You cant dispute that an unusually high number of

Post #221,450 by bionerd 8/29/05 2:28:07 PM Reply	You cant dispute that an unusually high number of commercial aircraft have gone down in the past few months. I didnt say I'm afraid to fly. But I am aware that aircraft fleets are getting older and more airlines are filing for bankruptcy. Every aspect of the airline industry is taking a financial hit. Flight crew are overworked and stress. Mechanics and engineers are disgruntled. If you dont think it's affecting aircraft maintenace and safety you're delusional. Do I think flying is safer than driving? Of course. Statistically, I know I have a greater chance of getting in a car accident than a plane crash. But I also know I have a greater chance of surviving a car crash than a plane crash, and I have more control over the outcome in a car crash. And frankly, I like having that control. And for someone who's spent the last 4 years responding to mass casualty aviation disasters, I think I have earned the right to not enjoy flying. Cut me some slack, Jack.
Post #221,454 by pwhysall 8/29/05 2:51:59 PM Reply	Yes, I can. [link\|http://www.planecrashinfo.com/more%20accidents%20lately.htm\|http://www.planecras...ents%20lately.htm] Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #221,458 by tuberculosis 8/29/05 3:01:42 PM 8/21/07 5:44:47 AM Reply	Up 300% over last year "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:44:47 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #221,459 by mmoffitt 8/29/05 3:02:53 PM Reply	Need to see number of flights. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #221,462 by pwhysall 8/29/05 3:14:00 PM Reply	Dunno without checking, but in the millions Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #221,465 by mmoffitt 8/29/05 3:26:43 PM Reply	Anecdotal is travel is up. But I don't have firm stats, just what I've seen around airports - pilots called back, new pilot hires, etc. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #221,472 by tuberculosis 8/29/05 3:45:44 PM 8/21/07 5:45:18 AM Reply	My answer made as much sense as that chart Which was my point. Which was missed. By a lot. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:45:18 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #221,596 by bionerd 8/30/05 11:08:43 AM Reply	I got it.
Post #221,461 by pwhysall 8/29/05 3:13:40 PM Reply	And the year before that? The trend is down, Todd. And, "300%"? I think you meant to type "up 2", in order to avoid using a deliberately hyperbolic percentage figure. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #221,590 by bionerd 8/30/05 10:56:43 AM Reply	That chart only mentions fatalities, not casualties. I guess spending a year in a burn unit doesnt count.
Post #221,592 by Another Scott 8/30/05 11:01:09 AM Reply	Noticed how "casualty" has morphed to mean "fatality"? (Just an aside.) Have you noticed how [link\|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=casualty\|casualty] has morphed recently to mean the same as [link\|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fatality\|fatality]? It's especially common in reporting on Iraq for the TV talking heads to use casualty when they mean fatality. It bugs me. I'm glad you appreciate the distinction too. Carry on. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #221,457 by mmoffitt 8/29/05 2:58:09 PM Reply	Yes, I can. And you don't get any slack ... when you post nonsense like that. "Unusually high number"? How did you arrive at that? How many total accidents this year? Last year at this time? Two years ago? Ten? The plain simple fact of the matter is that commercial air travel has gotten significantly more safe over the years. Not less safe as your post suggests. But I am aware that aircraft fleets are getting older ... And this impacts safety how exactly? Got any proof that the all glass panel fly-by-wire aircraft from Airbus are any better? (Aside: Great. Now Todd's gonna start ranting.) I think I have earned the right to not enjoy flying. I never suggested anyone was required to "earn a right to not enjoy flying." I've got family members who are terrified to fly. As far as "not enjoying flying" goes, we might have some common ground here. I, too, dislike flying commercial. It used to be a quite pleasant experience back when the airline industry was regulated, before the attitude that "the market knows all" infected the business of aviation. (Aside: Any righties out there wanna still contend that de-regulation is good for competition? How many airline companies are left?). Today commercial air travel is a horror show of idiocy. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #221,460 by tuberculosis 8/29/05 3:03:33 PM 8/21/07 5:44:50 AM Reply	Plane age does figure into it Metal fatigue, corrosion, higher proportion of components on the far side of the MTBF. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:44:50 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #221,463 by mmoffitt 8/29/05 3:15:36 PM Reply	In theory, I agree. But I don't think, looking at ntsb.gov, that the age of the aircraft has much to do with airline accidents. If it did, I'd expect to see a lot more accidents with older aircraft, given they make up a larger share of what's flying every day than do newer aircraft. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #221,470 by tuberculosis 8/29/05 3:43:52 PM 8/21/07 5:45:15 AM Reply	There was that air Hawaii flight where the roof peeled off Salt water environment/corrosion/metal fatigue was blamed I think. I believe it resulted in heavier weight being given to "cycles" in maintenance schedules. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:45:15 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #221,477 by mmoffitt 8/29/05 4:16:20 PM Reply	Yeah, and then there was this. [link\|http://www.planecrashinfo.com/w011112.htm\|http://www.planecras...o.com/w011112.htm] I understand that age is a factor, I'm just saying that I think age of aircraft is overplayed. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #221,474 by Another Scott 8/29/05 3:51:43 PM Reply	Um... Mike writes: Any righties out there wanna still contend that de-regulation is good for competition? How many airline companies are left? I'll play along. ;-) [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation\|Wikipedia]: Since 1938, the federal Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB) had regulated all domestic air transport as a public utility, setting fares, routes, and schedules. The CAB promoted air travel, for instance by generally attempting to hold fares down in the short-haul market, to be subsidized by higher fares in the long-haul market. The CAB was also obliged to ensure that the airlines had a reasonable rate of return. It also earned a reputation for bureaucratic complacency; airlines were subject to lengthy delays when applying for new routes or fare changes, which were not often approved. World Airways applied to begin a low-fare New York City to Los Angeles route in 1967; the CAB studied the request for over six years only to dismiss it because the record was "stale." Continental Airlines began service between Denver and San Diego after eight years only because a U.S. Court of Appeals ordered the CAB to approve the application. This rigid system encountered tremendous pressure in the 1970s. The 1973 energy crisis and stagflation radically changed the economic environment, as did technological advances such as the jumbo jet. Most of the major airlines, whose profits were virtually guaranteed, favored the system. But passengers forced to pay escalating fares did not, nor communities which subsidized air service at ever-dearer rates. Congress became concerned that air transport in the long run might follow the nation's railroads into trouble; in 1970 the Penn Central railroad had collapsed in what was then the largest bankruptcy in history, resulting in a massive taxpayer bailout in 1976. In 1975 the United States Senate Judiciary Committee began hearings on airline deregulation; it was deemed a friendlier forum than the more appropriate place, the Aviation Subcommittee of the Commerce Committee. Airlines' dire predictions of a post-deregulation world were mitigated by the experience of thriving unregulated intrastate carriers such as PSA and Southwest Airlines and by the successful deregulation of air cargo in 1977. In 1977, President Jimmy Carter appointed Alfred E. Kahn, a professor of economics at Cornell University, to be chair of the CAB. He would be the last, and earn the moniker "father of airline deregulation." Kahn argued that rather than sustain air travel, the CAB in fact acted to inhibit growth and encourage inefficient practices. He argued that removing regulation would help foster a new, efficient equilibrium of price, quantity, and quality of air service; that long-haul fares would decline, barriers to entry for new airlines would drop, and airlines could effectively deploy different aircraft for different roles (e.g. turboprops over jetliners in smaller markets). Deregulation is a net good for consumers, but not for entrenched companies. It's also not an unqualified good in all respects. The major airlines would be making money now if jet fuel hadn't increased in price tremendously over the last couple of years. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #221,480 by Ashton 8/29/05 4:28:47 PM Reply	IF... the condition of Omnipresence. Slowww Learners R'us
Post #221,481 by mmoffitt 8/29/05 4:29:40 PM 8/29/05 4:31:25 PM Reply	Heh. He argued that removing regulation would help foster a new, efficient equilibrium of price, quantity, and quality of air service; Really? We no longer have delays, we have "even pricing" (here's an example): FWA TO LAX American Airlines: $577 Northwest Airlines $577 Delta Air Lines: $587 Continental Airlines: $663 IND TO LAX Northwest Airlines: $158 ATA: $168 American West Airlines: $217 American Airlines: $229 AirTran Airways: $259 Independence Air: $331 United Airlines: $368 [Edit: Error, we have 3 Class C's in Indiana, forgot South Bend] Yep, 2 of the Class C Airports in Indiana serving the largest and second largest cities in the state. Dead even: $158 (Indy) to $577 (Fort Wayne). And quantity and quality of service? You're joking, right? The quality is self-explanatory as anyone who ever flew coach in 1969 and then had to fly coach in 2005 can attest. The quantity? Hmmmm.... Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Western, etc. As I said, de-regulation really made things better wrt competition. Feh. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell Edited by mmoffitt Aug. 29, 2005, 04:31:25 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #221,587 by bionerd 8/30/05 10:53:33 AM Reply	good lord If you think I have time to research this you're wrong. I offered an opinion. My opinion, based on my experiences and my knowledge of the industry. I do not claim to be an expert on the issue. I specialize in the human side of disasters, not the technical. I am not prepared to provide a dissertation, nor do I care to. I'll leave it to you to pull up websites if you're so inclined. (Because we all know every chart, every figure, every report, and everything published on the internet is well-researched and unequivocally true). Carry on.
Post #221,625 by Nightowl 8/30/05 1:02:36 PM Reply	Re: good lord I relate to that Laura. I don't propose to know every thing about every crash or every flight that didn't crash. But the reason I know there were 5 flights in August that crashed in some fashion or another, was a) it was all over the news, and they were even stating there were 5 crashes in the space of one month, and b) I collect newspapers articles on most major plane crashes, and I haven't cut any in a long time, then suddenly there are 5 sets of clippings I have cut in the last batch of August papers. It may be nonsense to some, to be afraid of flying, or even to be nervous about the fact that a loved one is flying, but the bottom line is the fears are very real to the person that has them, and that certainly isn't nonsense. Brenda "Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
Post #221,645 by pwhysall 8/30/05 2:10:10 PM Reply	s/propose/purport/ Anyway. The point still stands. The assertion was made that there are a lot of plane crashes lately. The assertion was shown to be unfounded in fact. Further, it was shown that air travel is very safe compared to your favoured mode of transport, the roving mobile people smasher AKA the car. I'm not really interested in the happy-clappy-everyone's-a-snowflake-so-respect-my-neuroses bollocks, either Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #221,658 by Ashton 8/30/05 3:05:06 PM Reply	Neuroses? Human thought is guaranteed aberrant; 'tis only fluid Custom du jour and prejudice which assigns 'sane' and ""normal"" to particular thoughts, as ever imperfectly expressed. Human emotion -- hah, write something Accurate about That! (to "3 significant figures", say?) Life Itself is a neurotic distubance of the [1]nice statistical orderliness / randomness of Brownian movements (never mind the Peculiarity that, somehow -- there's more matter than antimatter. It seems.. so far...) Else - If the Universe didn't exist (And if matter == antimatter; it Wouldn't) It wouldn't be missed. partial-\ufffdPiet Hein HTH ie Pshaw. [1] 'Nice' for the arithmetic- Chartered-accountant- obsessed, as in ..a foolish consistency ... hobgoblin .. small minds
Post #221,660 by pwhysall 8/30/05 3:13:41 PM Reply	Note that it's a foolish consistency. Basic logical operation (i.e. to recognise that something is safer than something else) is hardly a "foolish" consistency. Besides, Emerson was a bit of a prima donna. I don't think he was thinking of the likes of me and thee when he wrote that (achingly pretentious) quote. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #221,664 by Ashton 8/30/05 3:24:28 PM Reply	Well.. methinks that the Great Ones were! (thinking of me and thee) Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments Love is not love which alters where it alteration finds or bends with the remover to remove. ... The lesser-ones had their moments (as do we even-lesser) but mostly it seems - we are all on autopilot about 98.67% of the time. When's the last time you, I had a truly Original thought ?+?
Post #222,899 by bionerd 9/5/05 11:45:17 AM Reply	Another crash (new thread) Created as new thread #222898 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=222898\|Another crash]

Welcome to IWETHEY!