Post #236,526
11/30/05 10:08:03 AM
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Re: Actually a pretty good metaphor
Most people most of the time don't need or want to select what gear they're in. s/need or// Well, it does depend if they want to have full control over the vehicle or not. Many people occasionally want to select what gear they're in to improve performance, ie: downshifting to go down a steep grade, downshifting because they're about to pull into the passing lane. Downshifting to go into the passing lane? Some people don't like the loss of control they feel when driving an automatic. Too right I don't. I feel like a passenger. A stick shift forces everyone to decide what to do all the time. Er, yes. You should be doing that anyway. An auto-stick or paddle setup provides a default gear, but allows the driver to over-ride the default. Sorta. A regular automatic -- column or floor shift, no paddles or auto-stick -- does the same, but makes it a little harder to over-ride. It would reduce complexity even further to provide an automatic that only had forward and reverse, and didn't have the option to over-ride the default gear. It would reduce complexity to a safe level to remove the accelerator pedal. ubernostrom seems to be arguing against the stick shift. Everyone else seems to be arguing against the theoretical "forward or reverse only" automatic, and in favor of the auto-stick. Cars != computers, Drook. For one thing, I've never seen anyone drive a computer [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4477388.stm|the wrong way down the M6], killing themselves and others. Folks, a car is not an electronic item; it's a very heavy, very deadly and inherently complex object that exists in a complex environment where a moment's lapse of concentration can mean death and agony for you and those around you. To my mind, anything that makes you pay attention to what the fuck you're doing whilst driving is a good thing, not something to be made "easier".
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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Post #236,529
11/30/05 10:21:53 AM
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that argument doesnt wash
Folks, a car is not an electronic item; it's a very heavy, very deadly and inherently complex object that exists in a complex environment where a moment's lapse of concentration can mean death and agony for you and those around you.
To my mind, anything that makes you pay attention to what the fuck you're doing whilst driving is a good thing, not something to be made "easier". so where is the clutch pedal and how many gears does a locomotive have? thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
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Post #236,538
11/30/05 10:46:35 AM
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Cars are just like trains, Box.
Hadn't you noticed?
Why, only the other day I was driving my train on the railway and I was cut up by some young buck in a riced-up diesel-electric!
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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Post #236,551
11/30/05 12:39:09 PM
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Traction motors == no clutch
And actually, there is this little thing called "transition" where the locomotive switches from driving current to driving voltage into the traction motors, when the thing gets up to speed. In the "olden days" of the F- and E-units, and freight units prior to the EMD GP-35s (and the GE U-25Bs and Cs), transition had to be made manually. While making transition, the locomotive could be heard to audibly pause...just like engaging the clutch, and shifting gears. Indeed, it is a practical analog to gears in an automobile.
Nowadays, all (DC) locomotives make transition automatically. You really can't hear them do it either...it happens quickly and quietly. Just like an automatic transmission! (AC locomotives don't even have a transition, IIRC). Except for the "old heads", most current locomotive engineers don't even know how to make transition manually.
And I dare say, Peter, that they have "full control" over their locomotives....
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,555
11/30/05 12:44:54 PM
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No they don't - the track has control.
Automobiles don't ride on tracks. The deisels in locomotives are classed as "stationary engines" because that's their operating profile (and more optimizable than a non-stationary engine).
Automobiles do not run on tracks. They do not contain "stationary engines" and their operating environment is orders of magnitude more complex.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #236,573
11/30/05 1:26:40 PM
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Erm...Huh?!?
Automobiles do not run on tracks. They do not contain "stationary engines" and their operating environment is orders of magnitude more complex. Have you ever worked on one? Have you ever tried even starting one? You're gonna have a very hard time convincing me (or anybody else that has ever been up close and personal with an SD90MAC) that a 6000bhp mobile power plant is "orders of magnitude more complex" than a car. Sorry, thanks for playing.... jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,575
11/30/05 1:31:36 PM
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Reading with comprehension?
He said the operating environment is much more complex, not the engine itself. Also, he's claiming that the car's operating environment is more complex than the locomotive's operating environment, not that the big honking locomotive engine is more complex than a car.
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Post #236,579
11/30/05 1:37:52 PM
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I guess that depends on what the definition of...
..."operating environment" is.
I took that to mean the localized environemnt of the machine itself, not the exterior environment around the device. I do see your interpretation, however...I wait for Andrew to clarify.
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,584
11/30/05 1:42:54 PM
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Yes, I meant the external environment - sorry to be unclear.
I am sure there's plenty to be concerned about when running a deisel-electric locomotive, but generally busy intersections, and lane changes by untrained drivers with cell phones aren't among them.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #236,612
11/30/05 2:59:25 PM
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Understood. However, you may not have heard about...
...[link|http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-crash24.html|this] The train's engineer, a 30-year veteran with an "impeccable record," according to Pardonnet, told authorities he saw cars on the tracks as he approached the intersection and threw on his emergency brakes before striking the vehicles. He was among those hospitalized.
The speed limit for trains along that stretch is 70 mph, although trains travel an average of about 68 mph there, Pardonnet said.
Marino said cars on the track had played follow-the-leader. "I think someone tried to beat the gates, and a bunch of people followed him," he said. So they do deal with "busy intersections", even if they shouldn't really have to. Unfortunately, most engineers have had some form of grade-crossing accident. In general, they are not at fault; it doesn't, however, make their life after such an "incident" any easier, especially if the collision includes loss-of-life. jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,751
12/1/05 12:12:19 PM
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Trying to stop 21,000,000# plus consist...
(Beware I did not RTFA, if it about commuter train, they are far worse off... fewer contact patches to aid in stopping)
with 12 or 24 (even 36) quarter-sized contact patches (initially until the air brake system generates enough volume and pressure to start stopping the cars too) is like trying to plow New York City during a major snow-storm with a toy beach sand shovel.
@68MPH a consist of 100 cars, each car being quite near ~100 Tons of total weight and the locomotive being 400 tons to 500 tons (sometimes more than one locomotive is at the head end), takes a few feet to stop it, or even slow down.
((100x100)+(450x2))x2,000#=21,800,000#
Let me see, @68MPH with 21.8M#... how many Newtons (Contact Patch downforce on the rail is the limiting factor, but the Brakes also need to produce that amount of braking force) would it need to be able to slow to 0 in ~500ft. Figuring that the cars would start to aid in slowing @ the rate of 2 cars per second. Figuring the amount of time the car gets pushed into the the forward one with the slack, the brakes applying then the slack being taken out the other way)
Ha, the train's last car won't stop for 35 seconds after the locomotive does. But the 2 locomotives cannot generate enough Air Volume or pressure to stop in 500ft which then pushes the locomotive to nearly 1900ft.
So, unless all the brakes on the cars were fitted with electric or instant action (yeah right) air bakes... 500ft cannot be achieve.
Many people forget that trains have a very long reaction time. In fact, you could compare them to Large Oil Super Tankers. You start stopping about 3-10 minutes before you need to be stopped... YMMV.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyFreedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;
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Post #236,873
12/2/05 2:26:10 PM
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It was a commuter train.
In full emergency (or "Big Hole" to the "locals") an F40PH can generate something on the order of 2.3MPH/sec deceleration before wheel slip; the cars are reported to be able to create something like 3MPH/sec. A full air application (like an emergency application) has the cars actually dragging the locomotive.
Now in Chicago, we're famous for the "push-pull" approach to running commuter trains. In general, inbound trains have the loco at the end pushing, while outbound trains have it pulling from the front. This was an outbound train, so the thing was running in the normal direction, and the brake application "stretched" the train. Figure about 3MPH/sec. linear deceleration, and you can see that it still taks a long time to stop such a beast at 68MPH.
As fas as the concept that the "train's last car won't stop for 35 seconds after the locomotive does" on a 100 car consist, that's what the FRED (Flashing Rear End Device) is for (among other things, like relegating the position of brakeman to the dustbin of history). In Big Hole, the FRED dumps air from the back of the train simultaneously, drainig the air pipe from both directions. There is the outside possibility of breaking the train under such conditions, but in a full Emergency application, the engineers simply don't care...all they wanna do is stop the thing, keeping it greasy side down in the process. And if the train does break (in two), then the pipe will drain in 4 places further reducing the aggregate stopping time.
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,912
12/2/05 10:33:26 PM
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FRED... fergot about it.
Also, I forgot that the Cars also run with air applied to keep the brakes off.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyFreedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;
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Post #236,535
11/30/05 10:39:33 AM
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Enjoy it while you can.
Perhaps you've heard about the transmission on the (previous generation?) [link|http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.corvette/browse_thread/thread/149c4374432119f7/515de59b65f02713%23515de59b65f02713?sa=X&oi=groupsr&start=1&num=3|Corvette]? From: acebud...@aol.com (Acebudsie)
Date: 20 Apr 2001 09:52:44 GMT
Subject: 1st to 4th shifting
I just ordered a 2001 Magentic Red coupe and am now hearing about the 1st to 4th shifting restrictions on the 6-speed. Can anyone tell me what this is and how I get rid of it?. What little I know smells like EPA or some other equally intrusive government agency.
From: "hcstock\ufffd" <hcst...@home.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:46:40 GMT
Subject: Re: 1st to 4th shifting
Pardon my ignorance, but it being a six speed I assume it is a manual. How can the car shift or do anything like stated? Is this a six speed automatic?
Thanks,
Curt
From: Mike <m...@mikejaeggi.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:07:57 GMT
Subject: Re: 1st to 4th shifting
It's a manual transmission. It prevents you from shifting into 2nd or 3rd and forces you to shift to 4th.
-Mike, '99 Torch Red Convert It was GM's scheme to get greater fuel economy from the car. That's just the tip of the iceberg. The [link|http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/LexusIS/|2006 Lexus IS] has a radar cruise control option that cuts your speed if it thinks you're too close to the car in front. More features like this will be added to cars for 3 reasons: 1) it drives up the price; 2) it can be touted as a safety feature; 3) it helps advance technologies that will eventually be used to control traffic speeds. People are even working on cars and highways that drive themselves. So enjoy your full row-it-yourself box while you can. :-) Cheers, Scott.
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Post #236,537
11/30/05 10:45:19 AM
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Riiight.
The first time someone crashes with that they'll go "It weren't me, it were my intelligent transmission, ossifer, and I'll see anyone in court what sez different"
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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Post #236,548
11/30/05 12:22:54 PM
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GM used that excuse for years against anti-lock brakes
Their real reason, of course, was that people weren't willing to pay the premium for it. So does your car have anti-lock, Peter? If not, have you ever driven without anti-lock in icy conditions? Would you willingly do so if given the option?
And you didn't answer my [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=236523|earlier question]: Where's your ignition timing control?
===
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Post #236,550
11/30/05 12:37:11 PM
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Icy conditions? Sure, no problem here
it's not like I've not been doing that since I was eight (thanks, Grandfather!).
That's not to say that anti-lock is bad or anything, but driving in icy conditions is a skill, and you need it no matter what kind of brakes you have. ABS makes your car a little more forgiving, but not much. If you don't slow down, you'll just have a controlled drive into the car in front of you instead of an uncontrolled drive. No matter what, you're going to end up either in the ditch or hitting the car in front of you. Even ABS brakes don't help much when you're on black ice.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #236,552
11/30/05 12:39:53 PM
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You can't steer while locked up
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
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Post #236,556
11/30/05 12:46:50 PM
11/30/05 1:01:32 PM
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Yeah, and on black ice or hydroplaning
you can't steer when you're not locked up either.
ABS will help when hydroplaning, but not on black ice. That's why it's so dangerous, and features prominently in every driver's license test in Canada, 'cause it's not like there's any shortage of black ice in this country.
A lot of the time, if you're on a highway and you hit a patch, whether you wipe out or not has almost nothing to do with the driver and everything to do with dumb luck.
Like I said, it's not like I'm saying ABS is bad, but if you need it to drive in icy conditions then you shouldn't be driving in icy conditions.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by jake123
Nov. 30, 2005, 01:01:32 PM EST
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Post #236,559
11/30/05 1:00:26 PM
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Congratulations, you've described the 1% case
First, in those cases you can't steer without anti-lock, so it's not an argument against it anyway.
But more importantly, in cases of reduced traction, there are very few people who can outperform modern anti-lock. And you're not one of them. So for you and me and most everyone else who don't make our living as professional drivers; for those of us who don't regularly practice panic braking on wet, off-camber turns; anti-lock will nearly always be no worse than not having it, while frequently being far superior.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
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Post #236,562
11/30/05 1:05:19 PM
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Not 1% up here, Drew.
I got to look at quite a few nice patches on the streets around here after the freeze up last night. The one on the corner of Wellington and Queen is a really nice one, about eight feet by fifteen feet, covering the northwest corner of the intersection. I'm sure it's been salted now, but people going down Queen last night to catch the ferry to the island (or just heading downtown for a drink) would all have hit that patch.
P.S. read the edit for more on my point of view on ABS.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #236,581
11/30/05 1:38:07 PM
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Of course I have antilock.
And traction control. Which I turn off in snow.
ABS doesn't stop you quicker, by the way. I also turn it off in endemically slippery conditions, because there's nothing worse than a momentary lock on one wheel causing the ABS to kick in with it's FUCKYOURPADSFUCKYOURPADSFUCKYOURPADS racket over bugger all. Brakes are more-or-less useless in really slick conditions, anyhoo.
And I don't give a fuck about my ignition timing control, because I don't turn the ignition whilst the car is moving.
Peter
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Post #236,619
11/30/05 3:20:44 PM
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Re: Of course I have antilock.
And I don't give a fuck about my ignition timing control, because I don't turn the ignition whilst the car is moving. Your car's computer does, constantly, just like it controls shifting in the transmission in most modern vehicles with automatics. --
Steve
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu]
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Post #236,623
11/30/05 3:26:01 PM
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and early autos did have ignition control . . .
. . generally a separate lever in the center of the steering wheel. This was replaced by the centrifugal and vacuum advances built into the distributor.
This is not a problem because it responds pretty much instantaneously to current engine conditions. The probalem with automatic transmissions is that they cannot anticipate the intended actions of the driver and they're slower to respond to current conditions and often wrong.
Of course not everyone drives as aggressively as I do so many are happy with the automatic.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #236,627
11/30/05 3:32:11 PM
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Now I understand the helmet!
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #236,629
11/30/05 3:38:31 PM
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Yup, that was my point
Ignition timing used to be a manual process. And when they figured out a way to automate it, there were people who criticized the loss of control. And some of them were even right, for a while. Until they improved the performance of the automatic systems.
So if your issue with an automatic is that it doesn't react quickly enough -- which you, Andrew, seem to be saying -- then you may be right. Or you may think you're a better, more agressive driver than you really are. (You did say you haven't felt the need for the "performance" switch yet, right?)
But if your position is that stick is better because it demands more attention, then you should also be in favor of manually controlling the ignition timing. And the fuel richness. And the injector timing. And ... and ... and ...
===
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Post #236,633
11/30/05 3:46:36 PM
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If you want to control *anything*...
...you want to control *everything*?
Blimey.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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Post #236,638
11/30/05 3:50:43 PM
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You didn't say, "This is one thing I'd like to control."
You said, "This is something that everyone, especially inattentive drivers, should be forced to control, as it will demand more attention from them." I'm just suggesting other things that would demand more attention.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
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Post #236,640
11/30/05 3:56:41 PM
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Programmers. So damned literal all the time.
I had a situation today where I had to explain (to a developer) that saying "Bad format at line XXXX" wasn't helpful, as the format could have been wrong in at least a half-dozen different ways, and line XXXX could be anywhere in a three-million-line-long text file, and the thing causing indigestion at line XXXX could have been at line YYYY, also anywhere in a three-million-line-long text file.
And I didn't say that, anyway. I said that it demands more attention on the driving situation at hand, because it forces you to pay more attention to the speed and situation of your vehicle.
Which is NOT what you just said that I said.
So neener.
I'm so going to tip you in that damn pool next time, permissions-boi.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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Post #236,663
11/30/05 5:22:58 PM
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But it doesn't
I said that it demands more attention on the driving situation at hand, because it forces you to pay more attention to the speed and situation of your vehicle. No, it demands you pay attention to the speed and situation of your engine and transmission. This is related to the speed and situation of your vehicle. The Toyota minivan I rented last weekend ran so quietly I could not have shifted without staring at the tach. I never knew what gear it was in, and frankly didn't care. There was one point when I wanted to merge and knew I'd need to drop a gear. I just floored it a half-second before I knew I'd want to speed up. So by having a grasp of my speed and situation, I was able to react appropriately. Without a stick-shift. ===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
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Post #236,641
11/30/05 4:00:10 PM
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No, I'm not that much of a control freak.
My point is that an automatic transmission cannot anticipate my needs, in fact it's a second or two behind. I can anticipate my needs and see that my engine speed and gearing will be what I need them to be when I need them.
The Saturn's greater engine power combined with much better selections by the automatic transmission is a vast improvement over the Escort, but it's still sometimes messing around doing the wrong thing for a second or two and has to change its mind.
Automatic ignition timing and injection control are better than I'd want to bother to be at their job, so I'm perfectly happy to let them have those functions.
Now, for my real complaint. This Saturn is the first car I've had with an alarm system built in. Now that stupid thing is a TOTAL pain in the ass.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #236,701
12/1/05 12:08:14 AM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #236700 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=236700|ICLRPD]
--
Steve
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu]
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Post #236,582
11/30/05 1:38:08 PM
11/30/05 1:39:51 PM
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Dupe
I must have the shakes, or something.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Edited by pwhysall
Nov. 30, 2005, 01:39:50 PM EST
Edited by pwhysall
Nov. 30, 2005, 01:39:51 PM EST
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Post #236,554
11/30/05 12:43:30 PM
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I'm not sure I want a "highway that drives itself" ;-)
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,594
11/30/05 2:02:28 PM
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Luddite. ________________________________________________;-)
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Post #236,650
11/30/05 4:36:05 PM
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I do
or rather, I want a little 'auto-creep' mode that locks onto vehicle ahead and maintains distance when travelling below 15 mph.
How hard can that be?
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #236,667
11/30/05 5:35:48 PM
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That I don't want
I like looking about 5 cars ahead then letting a gap open up when local traffic goes faster, and close down when traffic slows.
It is amazing how much I can avoid touching gas or brakes by doing this. Giving me much better mileage and less wear.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #236,673
11/30/05 5:52:40 PM
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But if *everyone* had that feature ...
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
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Post #236,675
11/30/05 6:19:43 PM
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Then we would all get car sick
Or I would at least. Because people ahead speed up and slow down, and I couldn't take matching their motions exactly.
Also if you watch, the "stops" in stop and go traffic seem to get started because someone tried to do a lane change too late. They stopped, then people stop behind them, and you get a wave going backwards. Having everyone match the car in front of you wouldn't help with that.
But I would like it if the rule wasn't "constant distance" but rather "distance depending on speed". That would smooth things out.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #236,678
11/30/05 6:24:01 PM
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I assumed distance by speed
Most of the "smart highway" plans assume this, and show how great the traffic flow is. What they always fail to mention is a tragedy of the commons problem. Put one car in the mix that isn't using the same system as everyone else and the whole thing is hosed. IOW it's the kind of thing that will only work if it's mandated.
Whether that is likely to happen or not is left to the reader.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #236,679
11/30/05 6:28:00 PM
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I think it is OK if some cars don't follow the rules...
I remember seeing some simulations that said that if 30% of cars were using the technology, that you got some nice improvement.
I remember thinking that if the highways became a bit better, a lot of people would switch back to them for their commute, and they would get worse again.
I've never seen anyone try to quantify that though.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #236,670
11/30/05 5:43:20 PM
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Actually, I'd just as soon the highway stays put....
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,734
12/1/05 9:11:31 AM
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But, The Roads Must Roll.
-----------------------------------------
No new taxes.
--George H. W. Bush
We don't torture.
--George W. Bush
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Post #236,737
12/1/05 9:52:07 AM
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Ever on and on.
Damn rollers. So prone to sabotage.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #236,549
11/30/05 12:29:07 PM
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(somewhat) Rhetorical question:
Well, it does depend if they want to have full control over the vehicle or not. So when was the last time you had "full control" of your C compiler, for example? (By "full control", I mean specifying all the myriad switches explicitly). Especially in a Micros~1 compiler? Cmon, you know you use the wizards, dialogs, etc.... jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,567
11/30/05 1:14:07 PM
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Peter, on this topic you are an idiot
You constantly assert that manual control is good because it makes you pay attention.
But it makes you pay attention to the wrong thing.
I'd prefer to have a driver going through turns etc with both hands on the steering wheel and full attention on the road to one who has one hand on the wheel, one on the stick, and attention divided between the road outside and the mechanics of shifting. Yes, I know that with a little practice you barely think about the process of shifting. But even so, during the shifting process you have significantly less control of the car than when you're not shifting.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #236,574
11/30/05 1:29:57 PM
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This does rather remind me of Todd's many diatribes...
...on why (he thinks) C++ suxors....
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #236,576
11/30/05 1:32:59 PM
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Complete piffle.
In order to assess what gear you should be in at any given time, you have to plan ahead and pay close attention to your speed, the speed of the vehicles around you, the road conditions and any hazards in the vicinity.
An automatic frees you from this restriction.
I leave it to you whether this is a good, or a bad thing.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #236,589
11/30/05 1:52:23 PM
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So what you're saying is...
that you prefer a manual because otherwise your concern for the optimal performance of your precious car won't force you to look around and pay attention to traffic?
Well when I'm driving, I'm going to look around and pay attention to traffic no matter what car I'm driving, because I like remaining alive! I don't need concern about nursemaiding my car to encourage me to do the right thing!
If this is an issue for you, then I likewise want you to drive a manual.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #236,596
11/30/05 2:10:52 PM
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If you want to reframe what I said without reading it, yes.
Looking at traffic is fine, but you need to be aware of your own speed and ability to accelerate or stop relative to it. This is much easier to do in a manual, because you know what gear you're in and what your car can do in that gear. Or, you should. Driving an auto, I'm constantly looking at the dash to see what the fook the thing's going to do when I press the loud pedal, because it's up'n'down the box without my interference.
And if you think it's about "optimal performance" or "nursemaiding" then you're barking up the wrong strawmantree.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #236,666
11/30/05 5:32:49 PM
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I read it
And I think that if you're driving in a way where you need to know your car's exact capabilities to succeed, then you're driving too aggressively.
Back off. Give some space.
Also I should note that with a modest amount of experience you can tell roughly how fast your car is going without relying on the speedometer or knowledge of what gear you are in. Not exactly, but close enough for normal driving conditions.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #236,590
11/30/05 1:53:32 PM
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And I've already pointed out that people are different.
What may be an acceptable level of involvement for you may be completely overwhelming to someone else.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #236,577
11/30/05 1:33:00 PM
11/30/05 1:39:13 PM
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Dupe
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Edited by pwhysall
Nov. 30, 2005, 01:39:13 PM EST
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Post #236,624
11/30/05 3:28:04 PM
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Looks like Peter keeps double-clutching his mouse
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #236,684
11/30/05 8:23:56 PM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #236683 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=236683|ICLRPD]
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
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Post #236,625
11/30/05 3:30:16 PM
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Does FULL control over vehicle include
Manually turning off the turn signals?
Manually turning on/off the wipers? (I refering to each swipe, not on with rain off when no rain)
I like manually shifting. But I now drive an automatic. It's nice to be able to concentrate on surrounding traffic without having to worry about shifting. And I definitely concur with the comments about traffic. Much rather have automatic.
Only place manual beats auto is when stuck in snowbank.
Sometimes is best to let the car decide while you concentrate on the surrounding drivers.
Let the car control shifting, ingition timing, turning off blinkers, cleaning the windshield. I'll watch out for the idiot on the cell phone.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #236,648
11/30/05 4:31:55 PM
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Yep, downshifting
Many people occasionally want to select what gear they're in to improve performance, ie: downshifting to go down a steep grade, downshifting because they're about to pull into the passing lane. Downshifting to go into the passing lane?
By downshifting you can accelerate quicker, thus passing the slow car faster. Don't want to stay in the oncoming traffic's lane any longer than you have to :-) [link|http://www.standardshift.com/faq.html|Learn to Drive a Car with a Manual Transmission] Downshifting
You'll want to downshift when heading down a steep slope to reduce riding the brakes or when greater acceleration is needed. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #236,649
11/30/05 4:34:38 PM
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My auto has a button just for that
and hills I think.
Its a pseudo-stick - shifter on floor, with a handy little thumb button that, when clicked, drops you down a gear (prevents overdrive gear - something like that).
Worked great in the mountains in Denver. Haven't had call for it here in the flats.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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