GM used that excuse for years against anti-lock brakes

Post #236,548 by drewk 11/30/05 12:22:54 PM Reply	GM used that excuse for years against anti-lock brakes Their real reason, of course, was that people weren't willing to pay the premium for it. So does your car have anti-lock, Peter? If not, have you ever driven without anti-lock in icy conditions? Would you willingly do so if given the option? And you didn't answer my [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=236523\|earlier question]: Where's your ignition timing control? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,550 by jake123 11/30/05 12:37:11 PM Reply	Icy conditions? Sure, no problem here it's not like I've not been doing that since I was eight (thanks, Grandfather!). That's not to say that anti-lock is bad or anything, but driving in icy conditions is a skill, and you need it no matter what kind of brakes you have. ABS makes your car a little more forgiving, but not much. If you don't slow down, you'll just have a controlled drive into the car in front of you instead of an uncontrolled drive. No matter what, you're going to end up either in the ditch or hitting the car in front of you. Even ABS brakes don't help much when you're on black ice. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #236,552 by drewk 11/30/05 12:39:53 PM Reply	You can't steer while locked up === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,556 by jake123 11/30/05 12:46:50 PM 11/30/05 1:01:32 PM Reply	Yeah, and on black ice or hydroplaning you can't steer when you're not locked up either. ABS will help when hydroplaning, but not on black ice. That's why it's so dangerous, and features prominently in every driver's license test in Canada, 'cause it's not like there's any shortage of black ice in this country. A lot of the time, if you're on a highway and you hit a patch, whether you wipe out or not has almost nothing to do with the driver and everything to do with dumb luck. Like I said, it's not like I'm saying ABS is bad, but if you need it to drive in icy conditions then you shouldn't be driving in icy conditions. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by jake123 Nov. 30, 2005, 01:01:32 PM EST Expand All History
Post #236,559 by drewk 11/30/05 1:00:26 PM Reply	Congratulations, you've described the 1% case First, in those cases you can't steer without anti-lock, so it's not an argument against it anyway. But more importantly, in cases of reduced traction, there are very few people who can outperform modern anti-lock. And you're not one of them. So for you and me and most everyone else who don't make our living as professional drivers; for those of us who don't regularly practice panic braking on wet, off-camber turns; anti-lock will nearly always be no worse than not having it, while frequently being far superior. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,562 by jake123 11/30/05 1:05:19 PM Reply	Not 1% up here, Drew. I got to look at quite a few nice patches on the streets around here after the freeze up last night. The one on the corner of Wellington and Queen is a really nice one, about eight feet by fifteen feet, covering the northwest corner of the intersection. I'm sure it's been salted now, but people going down Queen last night to catch the ferry to the island (or just heading downtown for a drink) would all have hit that patch. P.S. read the edit for more on my point of view on ABS. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #236,581 by pwhysall 11/30/05 1:38:07 PM Reply	Of course I have antilock. And traction control. Which I turn off in snow. ABS doesn't stop you quicker, by the way. I also turn it off in endemically slippery conditions, because there's nothing worse than a momentary lock on one wheel causing the ABS to kick in with it's FUCKYOURPADSFUCKYOURPADSFUCKYOURPADS racket over bugger all. Brakes are more-or-less useless in really slick conditions, anyhoo. And I don't give a fuck about my ignition timing control, because I don't turn the ignition whilst the car is moving. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,619 by Steve Lowe 11/30/05 3:20:44 PM Reply	Re: Of course I have antilock. And I don't give a fuck about my ignition timing control, because I don't turn the ignition whilst the car is moving. Your car's computer does, constantly, just like it controls shifting in the transmission in most modern vehicles with automatics. -- Steve [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu]
Post #236,623 by Andrew Grygus 11/30/05 3:26:01 PM Reply	and early autos did have ignition control . . . . . generally a separate lever in the center of the steering wheel. This was replaced by the centrifugal and vacuum advances built into the distributor. This is not a problem because it responds pretty much instantaneously to current engine conditions. The probalem with automatic transmissions is that they cannot anticipate the intended actions of the driver and they're slower to respond to current conditions and often wrong. Of course not everyone drives as aggressively as I do so many are happy with the automatic. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,627 by jbrabeck 11/30/05 3:32:11 PM Reply	Now I understand the helmet! A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #236,629 by drewk 11/30/05 3:38:31 PM Reply	Yup, that was my point Ignition timing used to be a manual process. And when they figured out a way to automate it, there were people who criticized the loss of control. And some of them were even right, for a while. Until they improved the performance of the automatic systems. So if your issue with an automatic is that it doesn't react quickly enough -- which you, Andrew, seem to be saying -- then you may be right. Or you may think you're a better, more agressive driver than you really are. (You did say you haven't felt the need for the "performance" switch yet, right?) But if your position is that stick is better because it demands more attention, then you should also be in favor of manually controlling the ignition timing. And the fuel richness. And the injector timing. And ... and ... and ... === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,633 by pwhysall 11/30/05 3:46:36 PM Reply	If you want to control anything... ...you want to control everything? Blimey. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,638 by drewk 11/30/05 3:50:43 PM Reply	You didn't say, "This is one thing I'd like to control." You said, "This is something that everyone, especially inattentive drivers, should be forced to control, as it will demand more attention from them." I'm just suggesting other things that would demand more attention. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,640 by pwhysall 11/30/05 3:56:41 PM Reply	Programmers. So damned literal all the time. I had a situation today where I had to explain (to a developer) that saying "Bad format at line XXXX" wasn't helpful, as the format could have been wrong in at least a half-dozen different ways, and line XXXX could be anywhere in a three-million-line-long text file, and the thing causing indigestion at line XXXX could have been at line YYYY, also anywhere in a three-million-line-long text file. And I didn't say that, anyway. I said that it demands more attention on the driving situation at hand, because it forces you to pay more attention to the speed and situation of your vehicle. Which is NOT what you just said that I said. So neener. I'm so going to tip you in that damn pool next time, permissions-boi. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,663 by drewk 11/30/05 5:22:58 PM Reply	But it doesn't I said that it demands more attention on the driving situation at hand, because it forces you to pay more attention to the speed and situation of your vehicle. No, it demands you pay attention to the speed and situation of your engine and transmission. This is related to the speed and situation of your vehicle. The Toyota minivan I rented last weekend ran so quietly I could not have shifted without staring at the tach. I never knew what gear it was in, and frankly didn't care. There was one point when I wanted to merge and knew I'd need to drop a gear. I just floored it a half-second before I knew I'd want to speed up. So by having a grasp of my speed and situation, I was able to react appropriately. Without a stick-shift. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,641 by Andrew Grygus 11/30/05 4:00:10 PM Reply	No, I'm not that much of a control freak. My point is that an automatic transmission cannot anticipate my needs, in fact it's a second or two behind. I can anticipate my needs and see that my engine speed and gearing will be what I need them to be when I need them. The Saturn's greater engine power combined with much better selections by the automatic transmission is a vast improvement over the Escort, but it's still sometimes messing around doing the wrong thing for a second or two and has to change its mind. Automatic ignition timing and injection control are better than I'd want to bother to be at their job, so I'm perfectly happy to let them have those functions. Now, for my real complaint. This Saturn is the first car I've had with an alarm system built in. Now that stupid thing is a TOTAL pain in the ass. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,701 by Steve Lowe 12/1/05 12:08:14 AM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #236700 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=236700\|ICLRPD] -- Steve [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu]
Post #236,582 by pwhysall 11/30/05 1:38:08 PM 11/30/05 1:39:51 PM Reply	Dupe I must have the shakes, or something. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall Nov. 30, 2005, 01:39:50 PM EST Edited by pwhysall Nov. 30, 2005, 01:39:51 PM EST Expand All History

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