Post #93,777
4/2/03 2:00:13 PM
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Well said. But I differ even with you.
The grunts have no choice. It's not up to them whether they are in Iraq or Texas.
Yes they did and Yes it is up to them where they are. They volunteered, remember? The only way they can't be held responsible is if they were/are mentally insufficient to understand the implications of volunteering. And even in such a case, I'd still claim they had a choice when the marching orders came.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,786
4/2/03 3:04:16 PM
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FYI
Uniform Code of Military Justice ART. 85
(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.
Some option huh?
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
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Post #93,791
4/2/03 3:12:55 PM
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Thanks Mike.
I thought I remembered death being the punishment for desertion in the time of war (IIRC, that only applies to battlefield desertion), but since I wasn't sure, didn't want to include it in my answer, which is posted below your reply.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
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Post #93,842
4/2/03 5:22:09 PM
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Ever heard of Mandela? King? Gandhi?
I didn't say it was an easy choice, but she would not have been the first to be incarcerated for standing on principal would she?
Nice duck of the "she volunteered" though. Impressive, ... truly.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #94,133
4/3/03 3:50:03 PM
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LOL
Now why on EARTH would you expect your AVERAGE trooper
to rise to the standards achieved by certain EXCEPTIONAL
people?
I naturally will conclude that you have first elevated yourself to these
standards and that you are refusing to go to work and pay taxes etc etc.
to resist this regime you so passionately disagree with. Thought not.
Hells bells you DON'T disagree THAT much! Am I right?
What the heck is to duck about "volunteered"?
When people volunteer a very large percentage are hoping and praying that
they NEVER have to go to war and NEVER have to kill ANYONE.
Sure they understand that they might be called on ...... and if so they hope
it will be for a just cause ...... but ultimately they are volunteering
to serve a higher authority......a higher authority we (collectively)
vote for.
To be able to pick and choose which causes you will/will not act upon
could make a mockery of many of our institutions (and not just the military).
I think deep down you know this. But its masked by your desire to somehow
throw some culpability onto the shoulders of ANYONE associated with this war in ANY way.
Tell you what....when they volunteer they definitely don't hope to be treated
like pariahs by ingrates whose freedoms to be assholes they are protecting.
-Mike
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
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Post #94,188
4/3/03 8:02:47 PM
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Pap again.
Tell you what....when they volunteer they definitely don't hope to be treated like pariahs by ingrates whose freedoms to be assholes they are protecting. Not surprising really. People with your mindset have always held that "No one will believe a little lie. It must be a big lie, and repeated often. Then it becomes truth." bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #94,358
4/4/03 11:56:27 AM
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Nice dodge. Addressing 5% of the post :-)
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
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Post #94,361
4/4/03 12:03:46 PM
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That's what happens.
When < 5% makes any sense at all.
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #94,385
4/4/03 2:06:03 PM
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And funnily enough........
......also when one has no answers for 95%.
So now I am to believe that you elected to not
point out shortcomings in a position you disagree
with? Works for me!
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
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Post #94,397
4/4/03 2:50:29 PM
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Are you really that thick?
Or just trying to say the same stupid things over and over and over and over until I don't respond and you think "Oh Goodie! I won again!"
Briefly, if I can read through the nonsense of your LOL post, your rebuttal to my submission that "Yes, they [the troops] too could have stood on principle, but chose not to" is:
1) I'm not taking a vow of poverty (which would include a vow for my wife and two kids), so I can't mean what I say.
I can't imagine what brand of logic one uses to make that an argument in favor of, "But the volunteer militia doesn't have any choice".
2) Gandhi, Mandella, King, etc. were not human beings, they transcended that. Consequently, no other human being can stand on principle even if it costs them something.
That is ridiculous on its face.
3) I suffer from a serious ego problem. Because, apparently, no one can hold the view that one can fail to go along with the pack simply because they are a member of the pack unless they consider themselves "EXCEPTIONAL".
Ibid.
4) We shouldn't question authority, because if we do we threaten all of our institutions.
Ibid.
See, 95% nonsense, (and I'm being kind).
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #94,401
4/4/03 3:19:08 PM
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The last word is yours (and thankyou :-) )
>> 1) I'm not taking a vow of poverty (which would include a vow for
>> my wife and two kids), so I can't mean what I say.
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm pointing out that you feel at liberty to hold everyday people to the
high standards of certain outstanding people such as Gandhi....while
leaving yourself exempt.
It has nothing to do with you meaning what you say.
Zilch. Nada. Nichts. Rien.
I'm not sure its a particularly complicated argument
......but you clearly are having more success avoiding it than
you are at grasping it.
-Mike
Who is quite certain you mean what you say. And is equally certain that you've
got your head ......... naaaaaah I think I'll take the high road.
P.S. Didn't Gandhi have a family too?
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
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Post #94,416
4/4/03 5:04:43 PM
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Just one more thing, sorry ;-)
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm pointing out that you feel at liberty to hold everyday people to the
high standards of certain outstanding people such as Gandhi....while
leaving yourself exempt. It doesn't take "outstanding people". How many protestors have been arrested here (and elsewhere) for protesting the war? Hell, I was arrested once (under age - which I wouldn't tell them, as soon as they found out I was 16, they got me the hell out of CJ [County Jail]. AFAIK, nothing ever showed up on my record) when I joined some college students at a protest. You make the point that some people who enlist in the Armed Forces do so "hoping they never have to kill anyone." Way back, I suggested that was a very ill considered thing to do. You can't join any militia if you aren't ready to say, "Okay, my college tuition is worth killing some one for, or at the very least, worth helping others kill some people for - i.e. PFC Lynch." Now if these folks really believe that, they are immoral (in my book, and I suspect the books of the majority). If, as you say, (and yes, as I suspect) a good many of the enlistees hadn't thought about killing anyone when they joined up, then they are at best naive. But if they were truly only naive when they signed up, then they don't have to be an "outstanding person" to say, "No, I don't want to kill. I don't even want to contribute to killing. Because my having to spend some time in the brig is better than my becoming an accomplice to murder." And no, I'm not exempt. But then, I didn't enlist did I? bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #93,788
4/2/03 3:10:35 PM
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They volunteered, remember
To defend the United States and to obey the lawful orders of their superiors.
How many of those volunteers enlisted since Bush sent the troops to Iraq? Those that did are still in training. Basic traing is 6-8 weeks and then there's the job training lasting another 6 weeks to 6 months depending upon the job.
These kids wanted to defend the US, get job training, fund an education or some of the above. None of the current soldiers signed up to attack Iraq. These kids are faced with a moral dilemma, perform their job even if they disagree with it, or desert (go AWOL) and face jail time and/or dishonorable discharge. Which is the lesser of two evils? The orders that they receive are legal orders.
Should we be in Iraq? - IMO No,
Does the president have the authority to send in troops? - Yes
Do I support his decision for a preemptive strike? - No.
Do I support the troops "in harm's way"? Yes.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
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Post #93,799
4/2/03 3:25:00 PM
4/2/03 4:47:05 PM
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Hmmm...
Ever go through the process of enlisting in the US Armed Forces? Evidently not. Once you sign the Last document (of about 300 when I did, and ~1800 Initialing) you are Property of the United States Government. You have these options: 1) Following the Lawful orders of your superiors.
2) See Option #1.
3) See Option #2.
4) See Option #3. TTFN. edit: insert the Lawful I forgot to put in... Thanks Brabeck!b4k4^2
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] | | [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|Microsoft develops apps for Linux by 2004] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at checkpoints. |
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Post #93,802
4/2/03 3:30:07 PM
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Not quite
Follow LAWFUL orders of your superior.
Tell me to attack Iraq, gotta do it.
Tell me to shoot non-combatants, gotta refuse.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
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Post #93,805
4/2/03 3:42:31 PM
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Yep
I don't know if they still do it, but when I was in you had to attend a class on exactly that subject. Your duty includes refusing to follow an illegal order. The class taught you how to do that in a lawful (UCMJ) manner.
The world is only a simple place to the simple.
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Post #93,808
4/2/03 4:02:08 PM
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Have we moved on? If not........
In your wildest dreams.....
wanna tell us what the fuck a supplies clerk was doing
shooting non-combatants?
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
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Post #93,810
4/2/03 4:04:20 PM
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Here's a question
What was a supply clerk doing in a hot zone?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #93,812
4/2/03 4:08:33 PM
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I want to say.....
....her team took a wrong turn. But heck that's only what our
utterly unreliable press have reported.
Failing that....let's say she was ordered to be there to do
supply clerking stuff (is that illegal?).
Good question though.
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
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Post #93,815
4/2/03 4:13:18 PM
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Legal -Illegal
Failing that....let's say she was ordered to be there to do supply clerking stuff (is that illegal?).
Yes, that is a legal order, one that she was/is complied to obey.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
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Post #93,818
4/2/03 4:14:50 PM
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I think we're on the same page
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
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Post #93,813
4/2/03 4:09:39 PM
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Wondered that myself.
I don't know what her duties are.
Since she was attached to a maintenance unit, perhaps it was something along the lines of recording supplies used/needed for maintenance.
They were in a hot zone because they took a wrong turn on their way to fix something. Helluva wrong turn. :-P
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #93,814
4/2/03 4:10:41 PM
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Someone has to resupply the front lines...
Or do you mean "Why has the military failed to advance a pace where they could secure the supply lines"?
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
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Post #93,819
4/2/03 4:16:34 PM
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That's pretty much directly where that question takes you
The only conclusion that I can come up with is that the planning didn't include any contingency planning: as in, "what happens if there is no rebellion against Hussein by the population at large?"
Considering the noises coming out of the career military folks, I suspect that question got asked, but was dismissed by the People In Charge.
The right way to use a military is to say "here's the goal; figure out how to do it. Keep me briefed." I don't think that's how it happened.
This is the kind of thing that happens when decisions are driven by ideology rather than actual pragmatism.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #93,811
4/2/03 4:07:06 PM
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Start at the beginning of the thread...
It was said that she had a choice of being there. She didn't. Had to follow legal orders. Example was provided to show the difference between a legal order, attack Iraq and an illegal order, shoot non-combatants.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
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Post #93,816
4/2/03 4:14:14 PM
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All I was saying was....
...I think the issue of illegal vs. legal orders is
not especially germaine to the situation which PFC Lynch
found herself in.
"My purchase of a Hummer was inspired by our 1991 Gulf War victory. After this war, I'm buying an aircraft carrier."
(The Onion)
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Post #93,823
4/2/03 4:42:27 PM
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Oops... Will edit to be Correct...
I meant that too... How the HELL did I miss putting that IN...
/me slaps forehead.
b4k4^2
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] | | [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|Microsoft develops apps for Linux by 2004] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at checkpoints. |
|
