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New Let me turn that around
Is it moral to act in a way that you know is ineffective about something that is important when you know that it is ineffective?

You are strongly implying that my recognizing that other people have different moralities than I do is the same as my saying that their moralities are just fine by me, and I am powerless to act. This is both untrue and unfair.

What is true is that I am aware of the possibility that my morality does not match that of the person that I am talking to, or even the majority of the people around me. In that case, appealing to the moral principle which I hold near and dear is not going to do any good. It does no good whether or not I happen to recognize that fact, but it is only when I recognize when that is happening that I can do anything about it.

What can I do about it? All that is certain is that it is pointless to vent my rage and frustration at people who will not agree. I might feel better for showing a little incoherent upset, but that is in. But often if I understand the other person's point of view I can find a way to convince them from what they believe. For instance a fundamentalist Christian may not directly accept that I have a right to not have Christianity shoved down my throat, but I might convince them that freedom of religion is good for religion, and then that freedom of religion needs to apply to me as well.

The recognition that they have different beliefs than I do is critical to my being able to figure out how to convince them. If you watch you will see lots of people who don't ever make that step. As a result they talk past each other because neither sees that a perfectly convincing argument isn't convincing because the other does not accept the premises.

Sometimes I can't convince them of what I want to convince them. In that case perhaps I can change my goal to one that is doable. For instance a good chunk of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights in particular lays out half-way goals, ones that nobody is really happy with, but lots of people of different beliefs can live with. For instance nobody really likes freedom of speech, oh you might like the principle, but it is easy to find applications of it that you don't appreciate. However lots of people can agree to live with freedom of speech, we accept when some use it in ways we hate so that it is there for us when we use it in ways that others don't like.

And no, I don't agree with all of the US Constitution. I accept it in the same way that I accept our legal system, as a flawed attempt to make things work out between people who don't see eye to eye. An attempt which for all its faults is the one that I can most easily get others to accept, and which I am most likely to be able to get enforced if need be.

And sometimes I simply can't find common ground. In that case I am not happy about it. But knowing when energy is wasted frees me to spend energy in more effective ways. Perhaps that means walking away. Perhaps it means attempting to take the situation into my own hands.

And finally to answer your question.

None of this in any way, shape, or form is a statement about what I think is right, fair, or what society is entitled to. It is about how I can use my recognition that people don't believe as I do to free myself to act as effectively as I can.

On morality. My personal belief is that most people are wired with the capacity for morality, and then aquire a sense of morality from some complex combination of genetics and environment. For me personally, where I got my morality from is neither here nor there. I have a sense of right and wrong, and my personal goal of acting in ways that I can feel satisfied with is best achieved by my acting in ways that I feel are right.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Tur(i)n Complete ;-)
Few ever say it as eloquently. More to the point - quite few, once having grokked (their personal form of) the fundamental issue: fewer still 'remember' what the implications are, almost any time one encounters another homo-sap. Lastly, those who get this far - still are apt to forget what they Know! in the silliness of Boolean-logic as passes for any honest attempts at metaphysical Reasoning.

As alluded to above in this thread, many Christians have the Belief that -- for the Very Special Situation\ufffd of *Their Particular Avatar* -- no other rules of civilized tolerance need apply (Constitutionally and imperfectly addressed - or other ideas) re "these others". Hence IMhO the dogged persistence of talking-right-by others, while Doing Their Duty\ufffd. Hence the lions and the arena: imagine how the Imperialist Romans took to this kind of
Fuck You; I'm Right / You Are Wrong / MY God Will GET You / nyaa nyaa Nyaa.

IME the largest problem in any actual "religious discussion" - debate being impossible - has much to do with the peculiarly-Christian idea of the Personal God\ufffd. It's such a comforting idea.. but in order to implement this quintessentially (and longingly) man-created myth: one has to impute, to assign "Qualities" to the Absolute!!! The UnKnowable Incarnated! A "Vengeful" or at times "Loving" or at times "needful of Your Adoration" kinda Guy.. From this follows the conceit and the hubris which -

Well, you know..


Ashton

PS - no difference in much anti-Believers doggerel, of course. 'Proof of absence' meets Personal God cha cha cha
New a lot of it is in humanity itself
a religeous person knows you should help the poor, but I am tired and cranky so "get a job!!" becomes what is said instead of here brother, bless. Dificult to remember morals/duties in the daily grind of the existance. Why we have more Bush and less Buppo
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

"I hit him so hard in the head his dog shat a turd in the shape of Jesus" Leonard Pine
New Helping the poor
I can understand being tired and cranky, and being so busy working a job that you don't have the time and/or money to help the poor. When I was working, I worked Downtown St. Louis City, we had plenty of poor people on the streets begging for food or money. I gave when I could, and my coworkers made fun of me for it. I suppose they were the ones saying "Get a job" to the poor, while I gave the poor $2 or $5, or sometimes $20 if I could spare it. I could tell the fakes, the fakes don't smell so bad, and wear expensive sneakers and clothes, the real poor have clothes that are falling apart, cheap shoes, and look like they haven't bathed in a while.

Now I don't have a job or the money to give to the poor, but I do drop some change into those charity boxes in stores when I get out. No poor in the subdivision I live in, unless you count me. Somehow they seem to migrate towards the city, not the county.


"If you're going to cheat, cheat fair. If there's anything I hate it's a crooked crook!" -Moe Howard
New Re: Let me turn that around
So, you are telling me that working with people's interests and leaving their moral rules alone is the right way. Perhaps. It's definitely the most practical way. However.

Which is the better result, by your own defenition:

1) to convince a fundamentalist that it's advantageous to leave an atheist alone
or

2) to convince a fundamentalist that it's _wrong_ to offer people a choice between death and conversion

?

My jujement says that #2 is better. It seems to me that morality is like free will: whether there are absolute moral rules or not, one has to act as if his moral system is absolute.

Furthermore, when 2 people act out their "absolute" moral beliefs, there can be 2 possible outcomes: either one destroys another, or they learn to coexist. I'd observe that some moral systems share certain core that makes coexistance possible. That core may be called "absolute morality". It includes, among other things, certain flexibility. "Thou shalt not have things thine way all the time". "Consider other's feelings". Golden rule. And such.

There is another possible approach here. I wonder what you folks would say...
Let's state 3 premises:

1.
Each culture/morality has some set of standards/rules that ensure that the society does not rip itself apart. Things like "golden rule", "thou shalt not steal" and so on. People who live by the rules are called "moral" people. They may not prosper, but they get very particular form of respect from most of society

2.
Moral rules do not apply to every human being. There always is a circle beyond which "people" are no longer people, and, hence, are no longer subjects to morality. In the American South we had blacks, in country club we have some bum off park bench, in a Christian State we have "heretics" and so on.

3. (the hardest to accept) The person whose circle is wider is considered a "better" person by people with more narrow circle. He/she may be called foolish, crazy or dangerous, but never "evil". At least, not sincerely.

That core set of rules that allows society to exist is the absolute morality. Everybody has a circle to which it applies. Even the most fanatic believer has some tolerance. The difference is in the breadth of the circle.

A Shiite mullah prays on a clay pad made with some dust from Mecca, he's not going to kill his paritioner who does not have such pad. Some tolerance is needed even in fundamentalism.

A mafiosi whose morality say that a traitor should not live does not kill his mother, no matter how irritating she may be. Some "shalt not kill" is needed even in murder.

A CEO (hardest to believe) who packeted hundreds of millions from shareholders pays in full for his son's education. Some honesty exists even in theft.

Some say that core morality developed from lots of human interactions. Some say it's God's gift. Just as long as it's there.
--

Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.

--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
New And we continue to disagree
On your first question. Of course I find the second result better. But that result often is not achievable, and once I have convinced myself that it is not achievable in a particular case, settling for the result that I can achieve is better than tilting at windmills.

About the rest, your third point about a "core morality" reflects what I have seen many people claim, and what many obviously want to be true. Unfortunately it does not accord with my experience. You want specific counter-examples? I have met and heard plenty of right-wing people (Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson for instance) who dismiss people like Ralph Nader and Noam Chomsky as "ungodly Communists" despite the fact that they have "wider" moralities. If you believe, as the religious right does, that morality is defined by adherence to a specific religious text, then anything that deviates from the true and narrow (for instance acceptance of homosexuals or abortion) can quite easily get you labelled "evil".

Going further, there are no principles that I can think of which is broad enough to deserve the name "absolute morality". Oh, it is a common conceit to think that there must be. But I doubt that there is any characteristic which is so universal that it can be considered absolute. I certainly have never encountered any that stood up to my examination. And I have looked, starting with a bias for believing that there must be one (and that it furthermore should roughly match what I hold near and dear).

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Tiling at giants that look like windmills
is a superbly moral act, and throughly unpractical. But, I guess, we'll have to keep on disagreeing.

I may question the idea that Falwell and Robertson themselves are guided by their moral principles when they pronounce Nader evil. Not everything a person says is a moral statement.

As to absolute morality - can you imagine a stable society (a stable group of people of any sort) that does not consider some very particular things good when applied to its members? I'd appreciate a counterexample.
--

Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.

--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
New Our moralities are different
I see no particular value in banging my head against a brick wall. If you do, then that is your business.

As for Jerry Falwell, etc, I have no idea what their morality is. However I have personally known very sincere people whose moral code was derived directly from their understanding of the Bible. They didn't respect people whose value systems were more generous - they saw said people as tools of Satan.

As for your "stable society" comment, what characteristic did you want to say is necessary? Thou shalt not kill? Look at Polynesian societies which accepted using cannibalism as a means of population control? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Examine hazing rituals. Etc, etc, etc. Our tendancy is to believe that many things must resemble that with which we are familiar. But the world is stranger than we (or at least I) generally imagine.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Could you explain,
in your own words, the difference between "moral" and "practical"? I would love to hear it.

Polinesian cannibalism seems to be associated with warfare wherever I can find it on the Internet. And we all know that prisoners of war aren't really people, don't we? Can you point me at non-war-related cannibalism?

Hazing rituals? Again, not everything a person does is moral. It's more a case of "I suffered for somebody else's fun, therefore you shall suffer for my enjoyment". Very human and practical, but I doubt that the prerpetrators pause to think about right and wrong (as opposed to pleasant and "cool"). Additionally, in extreme cases (such as gang or cult initiation rituals), people who undergo it are not quite people yet - they have to earn that privilege.

Can't argue about "Tools of Satan". I guess you have me there. My only answer is that such people are a rarity, and, if you get them together in one place, aren't likely to form a stable society.
--

Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.

--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
New non warfare cannibalism, see hindu sects
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

"I hit him so hard in the head his dog shat a turd in the shape of Jesus" Leonard Pine
New Links?
Also, sects fit in the definition of "circles" perfectly.
--

Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.

--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
New links
[link|http://news.tbo.com/news/MGAXM6OXFGD.html|http://news.tbo.com/.../MGAXM6OXFGD.html]
another site
[link|http://www.healing-tao.co.uk/ht_taooftantra.htm|http://www.healing-t...t_taooftantra.htm]
For many this is enlightenment enough. Others continue to surrender: possessions, dwelling, family, becoming Saddhu, beyond ritual. Beyond the beyond, the Aghora sect live tantra \ufffdat the Left Hand of God\ufffd (7), frequenting cremation-grounds, eating human flesh and excrement, having sex with the dead, surrendering all attachment to shorten their chosen path by many incarnations.

thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

"I hit him so hard in the head his dog shat a turd in the shape of Jesus" Leonard Pine
New The report is rife
with references to things like "sin", "forbidden" and "revulsion". They do it specifically because it's wrong.
--

Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.

--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
New good way to untie the mind from humanity
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

"I hit him so hard in the head his dog shat a turd in the shape of Jesus" Leonard Pine
New Explanation
My belief is that people internally have systems of morality. This system doesn't always match what they say, or what they do, but when people see themselves acting in ways that don't match their internal morality, they feel emotions like guilt.

To me, therefore, moral behaviour means behaviour which I think is dictated by the internal sense of morality of the person acting. For instance I consider a lot of what Richard Stallman does to be moral behaviour, because it is motivated by his morality (or appears to be - read what he says) even if the issues involved don't match my sense of right and wrong. I don't consider similar choices on the part of Bob Young to be moral behaviour because his self-described morality is quite different. (He had at one point an excellent talk on why it was in Red Hat's marketing self-interest to act in ways that the FSF considered moral.)

By contrast "practical" means just that, courses of actions that might be indicated because they are doable and not necessarily for any other reason.

As for Polynesian cannibalism, I likewise cannot find any links to what I was thinking of online. My memory, however, is of a series of articles that I had to read once for a philosophy course, in it they described a Polynesian cult on a densely populated island which was highly promiscuous, and then killed the resulting infants as a form of birth control. As you might imagine, the appalling image stuck in my mind...

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
     There is moral relativism and moral relativism - (ben_tilly) - (41)
         Re: There is moral relativism and moral relativism - (rcareaga) - (37)
             You like invoking Godwin, don't you? - (ben_tilly) - (36)
                 Sheesh - (rcareaga) - (4)
                     Oh, I understood it alright - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                         am I assumed, then, - (rcareaga) - (2)
                             Speaking of imputing motives... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                 (shrug) - (rcareaga)
                 Since we're talking Godwin here, - (Arkadiy) - (30)
                     Thank you for the penultimate coffin nail - (Ashton) - (12)
                         Funny you should be talking about this - (drewk) - (11)
                             Too bad he was wrong. - (tseliot) - (10)
                                 No he didnt - (boxley) - (9)
                                     How is e.g. the Lord's Supper about the Law? - (tseliot) - (8)
                                         okay, we can leave Paul out of it - (boxley) - (7)
                                             God didn't destroy the Covenant of Abraham - (orion) - (4)
                                                 the covenant was between G_d and Abraham - (boxley) - (3)
                                                     Jesus included gentiles - (orion)
                                                     Lazarus and the Rich Man - (orion) - (1)
                                                         Re: Lazarus and the Rich Man - (orion)
                                             So what was the reason for his death? - (tseliot) - (1)
                                                 he had foreknowledge all right - (boxley)
                     Where did I indicate that I think society is right? - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                         I've never said you consider the killer society right - (Arkadiy) - (15)
                             Let me turn that around - (ben_tilly) - (14)
                                 Tur(i)n Complete ;-) - (Ashton) - (2)
                                     a lot of it is in humanity itself - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Helping the poor - (orion)
                                 Re: Let me turn that around - (Arkadiy) - (10)
                                     And we continue to disagree - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                                         Tiling at giants that look like windmills - (Arkadiy) - (8)
                                             Our moralities are different - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                                 Could you explain, - (Arkadiy) - (6)
                                                     non warfare cannibalism, see hindu sects -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                                                         Links? - (Arkadiy) - (3)
                                                             links - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                 The report is rife - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                                     good way to untie the mind from humanity -NT - (boxley)
                                                     Explanation - (ben_tilly)
         Re: There is moral relativism and moral relativism - (Ashton)
         #If defs - (boxley) - (1)
             Asking the wrong question - (ben_tilly)

You might, rabbit. You might.
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