Are you disputing where THC binds in the brain?

Post #97,982 by mmoffitt 4/22/03 4:57:13 PM Reply	Are you disputing where THC binds in the brain? When you smoke pot it goes into virtually ALL your lymph tissue. Because it's so big, it's takes for damned ever to metabolize. That's why they can still find it 90 days after you smoke ;-) bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #97,983 by deSitter 4/22/03 4:58:32 PM 4/22/03 5:00:01 PM Reply	Re: Are you disputing where THC binds in the brain? I'm disputing that demonizing weed is going to make the hiways safer. I'm for demonizing makeup and telephones. (ObGallagher: Why DO they call them "highways"?) -drl Light is heavy: R{} = (2R/W)T - (1/2W){D-2,D-2}W Heavy is light: (D-3)(RF[] + 5/4 g) = 0 Edited by deSitter April 22, 2003, 05:00:01 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #97,986 by mmoffitt 4/22/03 5:00:43 PM Reply	Better idea. Let's ban the fscking automobile! bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #98,050 by Silverlock 4/22/03 9:00:10 PM Reply	Makes more sense than banning a plant. The world is only a simple place to the simple.
Post #98,325 by jb4 4/23/03 3:54:54 PM Reply	What I will dispute is the generalities: THC activates the reward system in the same way that nearly all drugs of abuse do, by stimulating brain cells to release the chemical dopamine.32,33,34 Interesting, since I know for a fact that cocaine, and to a lesser degree Extacy and its ilk, produce its euphoric effect by stimulating the release of seratonin, not dopamine. That factoid seems to shoot a rather large hole in the throwaway: "[...] in the same way that nearly all drugs of abuse do [...]" Studies show that approximately 6 to 11 percent of fatal accident victims test positive for THC. If "studies" show something, why the 87% variance? Can they count or not? Or is this a WAG? jb4 "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." Rich Cook
Post #98,520 by mmoffitt 4/24/03 11:42:44 AM Reply	Methinks your reading with bias. nearly all drugs does not equate to all drugs. As far as the variance goes, I'm not sure because I haven't looked at the studies cited, but I'd guess that a partial explanation would be because of the time the studies were performed. Some could have been simple surveys. THC tests have not been around as long as alcohol tests. As recently as 1972, a "test for pot" was not available to be performed in California in a fatal auto accident that killed 3 of my dearest friends when three pot smokers lost control of their car and hit the car my friends were in head-on at 75 mph. I'll never forget what the cop at the scene told my father, "I could smell pot on them. But there was nothing I could do about it. They tested negative for booze and we don't have marijuana tests available." I've actually had people who smoked pot in college (I'm even married to one) tell me that they were "sure that pot wasn't the problem. Maybe something else, cocaine for example, but not pot. Pot doesn't make you do that." You want to legalize something that could yield such a ridiculous statement decades after the effect of it has worn off? And you think I'm out on a limb? bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #98,595 by jb4 4/24/03 4:34:05 PM Reply	Decriminalize != legalize But you already knew that.... Back to it: "Nearly all drugs" indeed != all drugs. However, "Nearly all drugs" is quite a bit more than the majority. Yet cocaine, extacy, and their seratonin stimulator ilk are themselves a sizeable minority of all "drugs of abuse". That this sizeable minority exists negates the "nearly all drugs" saw. Given that, one can easily surmise that the "study" you so eagerly quote is short on hard, quantitive facts and long on generalization and spin. [...] a fatal auto accident that killed 3 of my dearest friends when three pot smokers lost control of their car and hit the car my friends were in head-on at 75 mph. So now it becomes clear where your prejudice comes from re: cannabis. I'm sorry for your loss. I wonder how you would feel if the cop had said, "I could smell the booze on them...". To me, the statements are interchangeable. An intoxicant lead to imparement, the imparement lead to a fatal auto accident. Whether the intoxicant was cannabis, ethanol, mushroom alkaloids, or light sweet crude makes no difference to me...the intoxicated driver fucked up, period. I have absolutely no problems with getting intoxicated fuckheads of the roads. What I do have a problem with is the knee-jerk, brains-with-clutch-fully-disengaged reaction that all potheads are bad, we gotta lock 'em all up, yadda, yadda, yadda mantra that is typical of fascists the world over. Think, man! Is everybody who ever smoked the demon weed an evil miscreant, or are you still smarting over the senseless loss of your friends and turning your frustration and rage outward to an oh-so-convenient target? jb4 "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." Rich Cook
Post #98,760 by mmoffitt 4/25/03 2:25:39 PM Reply	Perhaps. Years ago I made the mistake of saying something to my wife that I felt but had never uttered. It came on the heels of one of more than a handful of long, tiresome, trying arguments on this very topic. One of the people lost in the accident I mentioned was like a father to me. His name was Bob. He was the one who took me on camping trips, trips to the laguna, sailing, fishing, golfing, etc. when my own father didn't seem to have time. The week before he was killed he came by with a birthday present for me. The accident occured 13 days after my 13th birthday. Back to the battle with my wife, I had become out of my head angry with my wife and then tired. Very tired and I said, "You know what the bottom line is for me? The bottom line is that when I imagine seeing Bob and he asks me the question, 'How could you marry some one just like the people who killed me?' I don't have an answer for him." Up until last night, we never again discussed this issue. Now, I'm really worried. My girls are getting to the age when pot use is commonplace. This has all the trappings of a dividing moment in my home. A huge part of me cannot alter my view of pot out of a sense (true or imagined) that by doing so I will profrain the memory of my friends (and mother who was the sole survivor in her car). All the reasoning in the world will not help me answer that question from Bob. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #98,775 by rcareaga 4/25/03 3:18:04 PM 4/25/03 3:40:28 PM Reply	(sigh) but mmoffit... When you imagine seeing Bob and he asks me the question, "How could you marry some one just like the people who killed me?" and when you further worry that All the reasoning in the world will not help me answer that question from Bob you are neglecting to draw some vital implications from the irremediable fact that Bob. Is. Dead. And cannot pose questions or reproaches. Whether your daughters do the youthful experimentation bit or not (it's quite possible they will; it's more than likely they will go on to be reasonably happy and functional adults as so many have before; you might want, at appropriate moments, to talk up the perils of driving under the influence of any intoxicant and particularly of riding with an impaired driver), and whether your wife sees the stuff as being negligibly harmful, has nothing to do with Bob's opinions in these matters--he has none; he has not existed to have opinions since the night of his death--and everything to do with your own obsessive projections. This is magical thinking of a type considerably farther out in the ether than the "marijuana is not harmful mindset" you are so concerned about. I am sorry that your personal tragedies have resonated so deeply, but we cannot make social policy just to lay Bob's ghost for you. It appears that this thread has stirred up some issues within you. I'm no therapist (have you considered that route?), but it seems to me that the time to address these issues is before the Daughters and the Dreaded Drug becomes Topic A over dinner, and before these unresolved feelings cause you to say something truly boneheaded to your wife (I know a thing or about feminine moral accounting, young man, and let me tell you if you haven't noticed already that these debits stay in the ledger a long, long time). This doesn't mean you have to come over to our way of thinking ("Yield! Embrace the Dark Side!"), but you need to be able to talk these things over with your near and dear without the dead hand of a youthful tragedy choking the reason out of you. Make this effort and I predict that you will both avert a measure of domestic discord and position yourself to make a more persuasive case to your daughters when the time comes. Good luck. cordially, [edit: duplicate word] "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist." Edited by rcareaga April 25, 2003, 03:40:28 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #98,780 by mmoffitt 4/25/03 3:36:05 PM Reply	Thanks. I have had some therapy about this. Perhaps the best came from my mom. I told her how I felt and what I had said to my wife shortly after I made that comment. She was, to say the least, startled. She asked me why, when I was so clearly devoted to my wife, and loved her so much, would I intentionally seek to destroy my marriage? That's why we (the wife and I) haven't discussed it. I have been unable in the 30 years following that tragedy to put it behind me. It will, I fear, forever color my judgement on this issue. I bring this all up not out of a yearning for any pity, but because I made such a big deal about intellectual honesty in this thread. I felt compelled to acknowledge my own shortcomings to clear thinking wrt the issue at hand. As I've calmed some now, I look back on this as very therapeutic. Despite all of my arguments here, my opposition to marijuana use is an extremely emotional, deeply personal one that does not lend itself to reason. Intellectually I know that I am a bigot of the worst stripe. When I see some one smoke (haven't in years, but often did) in the recesses of my mind I believe "they're just like the murderers of my friends". Irrational yes, but nonetheless real for me. It was not until this thread that I could see that clearly and I am quite surprised at myself. "They're all like that" is not a phrase I would ever consider coming from my mouth. Yet, for more than 30 years I have held such. This discussion has been truly enlightening for me and I owe all who assailed me during it, and in particular you rc, a serious debt. I've learned quite a bit about myself, and it is mostly unpleasant. Take care and happy puffing (if you're inclined). bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #98,781 by rcareaga 4/25/03 4:00:15 PM 4/25/03 4:04:22 PM Reply	Re: Thanks. It sounds as though your mother (earlier accounts, or my memories thereof, were unclear--was she also the victim of a toked-up driver?) has been able to put the past behind her. I don't know that you should be quite so resigned to never being able to bring your rational faculties to bear on the issue--I repeat that if you could see the issue clear you could make the best possible case contra to your daughters, whereas if you merely trot out some variation of the RKJ that started this thread unreeling they will, at best, hear you out politely and then make the finger-twirling-at-the-temple gesture when your back is turned, typically a sign that one's arguments have not carried all before them. You're being a bit hard on yourself when you say "I know that I am a bigot of the worst stripe." Your mind may be rusted shut on this issue; we both know members here whose minds are welded shut in other matters. Finally, as to "happy puffing (if you're inclined)," a rather complex set of largely unrelated circumstances make this impractical for the nonce--and anyway, I'd found by my mid-twenties that it was as apt to make me feel stupid and anxious/depressed as it was to boost my spirits. "Hell," thought I, "if I'm going to get stupid, I might as well get stupid and exhilarated," and hoisted the first (I came to it late) of many tall frosties. But whether or not I take personal advantage of it I do hope I live to see the day when the savage and senseless "war on drugs" abates. cordially, {edit: rogue synonym] "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist." Edited by rcareaga April 25, 2003, 04:04:22 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #98,785 by mmoffitt 4/25/03 4:49:20 PM Reply	Mom was in the car w/the 3 friends. Truly miraculous she survived. EMS found her lying on the gas tank that didn't explode (they were in a VW station wagon - gas tank up front at point of impact). She spent the next two years in various medical centers. Has had a lifetime of medical complications from that accident (as well as profound mental problems - all related, we think, to the fact that at impact the drivers seat bolts broke and the seat with Bob still in it flew out the back of the car, striking my mother on the head in addition to driving her right leg's ball joint up under her collar bone, tearing a lung and exploding her pelvis, among other things). The driver and his wife and the girl seated next to my mom were all killed. The tokers were walking around at the scene (they had a much larger car). Their worst was a broken arm. The car they hit (the one my mom was in) killed 3 and left 4 kids motherless and 2 orphans. Oldest in the car was Bob, aged 36, mom was 34. Hell of a thing. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #98,787 by deSitter 4/25/03 4:58:32 PM Reply	Re: Mom was in the car w/the 3 friends. We all have crosses to bear. The love of my life wiped herself out on coke, something I've never had any use for. I watched another woman destroyed by barbituates. Yet I am in favor of decriminalizing all drugs, because making criminals out of people who are in too much pain to handle life, is the solution to exactly nothing. I'm sorry about your Mom. Would it be any better for her if Billy Graham were driving the other car? Some random drunk? Accidents happen. Driving is dangerous for the sober, as well as the stoned. -drl
Post #98,789 by mmoffitt 4/25/03 5:13:03 PM Reply	BG driver no better, but it wasn't, was it? Understand your sentiment and point, though ;-) bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"

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