Post #62,633
11/13/02 9:15:42 AM
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Well, then, take up mmoffitt's challenge
Instead of invective, contribute fact (or, at least, reasonably specific opinion...).
jb4
"About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. "
-- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002)
(I wish more managers knew that...)
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Post #62,650
11/13/02 11:07:17 AM
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Start at the top (f*****g bog)
[link|http://www.bettered.org/1081/wrapper.jsp?PID=1081-6&CID=1081-121901A|GW Bush.]
Work your way down...through ALL OF THEM.
Are are you going to >pretend< as well that this "name that politician" shit is anything other than some candy-assed ploy to try and "guess" other people's motives or spend time saying "he doesn't really care" because you happen to disagree with his/her methods?
In addition...the statement was >all< Republicans. Not "Republican politians" or "Republicans currently holding office"...blanket >all Republicans<...just like a patented DeSitter rant about all those evil fucking bastards. Lets do a backhand calculation of the numbers here. Lets say. for simplicity, there are roughly 200 million folks of voting age in US. Half register. 100 million. Of that...half register independent. ok...now we're at 50 million. Government is split nearly 50/50...so lets say thats the party lines of those registered by party...so..25 million folks. Are we going to go on to say that anyone who >votes< Republican is an evil fucking bastard...well then add back another 25 million. You're at 50 million...roughly the number of folks that voted for GW. All of 'em...evil bastards.
Go through the site linked and count how many times the word >bipartisan< is used. If everybody inside the beltway is agreeing with everybody else...then worst case scenario (mmoffitts) has not one politician in >either< party giving a shit about education.
But why should I expect anything different from this crew?
Are you starting to understand why "never mind" was posted?
Facts my ass. Typical BOC ploy...make an assenine, unsupported statement with no basis in fact and then require facts from anyone who >dare< call you on it. Tired...tired...tired.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #62,653
11/13/02 11:17:14 AM
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Re: Start at the top (f*****g bog)
The issue was: Name ONE Republican of national prominence who makes a top issue of public education, and inner city public education in particular. You may go back to say, 1968.
Of course, I can't think of any Democrats offhand who fill the bill. Education is simply not a concern for voters, no matter what they privately think.
-drl
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Post #62,667
11/13/02 12:57:52 PM
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No it wasn't.
If it was, then he should have stated as such.
And my referenced politician >still applies<. It was a major platform item. It was campaigned.
To your point, however, education remains a much higher priority at the state and local level..and that, imo, is where it belongs. It may be a national priority...but it can't be fixed at that level.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #62,674
11/13/02 2:23:02 PM
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Minor correction:
Duh campaigned on national standard testing, not on improving the educational availability for said Chicago south-side kid. His campaign was to institute national testing, with schools that don't show the "required improvement in test scores" being subject to sanctions, including being shut down. This (not-so-)hidden agenda here was to attempt to reduce the influence of the various teachers' unions that are anathema to Republicans in general, and I assume, you in particular. (Yeah, I know...I know....)
For the record, some of those self-same Chicago south-side schools did not show the "required improvement", and are being shut down...without, of course, being replaced, improved, or otherwise upgraded (thereby lending the lie to Duh's "campaign"). The only "solution" to this situation is to bus the students from the shut-down schools to other schools, thereby increasing their calss sizes and pulling down their test score improvement, making them, in turn, subject to being shut down....
Duh has absolutely no intention in improving the education for that south-side kid. His agenda is union busting, period.
Next guess?
jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
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Post #62,676
11/13/02 2:25:46 PM
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<i>Zing!</i>
* bepatient staggers and falls from the rink as the audience hurl tomatoes and popcorn
-drl
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Post #62,679
11/13/02 2:51:03 PM
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I like tomatoes.
Now if I could only predict the stock market like I....
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #62,678
11/13/02 2:49:41 PM
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Guess you can't read.
And I must truly be clair-fucking-voyant... [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=62650|Are are you going to >pretend< as well that this "name that politician" shit is anything other than some candy-assed ploy to try and "guess" other people's motives or spend time saying "he doesn't really care" because you happen to disagree with his/her methods?] Hmmm. And jb even went one step further now and tells me MY OWN SECRET AGENDA!!! Holy Cross Batman...its so secret >EVEN I< didn't know about it. (and that merits a double f*****g **bog**) And put up. Show me. Prove it. Play your own game. Last I read..even after 3 charter school closings (2 to reopen in 03)...test scores in Chicago were UP! In other words...at least by any quantitative measure...like it or not (obviously you don't)...its working. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #62,699
11/13/02 5:01:28 PM
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I can
I read the Sun-Times every day - I read an article a few weeks ago (posted here in the Ross's Rants forum I think) about how numeracy among Chicagoans is at an historic low, and particularly among inner city (black) students.
-drl
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Post #62,704
11/13/02 5:30:21 PM
11/13/02 6:09:33 PM
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Well maybe...
...thats why the stats show year over year improvement on the Chicago Public Schools site...it can't get any worse.
And if it got >this< bad the old way...why in hell would anybody want to keep doing the same thing to try and make it better? "The same thing" is what got you there.
If the same schools keep churning out substandard results...why >should< they stay open in the same realm. Even if you add 3 to 4 to average class size in schools with better programs...the net is better education for >all<...which >is< the goal...is it not?
And why...as a parent...is it so >horrible< to be offered ones tax money paid for schools >back< if the product is not up to standard? One can get refunds for non - performance on alot of crap that is one hell of alot less important that one's kid's education.
Thats vouchers.
They're opposed. Federal funding to religious schools, taking needed money way...yadda yadda. Goverment supporting things other that >public< schools.
Well duh!...but the vouchers aren't government money...government money is a sham...its >our< money that is being wasted...and if you want it back in order to spend it where you can get quality...then that should be your right. Why should government be exempt from expectation of service if alternatives exist?
All of the above is OFF THE POINT...however. I gave one name...can give hundreds more...in office or out...that violate the initial premise. That only leaves the alternative of "yes BUT I don't think he >really< means it because >I< don't agree with what he's doing"
It was predicted. Call me Nostradamus.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
Edited by bepatient
Nov. 13, 2002, 06:09:33 PM EST
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Post #62,707
11/13/02 5:55:40 PM
11/13/02 7:21:58 PM
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Beep, sorry, gotta disagree here...
My dad works at the DoE (Department of Education), and has for about the past 10 years. He's a pretty sharp fellow, made the observation to me once that there are three types of people at the DoE:
1. Career bureaucrats.
2. Political appointees.
3. People who actually care about getting the kids an education.
You can tell #1 pretty easily - they're the guys who play turf war games. The difference between #2 and #3 is a little harder to tell - but not by much, because type #2 comes in, generally with a single issue (vouchers, busting the union, mandated testing, abolishing public education, etc.) and don't really bother to do much actual work, other than pushing the agenda they've been given. That, and they're harder to get rid of than the career bureaucrats.
Now, my dad did a fair amount of yelling about the general incompetence of the morons installed by the Clinton admin - a fair mix of #1 and #3, with a smattering of #2 - call it 45/45/10%. I asked him about the mix from the current admin - and he said it's been about 90% #2.
People who don't give a shit about how people get an education - they just don't want the government involved in it at all. The "agenda" from On High has pretty much been to on one hand force public schools to reach for higher and higher standards, while cutting their legs off with the other, so that they can be (as much as possible) abolished and replaced with private/privatized/parochial institutions - which, by the way, have no requirements to accept any given student.
At least, that's what he's been passing on to me. And no, he didn't vote for Clinton. He didn't vote for Shrub either, but he's that way.
DM: "OKay, you round the corner, and entering the alleyway, you see two men standing on eachother's shoulders."
*silence at the table*
Player: "F#$% it, we're fighting Cirque de Soleil! Run for your life!"
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Post #62,715
11/13/02 6:20:22 PM
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Exactly who are you disgreeing with?
Because your premise seems to support the fact that Republicans actually do give a shit about education (based upon your father's observations)...which is my point.
The rest I don't seem to see as disagreement with any particular point I've made.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #62,733
11/13/02 7:22:47 PM
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Mea culpa.
I put a '#3' where there should have been a '#2' - Oops. I've edited the post to reflect that.
:P
DM: "OKay, you round the corner, and entering the alleyway, you see two men standing on eachother's shoulders."
*silence at the table*
Player: "F#$% it, we're fighting Cirque de Soleil! Run for your life!"
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Post #62,736
11/13/02 7:32:39 PM
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Well...
...at least I see some level of disagreement there now.
Though I don't see #1 and #2 as necessarily being exclusionary from the 3rd group. But, as not being party to the conversation...I'll take it as written.
You going to extrapolate that population to "all Republicans"? I wouldn't think so...as you seem a shade more rational ( :p backatcha)
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #62,755
11/13/02 9:39:05 PM
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That's what I get for jumping in the middle of a thread...
...and not spawning a new one.
I wasn't actually trying to extrapolate to one party or the other. In fact, I generally consider both to be so full of shit that I'd rather live in an outhouse than either party's quarters - I was just disagreeing that the current administration has actually done much to help the current situation.
#1, by definition practically excludes being a part of #3. #1 (career bureaucrats) are literally unconcerned with the work that they're actually supposed to be doing - instead, they are concerned with a) keeping their job, b) doing as little work as possible, and c) maximizing their own political capital, with the aim of d) maximizing their salary.
#2, on the other hand, has an allergic reaction to actually doing any REAL work - and instead likes to preach to everybody else that if we just followed "Magic Formula #49" - flavor of the week bullshit, PHB special from Hell. Creates a bunch of make-work for everybody else, and doesn't actually get anything accomplished, including their own agenda.
Now, these are extremes - but the bullshit content that my dad has been seeing in the education department has definitely gone up quite a bit - TONS of busywork and do-nothing-go-nowhere-feelgood-studies-holding-up-idea-of-the-week wasting money that could actually be going to schools, instead of being studied to death.
In fact, that's the thing that has my father frustrated the most - whenever a study doesn't work out the way that Shrub's cronies want it, they sponsor another study.
And another.
And another.
And another.
Until finally, by some fluke, they get some data that they can twist around and make it support their position. Dad's a PhD in Statistics - so he's the guy who gets to do the twisting, whether or not he agrees with it. He's been doing a lot more twisting under the current admin than he was before...
DM: "OKay, you round the corner, and entering the alleyway, you see two men standing on eachother's shoulders."
*silence at the table*
Player: "F#$% it, we're fighting Cirque de Soleil! Run for your life!"
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Post #63,007
11/15/02 8:49:36 AM
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Oh, it's hardly a fluke...
[...]And another.
Until finally, by some fluke, they get some data that they can twist around and make it support their position. No fluke. Duh is legion for manufacturing the best data money can buy. jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
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Post #63,029
11/15/02 10:46:26 AM
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Hey - I didn't say it was THEIR fluke... :P
DM: "OKay, you round the corner, and entering the alleyway, you see two men standing on eachother's shoulders."
*silence at the table*
Player: "F#$% it, we're fighting Cirque de Soleil! Run for your life!"
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Post #62,703
11/13/02 5:27:43 PM
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Pshaw, BeeP
"prove" it / you mean like.. Whatever-TF *you* might actually personally think about a postulated problem.. several plies down in the veneer?
C'mon - yer role-playing hat 'round chere is by now solidly that of -
Peripatetic Pusillanimous Patsy for The Ruling Junta - since, no matter how egregious the performance of a handful of the 13,000 (with 3% GDP) or the rape of the 20,000,000 [at the Other end of the gravy train] with the SAME 3% slice of that Banana Republic Cream Pie:
You'll advocate for the debbil. Useful that, I agree.. since there seem to be few Armani-clad / Corp-ladder climbers hangin out in this here ghet-toe. So it's good for someone to do the dirty work and play along with supporting the insufferable. [BeeP - Hero of the Fray; Don't Kill the Messenger!]
But let's not confuse your utility-function with anything like your ever taking anything resembling a Stand? well - a half-Lap then - re the mischief done under the rubric of somebody's idea.. of what 'Republican' might mean in 2002.
Still waiting for that Conservation List! BTW - WTF are yer like-minded folk earmarking to 'conserve'.?. eschewing the usual blab-list with Freedom/Truth/Liberty -type pap, that is.
Won't AnyOne defend the substance of what these solid citizens want to preserve !? [besides just the very comfy Status-Quo and Freedom from all Regulation of the SOP back-room Dealz, that is].
Ashton
Puzzled West of Peoria
In a world of 'Conservatives' - where can one find someone who will have the guts to admit to being a Reactionary? cha cha cha
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Post #62,705
11/13/02 5:34:37 PM
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If you have a point...
...relevant to the current discussion (education) ...make it.
Otherwise.
(expletive removed) off!
We're not talking about what you want to talk about. Too bad. Keep harping on the 13000. Your trying to apply it to 50 million. (oh..sorry...they're all wannabes)
Yawn.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #62,710
11/13/02 6:00:02 PM
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Yes, in fact it seems that they Are: wannabes. Thou sayest.
Wow - is THAT the rationale for the 'conserving' thing, then ?? If I continue to push in a direction which concentrates the wealth even further.. I Shall Be Rewarded by
Winning the Lottery! - I shall be elected to the 13,000. If I Just Have Enough Faith and remain steadfast towards --->
My Me-Me-Me Goal!
Thanks for the near-as-we-get to confirmation, then, even if you didn't akshully mention whether you had a party Lotto card too, Comrade.
Oh, and - you don't see any relevance to the original prop. re Repub-Dubya's edjaKayshun plan?
Your proffered simplistic 'efficiency plan' for the spending of your money: is a familiar lateral arabesque end-run around the proposition that, America's growth (in the pre-Empire days) solidly derived from the actual providing of a truly PUBLIC Education for ALL Citizens\ufffd <<
And while Economists could dance on the head of that *Efficiency* pin for another century [and will - it's what they Do]: repealing that "National Attitude" is a far larger change than your pat dismissal implies. Think of such an "attitude change" as being on a similar scale to Another attitude change of late:
the fait accompli of the Shrub-Ashcroft Amendments to the US Constitution - in the really Really handy name of Security! Remember.. All Those Times -- when Every Admin buried its nasty manipulations under National Security exemption? Remember Dubya's er 'sealing' of all OTHER Presidents records ? (and much more, but let's not look at All the current soiled laundry).
(I just knew you would remember these things - steel trap mind and all)
Ashton
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Post #62,717
11/13/02 6:22:02 PM
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o0o
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #62,720
11/13/02 6:26:32 PM
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Parochial minds everywhere salute thy speechlessness.oO0Oo.
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Post #62,721
11/13/02 6:28:07 PM
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Hey bud...tried to bring you on subject...
maybe my universal translator is broke...cause it doesn't seem like you made it there.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #62,939
11/14/02 7:25:54 PM
11/14/02 7:26:49 PM
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I guess I can write better than you can read.
OK now, try to follow closely here. There will be a test afterward: From my post, I said (and I blockquote): Duh campaigned on national standard testing, not on improving the educational availability for said Chicago south-side kid. His campaign was to institute national testing, with schools that don't show the "required improvement in test scores" being subject to sanctions, including being shut down. This (not-so-)hidden agenda here was to attempt to reduce the influence of the various teachers' unions that are anathema to Republicans in general, and I assume, you in particular. The quiz begins here: Question 1: "Duh" in the quote above was: ____ A) A perjorative term I have used in the past to refer to George W. Bush. ____ B) A perjorative term I have never used in the past to refer to Bill Patient. If you answered B), go back to Hooked On Phonics 101. Question 2: Who is the owner of "This (not-so-)hidden agenda"? ____ A) The person referred to as "Duh" in the self-same paragraph. ____ B) The person posting the quoted paragraph ____ C) The person to whom the post replied ____ D) Ashton Brown If you answered A) you get another point. If you answered B) or C), again go back to Hooked On Phonics 101. If you answered D), pass me whatever it is you're smokin'. Question 3: What type of school was closed in Chicago? ____ A) Charter schools (An independent public school of choice, given a charter or contract for a specified period of time (typically five years) to educate children according to the school\ufffds own design, with a minimum of bureaucratic oversight.) _____ B) "Magnet" schools _____ C) Poor, dilapidated, South and West side elementary schools for which the heretofore Republican "leadership" in Springfield has abdicated its Constitutionally-mandated responsibility for adequately funding. _____ D) New Trier East High School. If you chose A) or B) you need to check your links a little more closely (or, go back to Hooked On Phonics 101). If you chose D), you need to pay a little more attention to your Northern Illinois geopolitics; New Trier's tax base is in Kenilworth and Winetka, two of the richest suburbs in the country. Hope you passed... jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Edited by jb4
Nov. 14, 2002, 07:26:49 PM EST
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Post #62,967
11/14/02 10:00:59 PM
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So "you" doesn't actually mean me when you're talking...
...to me. You included me in this "plot" by including me, by assumption, as a union buster. This (not-so-)hidden agenda here was to attempt to reduce the influence of the various teachers' unions that are anathema to Republicans in general, and I assume, you in particular. Provide links. The School Board in Chicago shows test scores rising. Other links show closures of 3 downtown Chicago charters. Anything else I'll take your word for as closing...but the available evidence shows the policy working...whether you like it or not. Show me something different. Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying the policy is perfect. I am also not saying the the procedure of change is painless. Chicago in particular has a long history of really screwing up the educational system. All I am saying is that the evidence available shows a marked improvement last year to this year. Unless shown otherwise...I have to go with the facts I'm presented. So unless you tell me that those kids from the closed schools weren't placed at all (thus not subjected to measure)...then the closings are apparently working to increase the general level of education. Again...show me differently. Shitcan the Hooked on Phonics crap and prove your case. Offer an alternative that we can discuss. Something other than bitch about the "new" way its being done. The "old" way wasn't working. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,010
11/15/02 8:58:11 AM
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So, does improved test scores == better education?
If you think so, then you discount the concept of "teaching to the test"? (See inthane-chan's discussion about DoE's type #2s [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=62707|elsewhere in this thread.])
jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
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Post #63,054
11/15/02 12:00:14 PM
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Until you offer a better methodology...
...thats the only measure available.
Throw that out...and there is no way to improve anything...because there is no way to measure improvement.
And again...opposition to the programs have always railed against testing...but offer no alternative source of data or measure.
Plus...if "teaching to the test" gets the kids to remember what the subject, verb and object of a sentence are...and teaches him to quickly subtract 2 from 10. Teach to it.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,065
11/15/02 1:27:17 PM
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Platitudes, platitudes, platitudes!
Plus...if "teaching to the test" gets the kids to remember what the subject, verb and object of a sentence are...and teaches him to quickly subtract 2 from 10. Teach to it. Except it doesn't! And even Duh's own make-a-"study"-to-order dudes have said that. Besides, those tests do not even test such mundanities as subject-verb-object identification, or diagramming, or "subtracting 2 from 10"...you cant diagram a sentence when you have to fill in a dot labelled A through E, and those tests permit calcaulators (so I guess it does teach you how to subtract 2 from 10...at least, it teaches you which buttons to push....) jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
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Post #63,071
11/15/02 2:06:04 PM
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*sigh* - Alternatives?
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,075
11/15/02 2:25:16 PM
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How about...
A Federal Government who doesn't threaten to shut your ass down if you don't have enough kids fill in the right dots? WTF is this? You're always railing against old, stodgy methods of instruction, how many fscking jobs do you think involve filling in little dots, within the timeframe, on a shitty little piece of paper?
I'm oversensitive on this. In high school I was told by my mathematics teacher that "some people get mathematics and some people don't. Nothing to be ashamed of, you just don't get it and never will." Why do you suppose he said that? Because I FAILED to commit to memory (or indeed, see the value of committing to memory) trigonometric identities! Why the fsck should I memorize that IF I CAN GENERATE THE IDENTITIES? Which is more important? The memorization of formulas or the ability to generate them? I'd say the latter, but if a student had poor rote memorization skills, but the intellect to generate the formulas, he'd still fail your "fill in the box" tests. Now, did society gain anything? I'd submit they lost something, and something more important.
Tests are popular because they don't require thought. All they require is regurgitation and they're easy to understand (Oh, you're and 80, you're a 90, you're a 40) but they don't really tell you anything.
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Post #63,082
11/15/02 2:46:04 PM
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*sigh*2 - Alternatives?
Until there is a better way to quantify and measure the system...there is no other objective basis to determine if one way is better than another.
Without that, there can be no improvement.
So while I understand your frustration...it does less than nothing to assist in the improvement of our educational system.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,095
11/15/02 4:07:39 PM
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?
I think we agree that standardized tests are not the answer, but you want to use them anyway? Or do you really think they measure "education" in any meaningful way? I think they're worse (as my anecdote demonstrated). You accuse me of contributing "less than zero", yet I cite an example where standardized tests contribute less than zero and you apparently agree (at least somewhat) but are willing to stick to them anyway? And I off no solutions?
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Post #63,112
11/15/02 4:32:55 PM
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I didn't read it that way
I read that as a statement that standardized testing is better than nothing, and that you haven't yet given any superior alternative other than repeated assertions that it's bad.
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Post #63,114
11/15/02 4:38:41 PM
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*clap*
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,113
11/15/02 4:38:00 PM
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Not quite.
I agree that the current tests may not be ideal. But they are currently the only viable source of objective data available.
That...again...is why I ask for alternatives instead of complaining about them.
Until an alternative obejective measure can be established...these tests are all we have. And we don't have time to invent something else. Thus, I advocate their use until an alternative is established. Short term we may look at ways to increase the test's applicability.
So lets get started on that.
Testing is going to have to be a cornerstone...especially in lower grades that are less concentrated on objective thinking and more concentrated on the fundamentals.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,142
11/15/02 6:58:09 PM
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But not your implicit presumption throughout:
That objective tests make sense in evaluating the entire *&%*&$ Gaussian of human beings! further implicit - that [some fucking-HOW].. a bunch of NUMBERS can, shall, Should! - actually indicate something 'Real'.
Never mind that your presumptions are Popular and oft-regurgitated. I assert that the mindset which imagines that ANY #*%& NUMBERS can remotely characterize.. other than a rote-learned list.. is fatally flawed at the root.
I OTOH go with A Einstein, things should be made as simple as possibe, but NOT SIMPLER [emph. add.] I also go with, for a second time in recent days - [link|http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Gatto.html| John Gatto], also [link|http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html|here].
CPA/Econ NUMBERS have gotten us squarely within simplistic useless ways of dealing with ALL evidently complex topics; no wonder our society is fucked and getting fuckeder - and nowhere more evidently than with THIS TOPIC.
You want simple. You want a number-characterization of Success. I want [at very least] - a wide-range of 'methods' via an equally wide-range of teacher talents: to produce results measured by ESSAY performance and not NUMBERS. Harder to multiply-'grade'? - You Bet.
Worth it? I BET.
Ashton
Neva hoppen though; we're hooked on EZ, not honest. And damn well not on - 'intelligent'.
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Post #63,223
11/16/02 11:52:14 AM
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Xactly. Well said.
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Post #63,247
11/16/02 1:52:16 PM
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It might very well have been.
But it won't >solve< anything.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,261
11/16/02 4:40:00 PM
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Notwithstanding this thread's length,
we started it off wrong. You and I will likely NEVER agree on how to "fix" education for a very simple reason. You and I have irreconcilable differences on what the product of an American education should be. Neither of us has discussed this, and I've yet to see a serious discussion of it anywhere. We can't know how to "correct course" until we know where we want to go. We can't know where we want to go until we agree on a destination. I suspect that the reason that "there are no easy answers" is because "there is no agreement" on what we seek of our public educational system. We will remain at odds about the fixes because we are trying to accomplish entirely different things.
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Post #63,327
11/16/02 9:33:28 PM
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I doubt that very much.
At least on the fundamentals I'd think we'd agree that having a vast majority of the population able to read and do basic mathmatics is a start. In alot of places we fail at even this simple task.
What else are you trying to accomplish?
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,357
11/17/02 12:36:22 AM
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How about a *civilized* population, while we're at it ??
That which requires a bit more than how to address the envelope to pay the MIN on one of yer un maxed-out CCs after a hard day flippin burgers; and enough historical lore to have some idea what the word civil-ization might connote (also what connote means).
Settle for less you say? Hey - we already Have. Like it? Should we save a few more bucks for Defense, say? Or maybe just Offense can do - if we're Quick.. and vicious enough, next.
Pshaw Beep
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Post #63,425
11/17/02 2:53:52 PM
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Priceless
Continue along on your (nearly) incomprehensible diatribes...all of the time telling us the evils of the world as we know it. Railing on me and anyone who you disagree with in, oh-so lofty terms...
Care to suggest a course or 2 in "civil-ization" that we can drop into a 3rd graders backpack? Make sure its a >really thin< book...because we have weight restrictions on learning now too...so we can make sure we're being really >nice< to everybody.
I got it. Lets everyone throw away all trappings of everything...grow our hair...go back to barter and live in nice communal settings.
Oh...wait...Johnny can't read or write...let alone apply a trade to make something of value in a barter society...Johnny doesn't understand basic unit of measure...hmmm...but I guess, in the interest of making nice, that requiring Johnny to (gasp) memorize some basic facts before we unleash him to the world is an uncivilized method of teaching.
At least mmoffitt and jb4 made an attempt at offering solutions.
You, on the other hand...seem to just want to drop in to tell me to feel sorry for myself for living >in the real world< (whether or not you like it here is beside the point)
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,488
11/17/02 9:19:23 PM
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We have no? little disagreement re Basics
(far as I can guesstimate from your occasional actually stated personal opinions)
We might argue about what Must be on that list, what Should be on that list. And you may be right that - only the basic survival skills might have be on the emergency list, for many years. I will still argue that we had better not stop with that crude-survival assortment, a month longer than necessary.
I do not deem it a trivial exercise to design.. these promised tests. And however clever might the tests become (??): that is still only Phase 0. We shall measure the damage. Maybe..
I have linked to a person I believe capable of answering more questions than you can ask; I suspect that he has some (small number) company - as to Phases 1 through ..42?
None of this topic could possibly be significantly altered in the reign of one Resident: it is that which I see as a huge hurdle; we Love the quarterly returns and.. Chortle at the cancelling-out of the previous Republicrat trends with the New Republicrat's ascension. If this pattern continues re Polit-football Edjakayshun -
How much more fucked can we get? I'd rather not find out. And I don't have any young kids to watch floundering (or I'd have been outta here much earlier).
Civility: is more important than math or history - you can't even begin to learn those, in a zoo. Much of That inculcation begins at 'home' - so as the bottom 20% lose ground every year: what do You think leads to a siege mentality in their little cheeldrun; street-wise from daily necessity? Gets back to wealth distribution every time, even for those with the iron gates - up on the hill. Don't it?
Ashton
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Post #63,290
11/16/02 7:08:27 PM
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No, 'saying it' won't.
But I submit that if.. more voices are not raised, speaking in intentionally polit-buzzword-free syntax - about what is wrong in our basic lazy ideas about 'assessing people': then no amount of money thrown at the package (that popular shibboleth) will make a slightest dent overall.
Can a 'modern' nation actually reconfigure its entire attitude and approach to something as massive in implications as this topic - a Problem with the momentum of the Titanic on a slalom course? Have we enough of the ilk of John Gatto - and will anyone Listen to them? Finally?
All I can see clearly-enough to bet on is: if the usual Left/Right, One-Party slogans are allowed to prevail in this area as everywhere else - it is moot. We shall continue our decline in overall 'citizen competence' as "things [we never pay to maintain] fall apart".
See.. for all the talk about "the cheeldrun" - we behave as if we don't really think THEY are as 'cost-effective' an investment as say - armaments and gasoline subsidies: THOSE are where we will SPEND BIG $$, kill / be killed, and where our largest Attention really is, especially with today's 'excuse' to further ignore The USA At Home. [oil] is Elsewhere, we see.
We could.. look at the budgets, methods of advanced countries - but natch, we see ourselves as #1: no need. Ditto re 'medicine'. Hmmm - a pattern?
Ashton
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Post #63,321
11/16/02 9:11:10 PM
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What do you prefer?
Do you prefer passing someone through high school until (still unable to read) he gets to college and even *thinks* he can get to college, but can't comprehend an English 101 class?
Testing won't solve how to teach this person how to read, but it will sure show that he can't read at a point where maybe he *can* be taught.
*I* expect that, at the end of first grade, all first graders will be able to read (maybe not comprehend what they're reading, but still be able to read) and do simple addition and subtraction. Standardized testing won't find that out (geez, try giving a first grader a standardized test.) An exercise of reading out loud from a simple book (no, not the Run Spot Run books, which I fortunately never had), but something maybe out of Dr. Seuss.
Of course *that* is never going to be able to be standardized, and really it's at first grade we need to catch any problems in teaching methods and learning problems.
But as he says, what is *your* suggestion for an alternative to standard testing?
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Post #63,358
11/17/02 12:57:54 AM
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Re: What do you prefer?
For the edjaKayshun Resident to top his agenda with 'Testing' and have no remotely incisive idea of ~ the shambles of the system which has brought us 'measurably increasing' dumbth, is par for the course. The course of mere political slogan trading with no brains or actual concern behind the slogans. Yes of course *some* means must measure how far we have fallen - so what? It's Nothing compared with the will to seriously proceed; to place Home USA infrastructure repair over a likely series of wars against folks we think Might.. not like us and might.. commit suicide to act on the dislike.
I've already linked to at least One person who could walk even a Dubya and the Oil-guys through: what needs to be done + (I cannot doubt) a number of feasible approaches to making the transition. It can't be done in even a few years: many years == well beyond any One Resident's political mini-plan du jour.
Gatto's time would be wasted - talking to a smoke blower. And That is all we're willing to put in power: BS artists who give a shit only about the Power and personal wealth gleaned from leveraging it.
Nationally - we'd pay Trillions in a wink of a Contractor's eye - for a mere illusion of 'security' against the enemies we add-to daily - but not a fraction of that time/money to *seriously* seek to recreate a working and excellent edu system. Won't happen. We're gonna do wars for a long time, next. We'll need the money == perfect excuse to Wait. As before and before that.
Never mind.
Ashton
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Post #63,111
11/15/02 4:30:29 PM
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As an aside, what's with diagramming anyway?
I had exactly one English class in grade school where we diagrammed anything. I doubt that I'd be able to diagram my way out of a wet paper bag nowdays.
If you know what verbs, nouns, adverbs, and so forth are, how does diagramming a sentence help? By the time you can diagram a sentence, you already know the stuff. (Don't you?)
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Post #63,557
11/18/02 10:09:32 AM
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Re: As an aside, what's with diagramming anyway?
Well, let me take a stab at this (because I'm not really sure I disagree with your premise...).
IF you indeed know the parts of speech, and how (and where) to use them in a sentence, diagramming is likely of little use...except as an exercise.
However, I would maintain that the exercise does have merit, if for no other reason than it gives the Nintendo generation a chance to think in the abstract; to use meta-English (if there is such a thing) to describe English. Also, by requiring mastery (or, at least, cognisance [sic]) of a new and different abstract "language" and notational form for representing something, it will exercise a part of the brain that would otherwise remain dormant for a Nintendoers entire life (unless, of course, said Nintendoer were to accidentally be exposed to music notation).
Yes, I also could not diagram my way out of a wet paper bag myself these days, and I really hope I don't have to anytime soon. But I do feel that I am better for having done (survived?) the exercise, and would argue that it should be a part of a well-rounded person's education.
jb4
"They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink."
Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
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Post #63,562
11/18/02 10:22:06 AM
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Re: As an aside, what's with diagramming anyway?
Not really - there are unintuitive structures (gerunds for example) that are better grasped after diagramming.
I found diagramming to be extremely interesting. It's the best preparation for learning a new language.
-drl
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Post #63,565
11/18/02 10:38:31 AM
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Yahoo!
Give that man a cigar! It's the best preparation for learning a new language. Especially languages that don't follow similar structural patterns to our own. Mapping is just an visual exersize ... kids learn better with visuals. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #63,569
11/18/02 10:54:16 AM
11/18/02 10:54:57 AM
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Re: Yahoo!
I am going to the store.
I am going to be an astronaut.
I am going crazy.
All have different diagrams.
-drl
Edited by deSitter
Nov. 18, 2002, 10:54:57 AM EST
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Post #62,742
11/13/02 8:18:48 PM
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VERY Nicely done. Thank you.
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