Gentle(men|women), I present to you: A Big Hairy Puff

Post #236,457 by pwhysall 11/29/05 4:05:06 PM Reply	Gentle(men\|women), I present to you: A Big Hairy Puff [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/content/110808113602252329/\|http://www.thetrutha...0808113602252329/] Aw, diddums, is ver big nasty motor wotor car too complimicated for oo wiv a manual gearbox? snicker Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,458 by Andrew Grygus 11/29/05 4:24:00 PM 11/29/05 4:25:15 PM Reply	The automatic transmission is an abomination. By time it figures out what it thinks I want to do it's already too late - even if it did guess right, which is rare. I could do with a whole lot less of all that other crap the article mentions too. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus Nov. 29, 2005, 04:25:15 PM EST Expand All History
Post #236,459 by admin 11/29/05 4:29:26 PM Reply	No, no, no, you don't understand. Those automatic shifting parameters are sane defaults... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #236,460 by SpiceWare 11/29/05 4:31:21 PM Reply	LOL Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #236,464 by Another Scott 11/29/05 4:56:29 PM Reply	:-D
Post #236,470 by Ashton 11/29/05 5:08:57 PM Reply	IFS!___IFS!
Post #236,521 by drewk 11/30/05 9:47:41 AM Reply	Actually a pretty good metaphor Most people most of the time don't need or want to select what gear they're in. Many people occasionally want to select what gear they're in to improve performance, ie: downshifting to go down a steep grade, downshifting because they're about to pull into the passing lane. Some people don't like the loss of control they feel when driving an automatic. A stick shift forces everyone to decide what to do all the time. An auto-stick or paddle setup provides a default gear, but allows the driver to over-ride the default. A regular automatic -- column or floor shift, no paddles or auto-stick -- does the same, but makes it a little harder to over-ride. It would reduce complexity even further to provide an automatic that only had forward and reverse, and didn't have the option to over-ride the default gear. ubernostrom seems to be arguing against the stick shift. Everyone else seems to be arguing against the theoretical "forward or reverse only" automatic, and in favor of the auto-stick. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,526 by pwhysall 11/30/05 10:08:03 AM Reply	Re: Actually a pretty good metaphor Most people most of the time don't need or want to select what gear they're in. s/need or// Well, it does depend if they want to have full control over the vehicle or not. Many people occasionally want to select what gear they're in to improve performance, ie: downshifting to go down a steep grade, downshifting because they're about to pull into the passing lane. Downshifting to go into the passing lane? Some people don't like the loss of control they feel when driving an automatic. Too right I don't. I feel like a passenger. A stick shift forces everyone to decide what to do all the time. Er, yes. You should be doing that anyway. An auto-stick or paddle setup provides a default gear, but allows the driver to over-ride the default. Sorta. A regular automatic -- column or floor shift, no paddles or auto-stick -- does the same, but makes it a little harder to over-ride. It would reduce complexity even further to provide an automatic that only had forward and reverse, and didn't have the option to over-ride the default gear. It would reduce complexity to a safe level to remove the accelerator pedal. ubernostrom seems to be arguing against the stick shift. Everyone else seems to be arguing against the theoretical "forward or reverse only" automatic, and in favor of the auto-stick. Cars != computers, Drook. For one thing, I've never seen anyone drive a computer [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4477388.stm\|the wrong way down the M6], killing themselves and others. Folks, a car is not an electronic item; it's a very heavy, very deadly and inherently complex object that exists in a complex environment where a moment's lapse of concentration can mean death and agony for you and those around you. To my mind, anything that makes you pay attention to what the fuck you're doing whilst driving is a good thing, not something to be made "easier". Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,529 by boxley 11/30/05 10:21:53 AM Reply	that argument doesnt wash Folks, a car is not an electronic item; it's a very heavy, very deadly and inherently complex object that exists in a complex environment where a moment's lapse of concentration can mean death and agony for you and those around you. To my mind, anything that makes you pay attention to what the fuck you're doing whilst driving is a good thing, not something to be made "easier". so where is the clutch pedal and how many gears does a locomotive have? thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #236,538 by pwhysall 11/30/05 10:46:35 AM Reply	Cars are just like trains, Box. Hadn't you noticed? Why, only the other day I was driving my train on the railway and I was cut up by some young buck in a riced-up diesel-electric! Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,551 by jb4 11/30/05 12:39:09 PM Reply	Traction motors == no clutch And actually, there is this little thing called "transition" where the locomotive switches from driving current to driving voltage into the traction motors, when the thing gets up to speed. In the "olden days" of the F- and E-units, and freight units prior to the EMD GP-35s (and the GE U-25Bs and Cs), transition had to be made manually. While making transition, the locomotive could be heard to audibly pause...just like engaging the clutch, and shifting gears. Indeed, it is a practical analog to gears in an automobile. Nowadays, all (DC) locomotives make transition automatically. You really can't hear them do it either...it happens quickly and quietly. Just like an automatic transmission! (AC locomotives don't even have a transition, IIRC). Except for the "old heads", most current locomotive engineers don't even know how to make transition manually. And I dare say, Peter, that they have "full control" over their locomotives.... jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,555 by Andrew Grygus 11/30/05 12:44:54 PM Reply	No they don't - the track has control. Automobiles don't ride on tracks. The deisels in locomotives are classed as "stationary engines" because that's their operating profile (and more optimizable than a non-stationary engine). Automobiles do not run on tracks. They do not contain "stationary engines" and their operating environment is orders of magnitude more complex. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,573 by jb4 11/30/05 1:26:40 PM Reply	Erm...Huh?!? Automobiles do not run on tracks. They do not contain "stationary engines" and their operating environment is orders of magnitude more complex. Have you ever worked on one? Have you ever tried even starting one? You're gonna have a very hard time convincing me (or anybody else that has ever been up close and personal with an SD90MAC) that a 6000bhp mobile power plant is "orders of magnitude more complex" than a car. Sorry, thanks for playing.... jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,575 by jake123 11/30/05 1:31:36 PM Reply	Reading with comprehension? He said the operating environment is much more complex, not the engine itself. Also, he's claiming that the car's operating environment is more complex than the locomotive's operating environment, not that the big honking locomotive engine is more complex than a car. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #236,579 by jb4 11/30/05 1:37:52 PM Reply	I guess that depends on what the definition of... ..."operating environment" is. I took that to mean the localized environemnt of the machine itself, not the exterior environment around the device. I do see your interpretation, however...I wait for Andrew to clarify. jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,584 by Andrew Grygus 11/30/05 1:42:54 PM Reply	Yes, I meant the external environment - sorry to be unclear. I am sure there's plenty to be concerned about when running a deisel-electric locomotive, but generally busy intersections, and lane changes by untrained drivers with cell phones aren't among them. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,612 by jb4 11/30/05 2:59:25 PM Reply	Understood. However, you may not have heard about... ...[link\|http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-crash24.html\|this] The train's engineer, a 30-year veteran with an "impeccable record," according to Pardonnet, told authorities he saw cars on the tracks as he approached the intersection and threw on his emergency brakes before striking the vehicles. He was among those hospitalized. The speed limit for trains along that stretch is 70 mph, although trains travel an average of about 68 mph there, Pardonnet said. Marino said cars on the track had played follow-the-leader. "I think someone tried to beat the gates, and a bunch of people followed him," he said. So they do deal with "busy intersections", even if they shouldn't really have to. Unfortunately, most engineers have had some form of grade-crossing accident. In general, they are not at fault; it doesn't, however, make their life after such an "incident" any easier, especially if the collision includes loss-of-life. jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,751 by folkert 12/1/05 12:12:19 PM Reply	Trying to stop 21,000,000# plus consist... (Beware I did not RTFA, if it about commuter train, they are far worse off... fewer contact patches to aid in stopping) with 12 or 24 (even 36) quarter-sized contact patches (initially until the air brake system generates enough volume and pressure to start stopping the cars too) is like trying to plow New York City during a major snow-storm with a toy beach sand shovel. @68MPH a consist of 100 cars, each car being quite near ~100 Tons of total weight and the locomotive being 400 tons to 500 tons (sometimes more than one locomotive is at the head end), takes a few feet to stop it, or even slow down. ((100x100)+(450x2))x2,000#=21,800,000# Let me see, @68MPH with 21.8M#... how many Newtons (Contact Patch downforce on the rail is the limiting factor, but the Brakes also need to produce that amount of braking force) would it need to be able to slow to 0 in ~500ft. Figuring that the cars would start to aid in slowing @ the rate of 2 cars per second. Figuring the amount of time the car gets pushed into the the forward one with the slack, the brakes applying then the slack being taken out the other way) Ha, the train's last car won't stop for 35 seconds after the locomotive does. But the 2 locomotives cannot generate enough Air Volume or pressure to stop in 500ft which then pushes the locomotive to nearly 1900ft. So, unless all the brakes on the cars were fitted with electric or instant action (yeah right) air bakes... 500ft cannot be achieve. Many people forget that trains have a very long reaction time. In fact, you could compare them to Large Oil Super Tankers. You start stopping about 3-10 minutes before you need to be stopped... YMMV. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #236,873 by jb4 12/2/05 2:26:10 PM Reply	It was a commuter train. In full emergency (or "Big Hole" to the "locals") an F40PH can generate something on the order of 2.3MPH/sec deceleration before wheel slip; the cars are reported to be able to create something like 3MPH/sec. A full air application (like an emergency application) has the cars actually dragging the locomotive. Now in Chicago, we're famous for the "push-pull" approach to running commuter trains. In general, inbound trains have the loco at the end pushing, while outbound trains have it pulling from the front. This was an outbound train, so the thing was running in the normal direction, and the brake application "stretched" the train. Figure about 3MPH/sec. linear deceleration, and you can see that it still taks a long time to stop such a beast at 68MPH. As fas as the concept that the "train's last car won't stop for 35 seconds after the locomotive does" on a 100 car consist, that's what the FRED (Flashing Rear End Device) is for (among other things, like relegating the position of brakeman to the dustbin of history). In Big Hole, the FRED dumps air from the back of the train simultaneously, drainig the air pipe from both directions. There is the outside possibility of breaking the train under such conditions, but in a full Emergency application, the engineers simply don't care...all they wanna do is stop the thing, keeping it greasy side down in the process. And if the train does break (in two), then the pipe will drain in 4 places further reducing the aggregate stopping time. jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,912 by folkert 12/2/05 10:33:26 PM Reply	FRED... fergot about it. Also, I forgot that the Cars also run with air applied to keep the brakes off. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #236,535 by Another Scott 11/30/05 10:39:33 AM Reply	Enjoy it while you can. Perhaps you've heard about the transmission on the (previous generation?) [link\|http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.corvette/browse_thread/thread/149c4374432119f7/515de59b65f02713%23515de59b65f02713?sa=X&oi=groupsr&start=1&num=3\|Corvette]? From: acebud...@aol.com (Acebudsie) Date: 20 Apr 2001 09:52:44 GMT Subject: 1st to 4th shifting I just ordered a 2001 Magentic Red coupe and am now hearing about the 1st to 4th shifting restrictions on the 6-speed. Can anyone tell me what this is and how I get rid of it?. What little I know smells like EPA or some other equally intrusive government agency. From: "hcstock\ufffd" <hcst...@home.com> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:46:40 GMT Subject: Re: 1st to 4th shifting Pardon my ignorance, but it being a six speed I assume it is a manual. How can the car shift or do anything like stated? Is this a six speed automatic? Thanks, Curt From: Mike <m...@mikejaeggi.com> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:07:57 GMT Subject: Re: 1st to 4th shifting It's a manual transmission. It prevents you from shifting into 2nd or 3rd and forces you to shift to 4th. -Mike, '99 Torch Red Convert It was GM's scheme to get greater fuel economy from the car. That's just the tip of the iceberg. The [link\|http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/LexusIS/\|2006 Lexus IS] has a radar cruise control option that cuts your speed if it thinks you're too close to the car in front. More features like this will be added to cars for 3 reasons: 1) it drives up the price; 2) it can be touted as a safety feature; 3) it helps advance technologies that will eventually be used to control traffic speeds. People are even working on cars and highways that drive themselves. So enjoy your full row-it-yourself box while you can. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #236,537 by pwhysall 11/30/05 10:45:19 AM Reply	Riiight. The first time someone crashes with that they'll go "It weren't me, it were my intelligent transmission, ossifer, and I'll see anyone in court what sez different" Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,548 by drewk 11/30/05 12:22:54 PM Reply	GM used that excuse for years against anti-lock brakes Their real reason, of course, was that people weren't willing to pay the premium for it. So does your car have anti-lock, Peter? If not, have you ever driven without anti-lock in icy conditions? Would you willingly do so if given the option? And you didn't answer my [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=236523\|earlier question]: Where's your ignition timing control? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,550 by jake123 11/30/05 12:37:11 PM Reply	Icy conditions? Sure, no problem here it's not like I've not been doing that since I was eight (thanks, Grandfather!). That's not to say that anti-lock is bad or anything, but driving in icy conditions is a skill, and you need it no matter what kind of brakes you have. ABS makes your car a little more forgiving, but not much. If you don't slow down, you'll just have a controlled drive into the car in front of you instead of an uncontrolled drive. No matter what, you're going to end up either in the ditch or hitting the car in front of you. Even ABS brakes don't help much when you're on black ice. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #236,552 by drewk 11/30/05 12:39:53 PM Reply	You can't steer while locked up === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,556 by jake123 11/30/05 12:46:50 PM 11/30/05 1:01:32 PM Reply	Yeah, and on black ice or hydroplaning you can't steer when you're not locked up either. ABS will help when hydroplaning, but not on black ice. That's why it's so dangerous, and features prominently in every driver's license test in Canada, 'cause it's not like there's any shortage of black ice in this country. A lot of the time, if you're on a highway and you hit a patch, whether you wipe out or not has almost nothing to do with the driver and everything to do with dumb luck. Like I said, it's not like I'm saying ABS is bad, but if you need it to drive in icy conditions then you shouldn't be driving in icy conditions. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by jake123 Nov. 30, 2005, 01:01:32 PM EST Expand All History
Post #236,559 by drewk 11/30/05 1:00:26 PM Reply	Congratulations, you've described the 1% case First, in those cases you can't steer without anti-lock, so it's not an argument against it anyway. But more importantly, in cases of reduced traction, there are very few people who can outperform modern anti-lock. And you're not one of them. So for you and me and most everyone else who don't make our living as professional drivers; for those of us who don't regularly practice panic braking on wet, off-camber turns; anti-lock will nearly always be no worse than not having it, while frequently being far superior. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,562 by jake123 11/30/05 1:05:19 PM Reply	Not 1% up here, Drew. I got to look at quite a few nice patches on the streets around here after the freeze up last night. The one on the corner of Wellington and Queen is a really nice one, about eight feet by fifteen feet, covering the northwest corner of the intersection. I'm sure it's been salted now, but people going down Queen last night to catch the ferry to the island (or just heading downtown for a drink) would all have hit that patch. P.S. read the edit for more on my point of view on ABS. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #236,581 by pwhysall 11/30/05 1:38:07 PM Reply	Of course I have antilock. And traction control. Which I turn off in snow. ABS doesn't stop you quicker, by the way. I also turn it off in endemically slippery conditions, because there's nothing worse than a momentary lock on one wheel causing the ABS to kick in with it's FUCKYOURPADSFUCKYOURPADSFUCKYOURPADS racket over bugger all. Brakes are more-or-less useless in really slick conditions, anyhoo. And I don't give a fuck about my ignition timing control, because I don't turn the ignition whilst the car is moving. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,619 by Steve Lowe 11/30/05 3:20:44 PM Reply	Re: Of course I have antilock. And I don't give a fuck about my ignition timing control, because I don't turn the ignition whilst the car is moving. Your car's computer does, constantly, just like it controls shifting in the transmission in most modern vehicles with automatics. -- Steve [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu]
Post #236,623 by Andrew Grygus 11/30/05 3:26:01 PM Reply	and early autos did have ignition control . . . . . generally a separate lever in the center of the steering wheel. This was replaced by the centrifugal and vacuum advances built into the distributor. This is not a problem because it responds pretty much instantaneously to current engine conditions. The probalem with automatic transmissions is that they cannot anticipate the intended actions of the driver and they're slower to respond to current conditions and often wrong. Of course not everyone drives as aggressively as I do so many are happy with the automatic. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,627 by jbrabeck 11/30/05 3:32:11 PM Reply	Now I understand the helmet! A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #236,629 by drewk 11/30/05 3:38:31 PM Reply	Yup, that was my point Ignition timing used to be a manual process. And when they figured out a way to automate it, there were people who criticized the loss of control. And some of them were even right, for a while. Until they improved the performance of the automatic systems. So if your issue with an automatic is that it doesn't react quickly enough -- which you, Andrew, seem to be saying -- then you may be right. Or you may think you're a better, more agressive driver than you really are. (You did say you haven't felt the need for the "performance" switch yet, right?) But if your position is that stick is better because it demands more attention, then you should also be in favor of manually controlling the ignition timing. And the fuel richness. And the injector timing. And ... and ... and ... === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,633 by pwhysall 11/30/05 3:46:36 PM Reply	If you want to control anything... ...you want to control everything? Blimey. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,638 by drewk 11/30/05 3:50:43 PM Reply	You didn't say, "This is one thing I'd like to control." You said, "This is something that everyone, especially inattentive drivers, should be forced to control, as it will demand more attention from them." I'm just suggesting other things that would demand more attention. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,640 by pwhysall 11/30/05 3:56:41 PM Reply	Programmers. So damned literal all the time. I had a situation today where I had to explain (to a developer) that saying "Bad format at line XXXX" wasn't helpful, as the format could have been wrong in at least a half-dozen different ways, and line XXXX could be anywhere in a three-million-line-long text file, and the thing causing indigestion at line XXXX could have been at line YYYY, also anywhere in a three-million-line-long text file. And I didn't say that, anyway. I said that it demands more attention on the driving situation at hand, because it forces you to pay more attention to the speed and situation of your vehicle. Which is NOT what you just said that I said. So neener. I'm so going to tip you in that damn pool next time, permissions-boi. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,663 by drewk 11/30/05 5:22:58 PM Reply	But it doesn't I said that it demands more attention on the driving situation at hand, because it forces you to pay more attention to the speed and situation of your vehicle. No, it demands you pay attention to the speed and situation of your engine and transmission. This is related to the speed and situation of your vehicle. The Toyota minivan I rented last weekend ran so quietly I could not have shifted without staring at the tach. I never knew what gear it was in, and frankly didn't care. There was one point when I wanted to merge and knew I'd need to drop a gear. I just floored it a half-second before I knew I'd want to speed up. So by having a grasp of my speed and situation, I was able to react appropriately. Without a stick-shift. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,641 by Andrew Grygus 11/30/05 4:00:10 PM Reply	No, I'm not that much of a control freak. My point is that an automatic transmission cannot anticipate my needs, in fact it's a second or two behind. I can anticipate my needs and see that my engine speed and gearing will be what I need them to be when I need them. The Saturn's greater engine power combined with much better selections by the automatic transmission is a vast improvement over the Escort, but it's still sometimes messing around doing the wrong thing for a second or two and has to change its mind. Automatic ignition timing and injection control are better than I'd want to bother to be at their job, so I'm perfectly happy to let them have those functions. Now, for my real complaint. This Saturn is the first car I've had with an alarm system built in. Now that stupid thing is a TOTAL pain in the ass. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,701 by Steve Lowe 12/1/05 12:08:14 AM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #236700 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=236700\|ICLRPD] -- Steve [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu]
Post #236,582 by pwhysall 11/30/05 1:38:08 PM 11/30/05 1:39:51 PM Reply	Dupe I must have the shakes, or something. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall Nov. 30, 2005, 01:39:50 PM EST Edited by pwhysall Nov. 30, 2005, 01:39:51 PM EST Expand All History
Post #236,554 by jb4 11/30/05 12:43:30 PM Reply	I'm not sure I want a "highway that drives itself" ;-) jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,594 by Another Scott 11/30/05 2:02:28 PM Reply	Luddite. ________________________________________________;-)
Post #236,650 by tuberculosis 11/30/05 4:36:05 PM Reply	I do or rather, I want a little 'auto-creep' mode that locks onto vehicle ahead and maintains distance when travelling below 15 mph. How hard can that be? "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #236,667 by ben_tilly 11/30/05 5:35:48 PM Reply	That I don't want I like looking about 5 cars ahead then letting a gap open up when local traffic goes faster, and close down when traffic slows. It is amazing how much I can avoid touching gas or brakes by doing this. Giving me much better mileage and less wear. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #236,673 by drewk 11/30/05 5:52:40 PM Reply	But if everyone had that feature ... === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,675 by ben_tilly 11/30/05 6:19:43 PM Reply	Then we would all get car sick Or I would at least. Because people ahead speed up and slow down, and I couldn't take matching their motions exactly. Also if you watch, the "stops" in stop and go traffic seem to get started because someone tried to do a lane change too late. They stopped, then people stop behind them, and you get a wave going backwards. Having everyone match the car in front of you wouldn't help with that. But I would like it if the rule wasn't "constant distance" but rather "distance depending on speed". That would smooth things out. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #236,678 by drewk 11/30/05 6:24:01 PM Reply	I assumed distance by speed Most of the "smart highway" plans assume this, and show how great the traffic flow is. What they always fail to mention is a tragedy of the commons problem. Put one car in the mix that isn't using the same system as everyone else and the whole thing is hosed. IOW it's the kind of thing that will only work if it's mandated. Whether that is likely to happen or not is left to the reader. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,679 by ben_tilly 11/30/05 6:28:00 PM Reply	I think it is OK if some cars don't follow the rules... I remember seeing some simulations that said that if 30% of cars were using the technology, that you got some nice improvement. I remember thinking that if the highways became a bit better, a lot of people would switch back to them for their commute, and they would get worse again. I've never seen anyone try to quantify that though. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #236,670 by jb4 11/30/05 5:43:20 PM Reply	Actually, I'd just as soon the highway stays put.... jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,734 by Silverlock 12/1/05 9:11:31 AM Reply	But, The Roads Must Roll. ----------------------------------------- No new taxes. --George H. W. Bush We don't torture. --George W. Bush
Post #236,737 by admin 12/1/05 9:52:07 AM Reply	Ever on and on. Damn rollers. So prone to sabotage. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #236,549 by jb4 11/30/05 12:29:07 PM Reply	(somewhat) Rhetorical question: Well, it does depend if they want to have full control over the vehicle or not. So when was the last time you had "full control" of your C compiler, for example? (By "full control", I mean specifying all the myriad switches explicitly). Especially in a Micros~1 compiler? Cmon, you know you use the wizards, dialogs, etc.... jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,567 by ben_tilly 11/30/05 1:14:07 PM Reply	Peter, on this topic you are an idiot You constantly assert that manual control is good because it makes you pay attention. But it makes you pay attention to the wrong thing. I'd prefer to have a driver going through turns etc with both hands on the steering wheel and full attention on the road to one who has one hand on the wheel, one on the stick, and attention divided between the road outside and the mechanics of shifting. Yes, I know that with a little practice you barely think about the process of shifting. But even so, during the shifting process you have significantly less control of the car than when you're not shifting. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #236,574 by jb4 11/30/05 1:29:57 PM Reply	This does rather remind me of Todd's many diatribes... ...on why (he thinks) C++ suxors.... jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,576 by pwhysall 11/30/05 1:32:59 PM Reply	Complete piffle. In order to assess what gear you should be in at any given time, you have to plan ahead and pay close attention to your speed, the speed of the vehicles around you, the road conditions and any hazards in the vicinity. An automatic frees you from this restriction. I leave it to you whether this is a good, or a bad thing. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,589 by ben_tilly 11/30/05 1:52:23 PM Reply	So what you're saying is... that you prefer a manual because otherwise your concern for the optimal performance of your precious car won't force you to look around and pay attention to traffic? Well when I'm driving, I'm going to look around and pay attention to traffic no matter what car I'm driving, because I like remaining alive! I don't need concern about nursemaiding my car to encourage me to do the right thing! If this is an issue for you, then I likewise want you to drive a manual. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #236,596 by pwhysall 11/30/05 2:10:52 PM Reply	If you want to reframe what I said without reading it, yes. Looking at traffic is fine, but you need to be aware of your own speed and ability to accelerate or stop relative to it. This is much easier to do in a manual, because you know what gear you're in and what your car can do in that gear. Or, you should. Driving an auto, I'm constantly looking at the dash to see what the fook the thing's going to do when I press the loud pedal, because it's up'n'down the box without my interference. And if you think it's about "optimal performance" or "nursemaiding" then you're barking up the wrong strawmantree. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,666 by ben_tilly 11/30/05 5:32:49 PM Reply	I read it And I think that if you're driving in a way where you need to know your car's exact capabilities to succeed, then you're driving too aggressively. Back off. Give some space. Also I should note that with a modest amount of experience you can tell roughly how fast your car is going without relying on the speedometer or knowledge of what gear you are in. Not exactly, but close enough for normal driving conditions. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #236,590 by admin 11/30/05 1:53:32 PM Reply	And I've already pointed out that people are different. What may be an acceptable level of involvement for you may be completely overwhelming to someone else. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #236,577 by pwhysall 11/30/05 1:33:00 PM 11/30/05 1:39:13 PM Reply	Dupe Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall Nov. 30, 2005, 01:39:13 PM EST Expand All History
Post #236,624 by drewk 11/30/05 3:28:04 PM Reply	Looks like Peter keeps double-clutching his mouse === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,684 by static 11/30/05 8:23:56 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #236683 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=236683\|ICLRPD] "Insert crowbar. Apply force."
Post #236,625 by jbrabeck 11/30/05 3:30:16 PM Reply	Does FULL control over vehicle include Manually turning off the turn signals? Manually turning on/off the wipers? (I refering to each swipe, not on with rain off when no rain) I like manually shifting. But I now drive an automatic. It's nice to be able to concentrate on surrounding traffic without having to worry about shifting. And I definitely concur with the comments about traffic. Much rather have automatic. Only place manual beats auto is when stuck in snowbank. Sometimes is best to let the car decide while you concentrate on the surrounding drivers. Let the car control shifting, ingition timing, turning off blinkers, cleaning the windshield. I'll watch out for the idiot on the cell phone. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #236,648 by SpiceWare 11/30/05 4:31:55 PM Reply	Yep, downshifting Many people occasionally want to select what gear they're in to improve performance, ie: downshifting to go down a steep grade, downshifting because they're about to pull into the passing lane. Downshifting to go into the passing lane? By downshifting you can accelerate quicker, thus passing the slow car faster. Don't want to stay in the oncoming traffic's lane any longer than you have to :-) [link\|http://www.standardshift.com/faq.html\|Learn to Drive a Car with a Manual Transmission] Downshifting You'll want to downshift when heading down a steep slope to reduce riding the brakes or when greater acceleration is needed. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #236,649 by tuberculosis 11/30/05 4:34:38 PM Reply	My auto has a button just for that and hills I think. Its a pseudo-stick - shifter on floor, with a handy little thumb button that, when clicked, drops you down a gear (prevents overdrive gear - something like that). Worked great in the mountains in Denver. Haven't had call for it here in the flats. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #236,462 by Andrew Grygus 11/29/05 4:48:31 PM Reply	Sane? That clearly makes them totally inappropriate . . . . . for my driving needs. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,477 by boxley 11/29/05 6:41:46 PM Reply	we dont need no steenking clutches, get the revs right "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #236,478 by static 11/29/05 6:43:01 PM Reply	He's complaining about the wrong problem. The need for a gearbox is because of the relatively narrow band of useful torque out of an internal combustion engine. Electric motors, OTOH, have a much wider range of useful torque - hence less (or no) gears needed. Wade. "Insert crowbar. Apply force."
Post #236,485 by jb4 11/29/05 6:57:13 PM Reply	Traction motors for cars! Yessss! jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,481 by inthane-chan 11/29/05 6:49:59 PM Reply	What a freak. None of my cars have ever had a tachometer - I've always done it by engine sound. I want my stick back. When somebody asks you to trade your freedom for security, it isn't your security they're talking about.
Post #236,490 by Yendor 11/29/05 8:18:02 PM Reply	Tachometer? Isn't that the gauge that's used to show passengers in your car how much of a Manly-Man you are? -YendorMike "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Post #236,507 by imqwerky 11/29/05 11:44:05 PM Reply	We weren't aware that you were missing yours :-) "It's never too late to be who you might have been." ~ George Eliot
Post #236,514 by pwhysall 11/30/05 1:41:51 AM Reply	Why'd you buy an auto then, you ninny? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,539 by inthane-chan 11/30/05 10:46:46 AM Reply	When you have $1500 for a reliable car, you can't be picky.
Post #236,541 by pwhysall 11/30/05 10:48:00 AM Reply	Shurely a manual is cheaper? Less bits, see. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,545 by inthane-chan 11/30/05 12:01:27 PM Reply	Note the phrase "reliable". My car died about two months ago, just short of 3,000 miles after I bought it. The timing belt broke, and repair costs were ~$1-3k. It was a '82 Volvo station wagon that I paid $200 for, so I got my money out of it. It had originally been bought as a short haul car for an occasional weekend drive, but when I got my current job, it got pressed into daily driving against my better judgement. I knew I'd need a real car soon, so I started poking around, as well as asking my local mechanic (who I have worked with for a while and trust greatly - he's one of those old guys who've been running his shop for 30+ years that refuses to charge for car noises that just turn out to be overly paranoid drivers) to keep an eye out for any good cars going on the market. The week the car died, he mentioned a woman who had a '91 Geo Prizm that he had been maintaining since she bought it was going to be selling her car for $1500. I checked out the pricing on the web, checked out consumer reports and a few other sites, and decided that an almost bulletproof reliable car (about the only thing that dies in these cars is the alternator, and my mechanic was vouching for it being in excellent shape) outweighed my own personal preferences as far as stick versus automatic goes. This turns out to have been a very good choice, as she is the kind of person who keeps her service records in a three-ring binder. When somebody asks you to trade your freedom for security, it isn't your security they're talking about.
Post #236,689 by Nightowl 11/30/05 8:49:46 PM Reply	I can relate to that This turns out to have been a very good choice, as she is the kind of person who keeps her service records in a three-ring binder. I have all my service records for my car in a three-ring binder. Mine is of course, an automatic. I tried to drive a stick once, and all I succeeded in doing was going in circles around a parking lot. Just not for me. Brenda "I'll rock the darn boat all I want to, and if it's meant to stay afloat, then it will. If not, then we'll just all go down with the bloody ship!"
Post #236,547 by drewk 11/30/05 12:21:47 PM Reply	When new, yes Given two used cars, identical except for one being stick and one auto, I doubt you'd see much difference in the asking price. But more to the point, when you're looking at used you almost never have a choice between two otherwise identical cars. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,565 by Andrew Grygus 11/30/05 1:08:43 PM Reply	Ezzzakly. The instructions I gave Frank for the search for my new car stated a stick was highly preferred, but that I realized the other parameters would be hard enough to meet and I know wagons with sticks are very few and far between. Unfortunately, the car he found does have an automatic, but it shifts more in tune with my needs than the Escort did. It has a little rocker switch marked "performance" that sets the transmission to shift at a higher RPM point, but I haven't felt the need to use it yet. Frank told me "This car will look and drive like brand new", and he delivered. It's entirely flawless except for a missing hook for the cargo space curtain which will be replaced soon. The $5000 target (including all taxes, licenses and fees) was met. Not as good as the Escort for my work (less storage space), but for dealing with women this car is a gem. Yup, with used cars, you do, unfortunately, have to accept some compromises. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,597 by pwhysall 11/30/05 2:12:05 PM 11/30/05 2:14:52 PM Reply	Dude. I have the site for you. [link\|http://www.bangernomics.co.uk/\|http://www.bangernomics.co.uk/] [link\|http://bangernomics.tripod.com/\|http://bangernomics.tripod.com/] Yeah, it's UK-centric. Yeah, you live just about as far away from the UK as it's possible to get without moving to Australia or Hawaii. Details, details. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall Nov. 30, 2005, 02:14:52 PM EST Expand All History
Post #236,515 by Meerkat 11/30/05 6:54:31 AM Reply	Would you believe ... I drive an automatic!:) But yeah that article smacks of "Waa! I'm not coordinated!". I drive an automatic coz that's what I learned on. Laziness has kicked in for the intervening 15 years or whatever, so I haven't yet learnt to drive a Real Man's Car (tm). Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
Post #236,516 by dmcarls 11/30/05 9:03:50 AM Reply	Stick shift FWIW, here's my few cents: There is a large group of people who really don't want to be all that 'involved' in the driving of their vehicles. A manual transmissions demands that you be 'involved'. This very large group would rather be doing other things with their mental faculties and limbs. It sounds like this author is one of that majority.
Post #236,518 by pwhysall 11/30/05 9:10:27 AM Reply	You should be "involved"... ...because if you're not "involved" with your car whilst you're driving it, you're not paying attention. And if you're not paying attention, then you're going to crash. To be honest, if you don't want to be involved, take the bus or a taxi. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,523 by drewk 11/30/05 9:48:29 AM Reply	Where's your ignition timing control? Hey, if you're not going to be involved ... === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,525 by admin 11/30/05 9:58:18 AM Reply	There is "involved" and then there is "Involved" My wife and stick shifts are anathema to each other. She doesn't have the involvement to spare when she's driving a car, as it just isn't her forte. Anything that allows her to spend more time on the actual task at hand (steering, paying attention to the road, not running down pedestrians, etc.), and less doing unnecessarily manual things like shifting, is all to the good. That being said, I prefer a manual when I'm not a) in traffic or b) in bad weather. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #236,534 by Steve Lowe 11/30/05 10:37:27 AM Reply	Other circumstances, also. A few years ago, we had 2 cars that were both sticks, an old Chevy pickup and a Nissan Sentra. My wife had to have surgery on her left foot, and afterward could no longer drive a stick because it would cause pain in her foot. I sold the truck and bought a minivan so we'd have a car she could drive and I took over the Nissan. After driving a stick for 10 years in traffic, when we had to replace the Nissan, it was with an automatic. I'll take an automatic for commuting in traffic any day. -- Steve [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu]
Post #236,540 by pwhysall 11/30/05 10:46:58 AM Reply	That's exceptional, though, innit? I prefer a manual in traffic, too. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,553 by tuberculosis 11/30/05 12:43:17 PM Reply	Nope - stop and go driving is where the automatic shines I usually buy manuals, but the current jalopy has auto and I prefer it when all you are doing is letting off the brake periodically to let the car creep up another 30 yards. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #236,563 by ben_tilly 11/30/05 1:06:32 PM Reply	Bingo I have a slight preference for automatics - I'd prefer to focus on the road rather than the car. But I have a huge preference for automatics in rush hour traffic. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #236,578 by pwhysall 11/30/05 1:34:28 PM Reply	I just said I prefer a manual in traffic. I did stop-n-go for 250 miles up the A1 a few Fridays back in an auto, and it was hell. I did it the following Friday in a manual, and it was much better. Gimme a clutch rather than a loud pedal for low-speed control any day of the week. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,586 by ben_tilly 11/30/05 1:45:10 PM Reply	Crap automatic vs nice manual Which is then compared by a manual devotee. Not entirely a fair comparison. I'm also suspecting that if you did 250 miles of "stop and go" in one day, that it wasn't stop and go in the sense that I think of it. When I think stop and go I think of traffic which is varying between 5 and 20. When I do that in a manual I wind up stuck in second moving a speeds where I'd rather be in first, or else in first at speeds where I'd rather be in second but I'm not going to shift because I know that shortly I'll be better off in first. In a decent automatic I don't have an issue. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #236,588 by pwhysall 11/30/05 1:49:42 PM Reply	250 miles, up the A1, Friday afternoon. Horrible, I tell ye! Queues of 6 miles into a roundabout. There's a couple of dozen of these, then there's the fact that there's roadworks, and the entire sodding population of London heads North on Friday afternoons, and yes, it's 5-20MPH for the majority of it. It took me six and a half hours. Not a pleasant trip in ANY car. The manual was crap, too. Pug 407. Powerful-ish above 50MPH, but notchy as fook and gutless in the low/midrange. But it had a CLUTCH. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,557 by jb4 11/30/05 12:47:30 PM Reply	You obviously do NOT live anywhere near Chicago: where all they have is a) traffic and b) bad weather! Which are the top two reasons why I drive automatics exclusively. jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #236,533 by CRConrad 11/30/05 10:34:01 AM Reply	Sheesh, Peter! You should know better... ...than to start this discussion with a bunch of Yanks. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link\|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105\|Mr. Hat]
Post #236,536 by jbrabeck 11/30/05 10:40:01 AM 11/30/05 10:40:53 AM Reply	Why? Didn't Ford invent the car? [image\|/forums/images/warning.png\|0\|This is sarcasm...] tug tug... Yes, I do know better. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Edited by jbrabeck Nov. 30, 2005, 10:40:53 AM EST Expand All History
Post #236,711 by Ashton 12/1/05 2:30:12 AM Reply	Amen, My Son - but Attention on What, exactly.. OK Peter, minor rebuttal-tuning follows - Oh, and condolences upon the Sceptered Isle importing Murican multi-lane parking lots :( First, I think that the most ergonomic (common) interface twixt biped/machine is the serial manual transmission in a motorcycle. The synergy is demonstrable (though always harder to write about.) It even turns out that there's an argument - from human body layout of nerves, etc. - for having the left foot run the rear brake and the right hand handle the front brake: which does 70-90% of the important work, in the sum of all events. (Wish I could recall source of this study) Such was the layout on Brit. bikes - the Japanese arbitrarily and Foolishly disregarded this bit of ergodynamics they were iggerant of - when Soichiro began his invasion of the US wasteland of Harley Trucks, etc. He Moved the #$^#^ shift lever to the Wrong side! ..Still pisses moi off on the Kawasaki, which ain't no Vincent nohow. Stepping into a 4-wheel box produces an immediate loss of connection between one's very-own CG and that of the vehicle + you - and not only via the %factor of all that wasted mass for hauling around a mere 180ish # bag of bones. In this reduced-feedback contrivance, a whole new set of stimulus/response has to be learned -- and your responses will be duller, less-instantaneous than on any 2-wheeler. Manual VS auto (in a car) - in that milieu, such discussions oft degenerate, as does the focus upon exactly What it is you need to focus Attention upon, in that never-ending hierarchy of relative importance. (What we need here, is a few words from Juan Manuel Fangio - but he be daid.) First, re 2 wheels, an enviro with more variables and more sensitive, direct personal controls: Automatic trans in a 2-wheeler? I'd apply your general imprecations, in spades - to such a smarmy idea (even though there have been several such, usually in scooter-type vehicles.) On 2-wheels, all your comments re Control apply to a fare-thee-well: you Must know exactly how the deceleration of Your engine in That frame responds. In accelerating, you might (once an expert pilot) Want to break traction either quickly or progressively, given the power to possess this choice. (Most often not - but you'd best know when you Should.) Braking! there the dance begins - and much more evidently on 2- than on 4- wheels. You Must know the 'braking' characteristics VS speed, RPM (by ear and feel) of all gears; this because you are adding-to the natural retardation of the engine-as-compressor: by an appropriate application of two separate brakes - at all times and on varying surfaces. Too-many-words needed, even to attempt description of the exquisite balance of brain, hands, both feet, one's CG and that of [you + machine]. IMO and experience - only in a GP type special-purpose vehicle does the 4-wheel experience come even close to that of the feedback of a cycle. Second; 4 wheels: Yes, in playing boy racer - the manual xmission gives the flavour of above control of engine braking + brake-braking and the like. Cruder, but.. it's a Red Herring IMO to endow the action with clutch, gearshift, hand-off-wheel as: a boon!? ie - the distraction being justified because it somehow .. "keeps you awake?" Pshaw - that's not an argument for choosing a manual gearbox in '05; it's an argument for playing boy racer in the twisties, but saddled with the much less legible 'feedback' from the 4- wheeler, as otherwise might have ~made your case. Note the significant difference in 'manual' shifting inside this box,* VS the cycle experience: On the cycle a mere toe-flick raises/drops a gear; either a 1/4" movement of clutch lever (or none - if you match revs) handles the changing, clutching: there, All Done. And your throttle control is also instantaneous, even before fuel injection arrived there, too. In 4- wheel box the foot must move a mile (seemingly); the hand must come off the wheel, perhaps at apex of a chicane (!), move some clumsy lever from some memorized .. position .. to .. another [not 1-2-3-4-n; but up-some-amount; over-another-amount.] Some of those 'gates' look like a Maze. Lastly re Attention: I'd aver that, boy-racing in the twisties aside: a decent modern auto xmission, particularly one with a 'paddle' right in the steering wheel - allows you to place attention with better priorities than with your fav manual drill. What priorities? Attention! is needed on the 360\ufffd environment: the weather, road surface, and #1: the antics of Any drivers near enough to suddenly careen into Your Space. It is NOT to be squandered on the mechanics of moving one's hands OFF the pointing device, dancing one's feet into taking-up-slack of brake pedals or clutch pedals, while sorting out from brain engrams: W.T.F. the next UP/DOWN gear is spatially located? on some far-away transmission hump. As to improvements; ABS and others - My Model has variable-rate steering; less boost at higher speeds; also more (at whatever speed) for more-Sudden action = a [+] for maneuvers. The auto-trans is alas only a 4-speed, no paddle - and while manual override permits a sort-of up/down shift control override: I agree it lacks the precision of a Manual. But this matters little in 99% of situations I encounter on US roads - and the auto is a mondo-Boon in any stop n'go beyond a few minutes. Also, ~28 mpg at 70+ cruise is about same as the 5-speed manual version of my sled, per reports. ABS, as mentioned is of little use as the coefficient of friction approaches that of ice (OK though, in certain grades of snow). I see it as an obv aid to the dull driver and especially for him who Slams On Brakes, in utter panic, in any Interesting situation. That was the target audience, no? For the rest of us, it can be a [+] in intermediate slippery conditions, but will be dumb as Doze on gravel or wet leaves; it is mainly a 'smarter' arbiter of braking force, with the advantage of crudely-independent override on each of the 4-wheels - in a limited range of conditions. Sometimes.. this Can do better than a 'good' driver could have done, without ABS. (And especially for: the very many who drive while semi-full of beer.) For us anointed, it's probably rarely ever engaged (except when both anointed and polluted - see above ;-) I know I had to intentionally test mine, first night of rain, before the road oil was washed away -- as I'd never needed to invoke it. (Also, I figured that the seals in that complex system need periodic exercise - like All seals do). It worked. Yawn. The Saab(s) was stick; I can drive stick. I Like my not-even paddle equipped auto xmission; it's a Gran Turismo, not a Lotus! fer Cthulu sake. (And I affirm that this particular 5-cyl. engine is allegedly near the smoothest of IC engines ever designed .. an engineering quip I have not been able to quantify, yet.) At 7000 rpm, near-limiter: nary a vibe; Really! (Bikes of course can more than double that - still it is Torque that is King, not 'H.P.', as we know.) In your overall contention though, 100% agreement: "INVOLVED" is what every cockamamie asshole within a 2-tonne baby carriage SHOULD Be - from driver-door closed --> switch off; door opened. Videos, 500 Watt audio, cel-fones should be outlawed - in the driver's even peripheral visionscape. (But then, people who live in 'democracies' should fucking be informed actual voters, yada. Neither happy event is likely during this yuga, I wot.) Cheers, Bikers \ufffdber Alles in Die Welt, LLC, FRS, TFFO
Post #236,718 by Andrew Grygus 12/1/05 4:27:47 AM 12/1/05 10:53:16 AM Reply	Well, (corrected Nuvolari) had transmission problems too Specifically with the preselector gearbox in the 1930's MG Magnet (a baby carriage with a supercharger bolted on front). During practices he was constantly spinning out, but fortunately he managed to get the hang of it by race time. The preselector box was an epicyclic gearbox, pretty much the same as an automatic but with a manual clutch. You selected the gear you wanted to be in next, and when you were ready for it you just tapped the clutch and it shifted automatically. (2am brain fart corrected - it was not Fangio who had problems with the MG (too early) it was Nuvolari, his predicessor in fame) [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx] Edited by Andrew Grygus Dec. 1, 2005, 09:10:53 AM EST Edited by Andrew Grygus Dec. 1, 2005, 10:53:16 AM EST Expand All History
Post #236,791 by Ashton 12/1/05 6:51:31 PM Reply	Yea, Tazio! an Italian tenor with fast wheels. One example of his virtuosity - IIRC on the Nurburgring (year unknown), a car lost its oil (rod through case?) Cars were sliding off in all directions, more or less - natch.. Observers said that as Nuvolari approached, his (hands + steering wheel) were a blur; he threaded self through spinning cars and all the oil - and pressed on. I don't think I can imagine a 50 mSec (?) reaction time.. from My jelloware. All I know fershure is: that was Art. What a thing to have seen! Fangio, though Argentinian seemed more restrained off-track, perhaps better suiting the temperament of the umm, methodical Mercedes folk (?)
Post #236,795 by drewk 12/1/05 7:31:27 PM Reply	Speaking of virtuosity Remember Eddie Lawson, Mick Doohan and Wayne Gardner? Yep, they're the guys who were on top when I was paying attention to racing. They did stuff like [link\|http://ftp.newave.net.au/~spcardwd/doohan/mdoohan02.gif\|this], [link\|http://www.ama-admin.com/upl/FDyqxsOVJE_1068487148.jpg\|this] and [link\|http://epll.no-ip.com/fotos/campeons/xLawson.jpg\|this]. They'd come out of a turn wide open on one wheel sliding sideways. Absolutely amazing. But the most incredible I ever saw convinced me someone was in league with the devil. Gardner high-sided coming out of a turn. Most people, when this happens, start curling up and preparing for a hard landing. Not him. He [link\|http://epll.no-ip.com/fotos/campeons/xgardner.jpg\|held on]. And rode away from it. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #236,815 by Another Scott 12/1/05 10:32:03 PM Reply	Zowie!
Post #236,820 by cforde 12/1/05 11:20:38 PM Reply	dancing with motorcycles Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #236,826 by Ashton 12/2/05 4:24:43 AM Reply	Re: Speaking of virtuosity Yeah.. that's ... .... Nahhh - simply, you Can't DO That; I'm not looking at that picture. You and your photoshopfu are Messing with my Head. Must be the same stuff in the water as in the veins of some of the skateboard folk who have a picture in the attic - and have abolished G\ufffdM₁M₂/R² (while the portrait has bones sticking out of many odd places.) These guys got their first moto at age ~3; never learned fear - and apparently: that alone is the means by which they evolve beyond us mere mortals, with road rash Reminders to contend with. May they live long.. and Dazzle [*]
Post #236,801 by Andrew Grygus 12/1/05 8:10:34 PM Reply	Or, in the words of Ferdinand Porsche . . . "The greatest race driver of this day, or the past, or the future." Nuremberg 1935, driving an old non-competitive Alpha Romeo he beat the combined forces of Mercedes Benz and Auto Union - with Hitler watching in astonishment. Hitler refused to shake his hand and the band, certain of a German victory, hadn't brought music for the Italian national anthem. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,827 by Ashton 12/2/05 4:34:08 AM Reply	Would that some film exists (?) I'm not a very good student of the race-by-race history of those years - just snatches. But in my time machine chron list is a spot to see That one. As the techno gets more sophisticated, even surreal -- we've Lost something important IMO. It isn't just about some stupid clock with numbers for the records spreadsheet. (Doesn't anyone Get That?)
Post #236,834 by Another Scott 12/2/05 8:08:08 AM Reply	Who here reads Hungarian? 21 kB .img [link\|http://f1hirek.hu/?t=article&id=4702\|Tazio]. [image\|http://f1hirek.hu/kepek/huge/Tazio_nuvolari.jpg\|0\|Tazio Nuvolari\|266\|400] 1933-ban N\ufffdmetorsz\ufffdgban Hitler \ufffdtvette a hatalmat. Az \ufffdj n\ufffdmet kancell\ufffdr im\ufffddta a gyors aut\ufffdkat, \ufffdgy az aut\ufffdversenyez\ufffdst is a nemzeti szocializmus propagand\ufffdj\ufffdnak emelv\ufffdnyek\ufffdnt haszn\ufffdlta. AZ Ez\ufffdstnyilak a n\ufffdmet korm\ufffdny t\ufffdmogat\ufffds\ufffdt \ufffdlvezt\ufffdk, azonban a nemzetk\ufffdzi versenyeken m\ufffdgis az olaszok\ufffd volt a főszerep. Az Alfa Romeo sz\ufffdm\ufffdra sok sikert hozott az \ufffdj esztendő, amely Tuniz-ban vette kezdet\ufffdt, ahol Nuvolari \ufffds Borzacchini j\ufffdtszott\ufffdk a főszerepet. A m\ufffdrcius 26-\ufffdn szerzett győzelm\ufffdt k\ufffdvetően Nuvolari a Mille Migli\ufffdn is nagyszerű teljes\ufffdtm\ufffdnyt ny\ufffdjtott, \ufffdgy az \ufffdprilis 9-\ufffdn v\ufffdget \ufffdrő k\ufffdt napos megm\ufffdrettet\ufffdst k\ufffdvetően ő vihette el p\ufffdlm\ufffdt. A Tripoli Nagyd\ufffdjon csak egy hajsz\ufffdlon m\ufffdlott, hogy a Bugatti versenyzője diadalmaskodott az alacsony olasz pil\ufffdta felett. \ufffdprilis 30-\ufffdn Alexandri\ufffdban Nuvolari egy \ufffdjabb győzelemmel lett gazdagabb, amelyet m\ufffdg h\ufffdrom m\ufffdsik k\ufffdvetett az Alfa Romeo-val. A j\ufffdlius 9-\ufffdn rendezett Belga Nagyd\ufffdjon m\ufffdr a Bugatti sz\ufffdneiben \ufffdllt rajthoz, amelyet meg is nyert. [...] Az 1935-\ufffds esztendőben Nuvolari m\ufffdg a halhatatlanok list\ufffdj\ufffdra is feliratkozott. A N\ufffdmet Nagyd\ufffdjra, amelyre j\ufffdlius 28-\ufffdn ker\ufffdlt sor, Nuvolari m\ufffdr n\ufffdgy győzelemmel a tarsoly\ufffdban \ufffdrkezett meg. Az Alfa Romeo teljes\ufffdtm\ufffdnye k\ufffdzel sz\ufffdz l\ufffderővel gyeng\ufffdbb volt, mint a n\ufffdmet aut\ufffdk\ufffd, azonban az olasz szt\ufffdrpil\ufffdt\ufffdnak a nem t\ufffdl kedvező k\ufffdr\ufffdlm\ufffdnyek ellen\ufffdre is siker\ufffdlt futamot nyernie. A versenyt 300.000 n\ufffdző k\ufffds\ufffdrte figyelemmel, \ufffds Hitler Birodalmi M\ufffdrk\ufffdk sz\ufffdzezreivel t\ufffdmogatta a Mercedes \ufffds az Auto Union csapatait, ez\ufffdrt a n\ufffdmetek b\ufffdztak abban, hogy saj\ufffdt aut\ufffdik viszik el a p\ufffdlm\ufffdt ezen a megm\ufffdrettet\ufffdsen. Az első k\ufffdr ut\ufffdn Nuvolari Caracciola m\ufffdg\ufffdtt volt, a kilencedik k\ufffdrre azonban Bernd Rosemeyer, Fagioli \ufffds Chiron m\ufffdg\ufffd esett vissza egy ker\ufffdkcser\ufffdt k\ufffdvetően. Ebből a kil\ufffdt\ufffdstalan helyzetből az olasz versenyzőnek siker\ufffdlt felz\ufffdrk\ufffdznia a m\ufffdsodik helyre, majd az utols\ufffd k\ufffdrben a tizen\ufffdt m\ufffdsodperces h\ufffdtr\ufffdny\ufffdt is ledolgozta, amivel n\ufffdmet k\ufffdz\ufffdns\ufffdg előtt diadalmaskodott. Egyes elmond\ufffdsok szerint mindenk\ufffdppen n\ufffdmet győzelemre sz\ufffdm\ufffdtottak, ez\ufffdrt nem volt bek\ufffdsz\ufffdtve az olasz himnusz lemeze, azonban Nuvolari mindig mag\ufffdn\ufffdl hordott egyet, s \ufffdgy volt ez ezen a vas\ufffdrnapon is, ez\ufffdrt Hitler csal\ufffddotts\ufffdg\ufffdra az \ufffdnnepl\ufffds sem maradt el. A little more intelligible text to my eyes is at the [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazio_Nuvolari\|Wikipedia]. A report on the 1935 German Grand Prix is [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1935_German_Grand_Prix\|here]. I haven't found a link to film yet. This was Nuvolari's greatest race because with a car lacking 100 horses to his strongest foes, he had beaten eight German cars, Lang being the only German retirement. Von Brauchitsch however would probably had been the winner hadn't the Mercedes team neglected to order him into the pits sometimes around on lap 18. When it was done, they all had a big tea party and Nuvolari stood up on a table and sang show tunes for everybody. A great time was had by all. I'll bet! :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #236,835 by Andrew Grygus 12/2/05 8:21:19 AM Reply	Comprehensive site in English . . . But no film: [link\|http://www.tazionuvolari.it/indexuk.htm\|Nuvolari]. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,837 by pwhysall 12/2/05 8:32:12 AM Reply	While we're reminiscing... (new thread) Created as new thread #236836 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=236836\|While we're reminiscing...] Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #236,542 by dmcarls 11/30/05 10:59:10 AM Reply	On being involved... I guess what I was thinking when I wrote the original post wasn't necessarily about driving, although my post implied that. Involvement, as marketing professionals know all too well, is a very tricky thing. People have so many things in their lives tugging at them from so many directions, that most of them welcome a little relief, in the form of a mechanical device (automatic shift) to remove some of that day-to-day complexity. A car is complicated, people just want it 'to work'. Hence the intense scrutiny on Consumer Report's 'Service History' of cars. Politics is complicated, so we get a low-level of involvement. For some people, the stock market is difficult, so now we have people called 'fund managers', and laws such as 401(k). Some people (present company excluded) find personal computer difficult and while they want to hand over some tasks to the machine, they experience trepidation in doing so, because they just don't understand how it's actually doing it's function. I feel that the shift (pun intended) to automatic transmissions is just a part of this thread of complexity running through the average person's daily life. Remember IBM's theme of years ago? "Machines should work, people should think." I guess I've used up my 2 cents, please forgive the rambling.
Post #236,569 by Andrew Grygus 11/30/05 1:18:02 PM Reply	Yeah, and we know damned well what that 'other things' is. It's called a "cell phone". I'm begining to think it's impossible for a woman to drive a vehicle without one of those things held to her ear - though I see plenty of "girly-men" doing the same. It's particularly bad during the "soccer mom hour" on weekdays and occasionally results in SUVs attempting to mate. If these folks didn't have to steer they'd be holding a Starbucks cup in the other hand. They have to alternate now, so they'd love to have a road that drives the car for them. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,591 by admin 11/30/05 1:57:52 PM Reply	Er, no. My wife doesn't use a cell phone while she's driving. Period. I can attest to that, given the number of calls I've gotten from my son while he's in the back seat. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #236,592 by Andrew Grygus 11/30/05 1:59:27 PM Reply	There's always those pesky exceptions aren't there? [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #236,593 by admin 11/30/05 2:01:20 PM Reply	Whoops. Thought you were replying to my post, not the parent. Yes, she is an exception from that standpoint. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #236,646 by SpiceWare 11/30/05 4:25:19 PM Reply	manual transmission becomes second nature All but one of my vehicles have had manual transmission. I don't have to "actively think about it" when shifting is required, it just happens. Rather like walking - takes a lot of coordination to balance on 1 foot with the other swinging forward while your center of gravity changing the whole time. By this guy's arguement, we should all be on Segways. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #236,647 by tuberculosis 11/30/05 4:27:35 PM Reply	It does but I get more tired with 2 feet on 3 pedals vs 1-1 in jammed traffic. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #236,652 by SpiceWare 11/30/05 4:38:51 PM Reply	True during the Rita exodus my feet became tired. Guess I've been lucky - traffic jams are not part of my normal everyday experience. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #236,680 by n3jja 11/30/05 7:00:28 PM Reply	Hey! HTF am I supposed to..... ... use my cellphone, drink my Starbuck's, read the Wall Street Journal, and shift all at the same time? Are you fracking nuts? [image\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/images/warning.png\|\|\|\|] Silly English Pig-Dog......
Post #236,682 by ben_tilly 11/30/05 8:12:53 PM Reply	Just leave the brake on. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #236,730 by boxley 12/1/05 8:45:30 AM Reply	too early, missed the f in shift "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #236,744 by Andrew Grygus 12/1/05 10:54:14 AM Reply	A missed shift grinds gears in Box [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]

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