Ever heard of Mandela? King? Gandhi?

Post #93,842 by mmoffitt 4/2/03 5:22:09 PM Reply	Ever heard of Mandela? King? Gandhi? I didn't say it was an easy choice, but she would not have been the first to be incarcerated for standing on principal would she? Nice duck of the "she volunteered" though. Impressive, ... truly. bcnu, Mikem Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Post #94,133 by Mike 4/3/03 3:50:03 PM Reply	LOL Now why on EARTH would you expect your AVERAGE trooper to rise to the standards achieved by certain EXCEPTIONAL people? I naturally will conclude that you have first elevated yourself to these standards and that you are refusing to go to work and pay taxes etc etc. to resist this regime you so passionately disagree with. Thought not. Hells bells you DON'T disagree THAT much! Am I right? What the heck is to duck about "volunteered"? When people volunteer a very large percentage are hoping and praying that they NEVER have to go to war and NEVER have to kill ANYONE. Sure they understand that they might be called on ...... and if so they hope it will be for a just cause ...... but ultimately they are volunteering to serve a higher authority......a higher authority we (collectively) vote for. To be able to pick and choose which causes you will/will not act upon could make a mockery of many of our institutions (and not just the military). I think deep down you know this. But its masked by your desire to somehow throw some culpability onto the shoulders of ANYONE associated with this war in ANY way. Tell you what....when they volunteer they definitely don't hope to be treated like pariahs by ingrates whose freedoms to be assholes they are protecting. -Mike "My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier." (The Onion)
Post #94,188 by mmoffitt 4/3/03 8:02:47 PM Reply	Pap again. Tell you what....when they volunteer they definitely don't hope to be treated like pariahs by ingrates whose freedoms to be assholes they are protecting. Not surprising really. People with your mindset have always held that "No one will believe a little lie. It must be a big lie, and repeated often. Then it becomes truth." bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #94,358 by Mike 4/4/03 11:56:27 AM Reply	Nice dodge. Addressing 5% of the post :-) "My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier." (The Onion)
Post #94,361 by mmoffitt 4/4/03 12:03:46 PM Reply	That's what happens. When < 5% makes any sense at all. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #94,385 by Mike 4/4/03 2:06:03 PM Reply	And funnily enough........ ......also when one has no answers for 95%. So now I am to believe that you elected to not point out shortcomings in a position you disagree with? Works for me! "My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier." (The Onion)
Post #94,397 by mmoffitt 4/4/03 2:50:29 PM Reply	Are you really that thick? Or just trying to say the same stupid things over and over and over and over until I don't respond and you think "Oh Goodie! I won again!" Briefly, if I can read through the nonsense of your LOL post, your rebuttal to my submission that "Yes, they [the troops] too could have stood on principle, but chose not to" is: 1) I'm not taking a vow of poverty (which would include a vow for my wife and two kids), so I can't mean what I say. I can't imagine what brand of logic one uses to make that an argument in favor of, "But the volunteer militia doesn't have any choice". 2) Gandhi, Mandella, King, etc. were not human beings, they transcended that. Consequently, no other human being can stand on principle even if it costs them something. That is ridiculous on its face. 3) I suffer from a serious ego problem. Because, apparently, no one can hold the view that one can fail to go along with the pack simply because they are a member of the pack unless they consider themselves "EXCEPTIONAL". Ibid. 4) We shouldn't question authority, because if we do we threaten all of our institutions. Ibid. See, 95% nonsense, (and I'm being kind). bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #94,401 by Mike 4/4/03 3:19:08 PM Reply	The last word is yours (and thankyou :-) ) >> 1) I'm not taking a vow of poverty (which would include a vow for >> my wife and two kids), so I can't mean what I say. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm pointing out that you feel at liberty to hold everyday people to the high standards of certain outstanding people such as Gandhi....while leaving yourself exempt. It has nothing to do with you meaning what you say. Zilch. Nada. Nichts. Rien. I'm not sure its a particularly complicated argument ......but you clearly are having more success avoiding it than you are at grasping it. -Mike Who is quite certain you mean what you say. And is equally certain that you've got your head ......... naaaaaah I think I'll take the high road. P.S. Didn't Gandhi have a family too? "My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier." (The Onion)
Post #94,416 by mmoffitt 4/4/03 5:04:43 PM Reply	Just one more thing, sorry ;-) WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm pointing out that you feel at liberty to hold everyday people to the high standards of certain outstanding people such as Gandhi....while leaving yourself exempt. It doesn't take "outstanding people". How many protestors have been arrested here (and elsewhere) for protesting the war? Hell, I was arrested once (under age - which I wouldn't tell them, as soon as they found out I was 16, they got me the hell out of CJ [County Jail]. AFAIK, nothing ever showed up on my record) when I joined some college students at a protest. You make the point that some people who enlist in the Armed Forces do so "hoping they never have to kill anyone." Way back, I suggested that was a very ill considered thing to do. You can't join any militia if you aren't ready to say, "Okay, my college tuition is worth killing some one for, or at the very least, worth helping others kill some people for - i.e. PFC Lynch." Now if these folks really believe that, they are immoral (in my book, and I suspect the books of the majority). If, as you say, (and yes, as I suspect) a good many of the enlistees hadn't thought about killing anyone when they joined up, then they are at best naive. But if they were truly only naive when they signed up, then they don't have to be an "outstanding person" to say, "No, I don't want to kill. I don't even want to contribute to killing. Because my having to spend some time in the brig is better than my becoming an accomplice to murder." And no, I'm not exempt. But then, I didn't enlist did I? bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"

Welcome to IWETHEY!