* of different materials before selecting one for the job.

A few software components are equally well characterized (Oracle for example). But the rest of it is like trying to do engineering with alien metal and no materials analysis lab. Basically you build something with it, try to use it, watch it break, analyze where and how it broke, and add/remove/change something to cope with the factors that made it break. This is empirical. Unlike engineering which is fairly well defined (you can look up the stress properties of a given alloy and know what will break it - this is defined), empirical stuff is inherently unpredictable (but not unmanageable).

The madness is trying to treat an inherently empirical process as defined. Management doesn't like empiricism. No surprise since a company's stock price is heavily tied to whether a company performs as predicted and empirical processes are filled with unpredictabilities.

The software industry is thoroughly delusional in many respects. This is one.



"One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that,
lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination
of their C programs."
-- Robert Firth
New Which brings us to the essential tension in SW today:
The madness is trying to treat an inherently empirical process as defined. Management doesn't like empiricism.


Which is a shame, because most good programmers I know are "good" precisely because they are "good at" empirical systems, not at defined systems; the only defined systems they work well with are those they have themselves designed.

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New Re: Basically, yeah
That was very much how rockets were developed. You said - "well, I have to make this basically controlled explosion that goes in a determinate direction right in the middle of a wad of fuel pipes, steering arrangements, and coolant and hydraulic functions. So you made something and watched it destroy itself, over and over again.

-drl
New Ummm...
That was how the Americans did it you mean.

The Russians developed this little branch of mathematics called "control theory" allowing them to predict before they built the rocket whether it would be a stable system (hence probably won't fall apart) or an unstable system (hence likely to explode) without building it.

Or so claimed the engineer turned mathematician who taught the advanced ODE course I took...

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
     Kill the Methodologists - (tuberculosis) - (69)
         Skill: the anti-Manager - (jb4) - (1)
             Re: Skill: the anti-Manager - (orion)
         Re: Kill the Methodologists - (systems) - (61)
             Thanks for joining in, comments - (boxley)
             OT: Text formatting - (pwhysall)
             Most Methodologies have their basis in fantasy - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                 Let's see if I can summarize - (drewk) - (4)
                     Basically, yeah - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                         Which brings us to the essential tension in SW today: - (tseliot)
                         Re: Basically, yeah - (deSitter) - (1)
                             Ummm... - (ben_tilly)
                 There's nothing wrong with Methodology... - (Simon_Jester)
             Ahh, a PHB in training. - (broomberg) - (6)
                 Programming is more art than science. - (static) - (1)
                     I know every time I want some programming done - (boxley)
                 This is the *only* reason I'm still a programmer - (tseliot) - (3)
                     So you're good at forgetting things - (drewk) - (2)
                         Oh stop yerself! - (jb4)
                         That's easy - (ben_tilly)
             Sorry, you're misinformed. - (admin) - (44)
                 "You can't coach height" - (drewk) - (7)
                     Exactly. And while we're on the subject... - (admin) - (6)
                         No kidding - (drewk) - (3)
                             heck, i got one dumber than a rock but gifted - (boxley) - (2)
                                 Not the same. - (admin) - (1)
                                     It is also used in the common tongue - (boxley)
                         Doubt mine qualify as gifted... - (ChrisR)
                         I got one of each - (broomberg)
                 The problem with discussing elite programmers... - (ChrisR) - (5)
                     Possible - (broomberg) - (4)
                         I think I've reached that point - (drewk) - (2)
                             The first thing I do now... - (admin)
                             I worked with many real 10%ers - (boxley)
                         Its situational to some extent - (tuberculosis)
                 Actually, lazy is better - (broomberg) - (2)
                     That's "responsibly lazy". - (admin)
                     Wall in the Camel book: - (tseliot)
                 Re: Sorry, you're misinformed. - (pwhysall) - (2)
                     Undoubtedly. - (admin) - (1)
                         Hmm. "curious", eh? - (static)
                 Double post. -NT - (pwhysall)
                 Talent how measured? - (tablizer) - (22)
                     Point == missed. - (admin) - (21)
                         Software development is like driving - (tablizer) - (20)
                             Uhhh... - (Yendor) - (18)
                                 ANYONE is a little too strong a requirement! :) - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                     Well, OK... - (Yendor)
                                 Audience - (tablizer) - (15)
                                     Two words... - (Yendor) - (7)
                                         Another Two Words. - (folkert)
                                         Megadittos - (tjsinclair)
                                         Most places i've been don't have unit tests - (tablizer) - (4)
                                             The point being... - (folkert) - (3)
                                                 OT - new LRPDism? (new thread) - (CRConrad)
                                                 regarding unit testing - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                     Re: regarding unit testing - (admin)
                                     Don' you be talkin' about 'abstraction'... - (jb4) - (6)
                                         Bull. Relational is more abstract than OO - (tablizer) - (5)
                                             And tables are nothing but... - (jb4) - (4)
                                                 Relational does not dictate underlying implementation - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                     Bryce, what ARE you talking about - (jb4) - (2)
                                                         You misunderstood me - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                             And *why* do you think that happens all the time...? (new thread) - (CRConrad)
                             Most software developers are wrong... -NT - (admin)
         Nice -NT - (deSitter)
         Robert C Martin concurs - (tuberculosis) - (2)
             *snort* My PFY tells me that evey day - (tseliot) - (1)
                 *Lots* of people have told me that - (drewk)
         HOLEEECHIT! - (folkert)

Menage a dodecahedron?
87 ms