voted against the class size ammendment and demo for gov

Post #61,335 by boxley 11/6/02 10:11:14 AM Reply	voted against the class size ammendment and demo for gov I dont think entitlement programs should be enshrined in the constitution as it gives pols less and less say over the budget and balooning automatic tax increases. After the bill is presented I think that one will be repealed. Think of the music, sports, art and library closures that will need to take place to implement that provision. I saw Anchorage AK do the same thing now the students shiver in the dark with no materials and piss poor teachers. Kids have to pay to their cars and there is zero amenities or tolerance. Dont want to see that here. Unlike what others say The florida school system is pretty decent. thanks, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Money for jobs? No first you get the job, then you get the money" Raimondo
Post #61,385 by bepatient 11/6/02 12:36:53 PM Reply	Great ideas....bad laws There's nothing wrong with the ideas ivolved in something like "mandatory class sizes"...you want every kid to have a chance at a good education...>both sides do<...the problem is with the Democratic methodology...writing something like that into law makes the system too inflexible...turns it into an entitlement of sorts. In a word...its unmanageable. Great idea. Shitty plan. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #61,427 by mmoffitt 11/6/02 3:17:56 PM Reply	Bullshit. you want every kid to have a chance at a good education...>both sides do<... I have never seen any Republican show any interest in making sure any kid not born to one of them ever got a decent, let alone "good" education. They want sheep, like the idiots making 20K/year who are actually HARMED by Republican policies but who "identify with the aristocracy" or who through envy continue to support the Neo-Fasciti in the US. We are really going to deserve the next several decades. No, the problems won't disappear when His Profound Stupidness gives up his appointment as President, there will be far too many lifetime appointments on the bench by then for that. I can think of no stronger condemnation for a nation than "George W. is a popular President in that country."
Post #61,429 by Simon_Jester 11/6/02 3:27:01 PM Reply	Hmm... I have never seen any Republican show any interest in making sure any kid not born to one of them ever got a decent, let alone "good" education. Why not just call them [link\|http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/94317_kristof06.shtml\|IULWs : Idiot Usurping Lying Weasels ] and get it over with? (You point is noted however, that Republicans, in general, value lower taxes over increases in expenditure for education. However, they are sure to note that spending money is not indictive of receiving quality.)
Post #61,768 by Ashton 11/7/02 10:22:37 PM Reply	Re: Hmm... ___[argument impossible here] Kristof rails at what has been the Murican style since the first. His railing is entirely sane, if apparently irrelevant in the current milieu - where the labels mean absolutely nothing. ie textbook Reactionaries wear the shawl of 'Conservative'. Opposing these is deemed 'Liberal' - whereas the opposition is hardly more than Right-of-Center! There is no Murican 'Liberal' organization - certainly not the Demo Party (!) No point in 'arguing' within this massacre of language itself. Class Warfare shall reign soon if not next - especially in our euphemistic fantasy which tells the cheeldrun, "we are a classless society". Silly US. (Hah - tell us about the ~ 13K folks who control 8% of It All, an amount ~~ same as the bottom 20 Million. 13k/20,000K "classless" all right. (#s per Paul Krugman's NYT article)) I suspect that I join Bill and some others in at least one 'commonality': NO Murican ersatz 'political party' comes within a light-year of 'my views'; I believe that.. I am acquiring more and more company each week (in this regard) - though certainly not yet in any Organization I know of. Ashton
Post #61,430 by deSitter 11/6/02 3:27:41 PM Reply	It Is All Fear We Americans know that if we fall, then we will get up ourselves or be trampled. The absolute certainty of this leads to an existential fear that overpowers everything else. The office holders themselves may be the very people who suffer most from this fear. All the statements about opportunity and shining hill cities and all that bunk is simply the end result of massive denial of the festering, gnawing fear at the center of everything. Any issue can be analyzed from this perspective. -drl
Post #61,453 by boxley 11/6/02 5:28:41 PM Reply	it may well end up in open class warfare presidency coming to be along family lines, tax methods to strangle the middle class with an arbitrary glass ceiling that only criminals and born ins get past and an educational system that is primarily a baby sitting indoctrination school to turn out "well adjusted" know nothings. When I see a school sponsored bumper sticker that sez "My Kid knows that building character is the most important thing" and the elementary school name under it proves that learning knowledge is of no value to these people. These policies are being shaped by the ignorance being taught in universities under the direction of the aristocratic class and the pseudo intellectuals. It is time to attack the system at all points in every slimey way you can get away with it. Boink their empty headed wifes and daughters and sons. Take them on the business field and make them look as stupid as they are. Unionize the poor. Shoplift from *mart and only buy second hand with cash. If you ever have to rub shoulders with them sneer down your nose if they take on airs. Practice the putdowns ahead of time so they sound natural. Pee on the tires of their automobiles and into their desk drawers. To Arms!!!! thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Money for jobs? No first you get the job, then you get the money" Raimondo
Post #61,468 by jb4 11/6/02 5:45:30 PM Reply	Box-this sounds positively Left-Wing! And no smiley to tip the sarcasm... Hmmmm... jb4 "About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. " -- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002) (I wish more managers knew that...)
Post #61,469 by inthane-chan 11/6/02 5:51:13 PM Reply	Contrary to popular belief... Box isn't exactly a die-hard conservative - I'd nail him more libertarian than anything else, although that may be damning with faint praise. His basic attitude seems to be "stop screwing me 'n mine, get the fuck out of my way, and let me do what I want with my own property." There are some subtle nuances I've left out, but I think I've gotten the gist of his politics... End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
Post #61,488 by boxley 11/6/02 7:06:48 PM Reply	close enough when both the left and the right want to lock you up for different reasons you are close to my position. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Money for jobs? No first you get the job, then you get the money" Raimondo
Post #61,461 by bepatient 11/6/02 5:39:07 PM Reply	Oh puleaze You're starting to sound like Ross. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #61,608 by mmoffitt 11/7/02 10:33:45 AM Reply	Ross ain't all wrong.
Post #61,764 by bepatient 11/7/02 10:03:31 PM Reply	But in this case, you certainly are. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,334 by mmoffitt 11/11/02 11:10:08 PM Reply	How can I be wrong about my own observations?
Post #62,382 by Ashton 11/12/02 6:18:58 AM Reply	Better wrong than.. too far Right, no?
Post #62,487 by mmoffitt 11/12/02 3:48:58 PM Reply	Okay. Count them. How many Republicans do you know that want every kid born in South Chicago to be able to go to an Ivy League college and is willing to contribute something personally, or to sacrifice ANYTHING in order to afford those kids the opportunity? I swear, I do not know one single.
Post #63,359 by folkert 11/17/02 1:20:49 AM Reply	Well... I would be a repbuplican rather than a Democrat... And I would do that! I would do that for those in the Smokies, in Alabama, in Harlem, in East LA... you get the point here... but you know, when it comes right down to it... None of the Democrats would never do it either... I'd rather NOT be a republican, nor a Democrat, Libertarian 'tis not my way either... Pretty much, I favor less government, less laws, more Law Enforcement, more Health care, more guarantees of freedoms, while still keeping a modicum of restrictions, common sense for the general public, Iron-Fist for the Stupid people commiting crimes regarded as more than trivial(speeding, running a light... but not drunk driving etc... involuntary manslaughter). And yes there are some intentional grey areas, subject to judicial/peer review... Protection of property is fair, with deadly force, depends on the situation. Federal Subsidies for farmers to NOT grow crops... would end. Subsidies for MORE lawyers would end... Incentives to have more kids, rather than go to work would end... Stupid Loopholes EVERYONE need to be closed tightly. Some laws should be repealed, others just flat out dropped. (ones like "No talking a shark for a walk on main street"). All these "black/secret" programs just become White/non-secre. PACs would cease to be able to contact government representatives. More time spent addressing the issues in congress, rather than philibustering, or stonewalling... just make dam prgress... Bi-Partisan would be a thing of the past... should have a ton of parties. BLAH!!!!! Sorry, just fed up with the stupid system in place "for my protection". as well as the Multiple "Warz" we are raging (War on Drugs, War on Terrorism, War on Poverty, War on Hunger, War with Israel on Palestine, War on Afghanistan, War on <insert pet war here>) `[link\|mailto:curley95@attbi.com\|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!] Your friendly Homeland Security Officer reminds: Hold Thumbprint to Screen for 5 seconds, we'll take the imprint, or Just continue to type on your keyboard, and we'll just sample your DNA.`
Post #62,396 by bepatient 11/12/02 8:19:48 AM 11/12/02 8:22:50 AM Reply	never mind You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Nov. 12, 2002, 08:22:50 AM EST Expand All History
Post #62,523 by Ashton 11/12/02 6:26:09 PM Reply	Yup.. mindless threads just grow__ like ..~~Topsy!~~ witless generalizations masquerading as Insight.
Post #62,562 by mmoffitt 11/12/02 8:44:37 PM Reply	Disprove it then, cowards. Give a Repo as a counter-example.
Post #62,594 by boxley 11/12/02 10:00:01 PM Reply	sorry what are you refering to? will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Fifty-one percent of a nation can establish a totalitarian regime, suppress minorities and still remain democratic." Correction: All that can be achieved with 51 percent of the voters!" Ilanna Mercer
Post #62,595 by Ashton 11/12/02 10:01:05 PM Reply	These (examples) are Legion, of course.. I was just commenting on the pointlessness of trite contradiction and.. BeeP's fondness for dropping the contentfree generality - so much more vacuous (if one paid for an actual argument ;-) Akshully... 'outrage' appears to have been purchased from the Murican populace at large - maybe in a mail-in coupon deal? (along with the earlier two-fer at bargain rates: shame and humility. Those two appear to have been traded for comfort and the leather seats on the $3K lawn tractor). So I guess it isn't surprising that the Compassionate folk have so much trouble specifying WTF it is they want to umm 'conserve' [?] except the really Neat-o status-quo.. fer Them 13,000 folks what own as much stuff as the 20,000,000 at the Other end of the shtik. (Cthulhu Knows.. I've tried to find out! but all I get is boilerplate blabwords about Freedom n' guns n' stuff). Oh well.. Ashton
Post #62,613 by bepatient 11/13/02 2:06:36 AM Reply	Stick it up.... (you can finish that yourself...smart guy) [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=61427\|I have never seen any Republican show any interest in making sure any kid not born to one of them ever got a decent, let alone "good" education. They want sheep, like the idiots making 20K/year who are actually HARMED by Republican policies but who "identify with the aristocracy" or who through envy continue to support the Neo-Fasciti in the US.] >that< is the "content free generalization". Or his defense is...its just his "observation" and my comment was that it sounded an awful lot like Ross saying "all repos are evil bastards". Its idiocy. Its unfounded. And the "never mind" was because it is so far fucking removed from reality that its not even worth the goddamned time to even bother posting about. And your anti rich diatribe (while old) is even further removed from the original statement. Tired. Its just fucking tired. It ain't all inside the beltway. And neighborhoods are what schools are based on. So why don't y'all run around the corner to your local PTA meeting and tell one of them registered Republicans he don't give a shit about the quality of education in the schools. You can't fix it for just >one< student. Sometimes I don't even know why I bother. Y'all can live in your fantasy land of one side being oh so pure and the other being evil nasty bastards....it seems to make you comfortable. </rant> You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,633 by jb4 11/13/02 9:15:42 AM Reply	Well, then, take up mmoffitt's challenge Instead of invective, contribute fact (or, at least, reasonably specific opinion...). jb4 "About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. " -- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002) (I wish more managers knew that...)
Post #62,650 by bepatient 11/13/02 11:07:17 AM Reply	Start at the top (f****g bog) [link\|http://www.bettered.org/1081/wrapper.jsp?PID=1081-6&CID=1081-121901A\|GW Bush.] Work your way down...through ALL OF THEM. Are are you going to >pretend< as well that this "name that politician" shit is anything other than some candy-assed ploy to try and "guess" other people's motives or spend time saying "he doesn't really care" because you happen to disagree with his/her methods? In addition...the statement was >all< Republicans. Not "Republican politians" or "Republicans currently holding office"...blanket >all Republicans<...just like a patented DeSitter rant about all those evil fucking bastards. Lets do a backhand calculation of the numbers here. Lets say. for simplicity, there are roughly 200 million folks of voting age in US. Half register. 100 million. Of that...half register independent. ok...now we're at 50 million. Government is split nearly 50/50...so lets say thats the party lines of those registered by party...so..25 million folks. Are we going to go on to say that anyone who >votes< Republican is an evil fucking bastard...well then add back another 25 million. You're at 50 million...roughly the number of folks that voted for GW. All of 'em...evil bastards. Go through the site linked and count how many times the word >bipartisan< is used. If everybody inside the beltway is agreeing with everybody else...then worst case scenario (mmoffitts) has not one politician in >either< party giving a shit about education. But why should I expect anything different from this crew? Are you starting to understand why "never mind" was posted? Facts my ass. Typical BOC ploy...make an assenine, unsupported statement with no basis in fact and then require facts from anyone who >dare< call you on it. Tired...tired...tired. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson}* [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,653 by deSitter 11/13/02 11:17:14 AM Reply	Re: Start at the top (f*****g bog) The issue was: Name ONE Republican of national prominence who makes a top issue of public education, and inner city public education in particular. You may go back to say, 1968. Of course, I can't think of any Democrats offhand who fill the bill. Education is simply not a concern for voters, no matter what they privately think. -drl
Post #62,667 by bepatient 11/13/02 12:57:52 PM Reply	No it wasn't. If it was, then he should have stated as such. And my referenced politician >still applies<. It was a major platform item. It was campaigned. To your point, however, education remains a much higher priority at the state and local level..and that, imo, is where it belongs. It may be a national priority...but it can't be fixed at that level. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,674 by jb4 11/13/02 2:23:02 PM Reply	Minor correction: Duh campaigned on national standard testing, not on improving the educational availability for said Chicago south-side kid. His campaign was to institute national testing, with schools that don't show the "required improvement in test scores" being subject to sanctions, including being shut down. This (not-so-)hidden agenda here was to attempt to reduce the influence of the various teachers' unions that are anathema to Republicans in general, and I assume, you in particular. (Yeah, I know...I know....) For the record, some of those self-same Chicago south-side schools did not show the "required improvement", and are being shut down...without, of course, being replaced, improved, or otherwise upgraded (thereby lending the lie to Duh's "campaign"). The only "solution" to this situation is to bus the students from the shut-down schools to other schools, thereby increasing their calss sizes and pulling down their test score improvement, making them, in turn, subject to being shut down.... Duh has absolutely no intention in improving the education for that south-side kid. His agenda is union busting, period. Next guess? jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Post #62,676 by deSitter 11/13/02 2:25:46 PM Reply	<i>Zing!</i> * bepatient staggers and falls from the rink as the audience hurl tomatoes and popcorn -drl
Post #62,679 by bepatient 11/13/02 2:51:03 PM Reply	I like tomatoes. Now if I could only predict the stock market like I.... You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,678 by bepatient 11/13/02 2:49:41 PM Reply	Guess you can't read. And I must truly be clair-fucking-voyant... [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=62650\|Are are you going to >pretend< as well that this "name that politician" shit is anything other than some candy-assed ploy to try and "guess" other people's motives or spend time saying "he doesn't really care" because you happen to disagree with his/her methods?] Hmmm. And jb even went one step further now and tells me MY OWN SECRET AGENDA!!! Holy Cross Batman...its so secret >EVEN I< didn't know about it. (and that merits a double f***g bog*) And put up. Show me. Prove it. Play your own game. Last I read..even after 3 charter school closings (2 to reopen in 03)...test scores in Chicago were UP! In other words...at least by any quantitative measure...like it or not (obviously you don't)...its working. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson}* [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,699 by deSitter 11/13/02 5:01:28 PM Reply	I can I read the Sun-Times every day - I read an article a few weeks ago (posted here in the Ross's Rants forum I think) about how numeracy among Chicagoans is at an historic low, and particularly among inner city (black) students. -drl
Post #62,704 by bepatient 11/13/02 5:30:21 PM 11/13/02 6:09:33 PM Reply	Well maybe... ...thats why the stats show year over year improvement on the Chicago Public Schools site...it can't get any worse. And if it got >this< bad the old way...why in hell would anybody want to keep doing the same thing to try and make it better? "The same thing" is what got you there. If the same schools keep churning out substandard results...why >should< they stay open in the same realm. Even if you add 3 to 4 to average class size in schools with better programs...the net is better education for >all<...which >is< the goal...is it not? And why...as a parent...is it so >horrible< to be offered ones tax money paid for schools >back< if the product is not up to standard? One can get refunds for non - performance on alot of crap that is one hell of alot less important that one's kid's education. Thats vouchers. They're opposed. Federal funding to religious schools, taking needed money way...yadda yadda. Goverment supporting things other that >public< schools. Well duh!...but the vouchers aren't government money...government money is a sham...its >our< money that is being wasted...and if you want it back in order to spend it where you can get quality...then that should be your right. Why should government be exempt from expectation of service if alternatives exist? All of the above is OFF THE POINT...however. I gave one name...can give hundreds more...in office or out...that violate the initial premise. That only leaves the alternative of "yes BUT I don't think he >really< means it because >I< don't agree with what he's doing" It was predicted. Call me Nostradamus. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Nov. 13, 2002, 06:09:33 PM EST Expand All History
Post #62,707 by inthane-chan 11/13/02 5:55:40 PM 11/13/02 7:21:58 PM Reply	Beep, sorry, gotta disagree here... My dad works at the DoE (Department of Education), and has for about the past 10 years. He's a pretty sharp fellow, made the observation to me once that there are three types of people at the DoE: 1. Career bureaucrats. 2. Political appointees. 3. People who actually care about getting the kids an education. You can tell #1 pretty easily - they're the guys who play turf war games. The difference between #2 and #3 is a little harder to tell - but not by much, because type #2 comes in, generally with a single issue (vouchers, busting the union, mandated testing, abolishing public education, etc.) and don't really bother to do much actual work, other than pushing the agenda they've been given. That, and they're harder to get rid of than the career bureaucrats. Now, my dad did a fair amount of yelling about the general incompetence of the morons installed by the Clinton admin - a fair mix of #1 and #3, with a smattering of #2 - call it 45/45/10%. I asked him about the mix from the current admin - and he said it's been about 90% #2. People who don't give a shit about how people get an education - they just don't want the government involved in it at all. The "agenda" from On High has pretty much been to on one hand force public schools to reach for higher and higher standards, while cutting their legs off with the other, so that they can be (as much as possible) abolished and replaced with private/privatized/parochial institutions - which, by the way, have no requirements to accept any given student. At least, that's what he's been passing on to me. And no, he didn't vote for Clinton. He didn't vote for Shrub either, but he's that way. DM: "OKay, you round the corner, and entering the alleyway, you see two men standing on eachother's shoulders." silence at the table Player: "F#$% it, we're fighting Cirque de Soleil! Run for your life!" Edited by inthane-chan Nov. 13, 2002, 07:21:58 PM EST Expand All History
Post #62,715 by bepatient 11/13/02 6:20:22 PM Reply	Exactly who are you disgreeing with? Because your premise seems to support the fact that Republicans actually do give a shit about education (based upon your father's observations)...which is my point. The rest I don't seem to see as disagreement with any particular point I've made. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,733 by inthane-chan 11/13/02 7:22:47 PM Reply	Mea culpa. I put a '#3' where there should have been a '#2' - Oops. I've edited the post to reflect that. :P DM: "OKay, you round the corner, and entering the alleyway, you see two men standing on eachother's shoulders." silence at the table Player: "F#$% it, we're fighting Cirque de Soleil! Run for your life!"
Post #62,736 by bepatient 11/13/02 7:32:39 PM Reply	Well... ...at least I see some level of disagreement there now. Though I don't see #1 and #2 as necessarily being exclusionary from the 3rd group. But, as not being party to the conversation...I'll take it as written. You going to extrapolate that population to "all Republicans"? I wouldn't think so...as you seem a shade more rational ( :p backatcha) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,755 by inthane-chan 11/13/02 9:39:05 PM Reply	That's what I get for jumping in the middle of a thread... ...and not spawning a new one. I wasn't actually trying to extrapolate to one party or the other. In fact, I generally consider both to be so full of shit that I'd rather live in an outhouse than either party's quarters - I was just disagreeing that the current administration has actually done much to help the current situation. #1, by definition practically excludes being a part of #3. #1 (career bureaucrats) are literally unconcerned with the work that they're actually supposed to be doing - instead, they are concerned with a) keeping their job, b) doing as little work as possible, and c) maximizing their own political capital, with the aim of d) maximizing their salary. #2, on the other hand, has an allergic reaction to actually doing any REAL work - and instead likes to preach to everybody else that if we just followed "Magic Formula #49" - flavor of the week bullshit, PHB special from Hell. Creates a bunch of make-work for everybody else, and doesn't actually get anything accomplished, including their own agenda. Now, these are extremes - but the bullshit content that my dad has been seeing in the education department has definitely gone up quite a bit - TONS of busywork and do-nothing-go-nowhere-feelgood-studies-holding-up-idea-of-the-week wasting money that could actually be going to schools, instead of being studied to death. In fact, that's the thing that has my father frustrated the most - whenever a study doesn't work out the way that Shrub's cronies want it, they sponsor another study. And another. And another. And another. Until finally, by some fluke, they get some data that they can twist around and make it support their position. Dad's a PhD in Statistics - so he's the guy who gets to do the twisting, whether or not he agrees with it. He's been doing a lot more twisting under the current admin than he was before... DM: "OKay, you round the corner, and entering the alleyway, you see two men standing on eachother's shoulders." silence at the table Player: "F#$% it, we're fighting Cirque de Soleil! Run for your life!"
Post #63,007 by jb4 11/15/02 8:49:36 AM Reply	Oh, it's hardly a fluke... [...]And another. Until finally, by some fluke, they get some data that they can twist around and make it support their position. No fluke. Duh is legion for manufacturing the best data money can buy. jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Post #63,029 by inthane-chan 11/15/02 10:46:26 AM Reply	Hey - I didn't say it was THEIR fluke... :P DM: "OKay, you round the corner, and entering the alleyway, you see two men standing on eachother's shoulders." silence at the table Player: "F#$% it, we're fighting Cirque de Soleil! Run for your life!"
Post #62,703 by Ashton 11/13/02 5:27:43 PM Reply	Pshaw, BeeP "prove" it / you mean like.. Whatever-TF you might actually personally think about a postulated problem.. several plies down in the veneer? C'mon - yer role-playing hat 'round chere is by now solidly that of - Peripatetic Pusillanimous Patsy for The Ruling Junta - since, no matter how egregious the performance of a handful of the 13,000 (with 3% GDP) or the rape of the 20,000,000 [at the Other end of the gravy train] with the SAME 3% slice of that Banana Republic Cream Pie: You'll advocate for the debbil. Useful that, I agree.. since there seem to be few Armani-clad / Corp-ladder climbers hangin out in this here ghet-toe. So it's good for someone to do the dirty work and play along with supporting the insufferable. [BeeP - Hero of the Fray; Don't Kill the Messenger!] But let's not confuse your utility-function with anything like your ever taking anything resembling a Stand? well - a half-Lap then - re the mischief done under the rubric of somebody's idea.. of what 'Republican' might mean in 2002. Still waiting for that Conservation List! BTW - WTF are yer like-minded folk earmarking to 'conserve'.?. eschewing the usual blab-list with Freedom/Truth/Liberty -type pap, that is. Won't AnyOne defend the substance of what these solid citizens want to preserve !? [besides just the very comfy Status-Quo and Freedom from all Regulation of the SOP back-room Dealz, that is]. Ashton Puzzled West of Peoria In a world of 'Conservatives' - where can one find someone who will have the guts to admit to being a Reactionary? cha cha cha
Post #62,705 by bepatient 11/13/02 5:34:37 PM Reply	If you have a point... ...relevant to the current discussion (education) ...make it. Otherwise. (expletive removed) off! We're not talking about what you want to talk about. Too bad. Keep harping on the 13000. Your trying to apply it to 50 million. (oh..sorry...they're all wannabes) Yawn. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,710 by Ashton 11/13/02 6:00:02 PM Reply	Yes, in fact it seems that they Are: wannabes. Thou sayest. Wow - is THAT the rationale for the 'conserving' thing, then ?? If I continue to push in a direction which concentrates the wealth even further.. I Shall Be Rewarded by Winning the Lottery! - I shall be elected to the 13,000. If I Just Have Enough Faith and remain steadfast towards ---> My Me-Me-Me Goal! Thanks for the near-as-we-get to confirmation, then, even if you didn't akshully mention whether you had a party Lotto card too, Comrade. Oh, and - you don't see any relevance to the original prop. re Repub-Dubya's edjaKayshun plan? Your proffered simplistic 'efficiency plan' for the spending of your money: is a familiar lateral arabesque end-run around the proposition that, America's growth (in the pre-Empire days) solidly derived from the actual providing of a truly PUBLIC Education for ALL Citizens\ufffd << And while Economists could dance on the head of that Efficiency pin for another century [and will - it's what they Do]: repealing that "National Attitude" is a far larger change than your pat dismissal implies. Think of such an "attitude change" as being on a similar scale to Another attitude change of late: the fait accompli of the Shrub-Ashcroft Amendments to the US Constitution - in the really Really handy name of Security! Remember.. All Those Times -- when Every Admin buried its nasty manipulations under National Security exemption? Remember Dubya's er 'sealing' of all OTHER Presidents records ? (and much more, but let's not look at All the current soiled laundry). (I just knew you would remember these things - steel trap mind and all) Ashton
Post #62,717 by bepatient 11/13/02 6:22:02 PM Reply	o0o You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,720 by Ashton 11/13/02 6:26:32 PM Reply	Parochial minds everywhere salute thy speechlessness.oO0Oo.
Post #62,721 by bepatient 11/13/02 6:28:07 PM Reply	Hey bud...tried to bring you on subject... maybe my universal translator is broke...cause it doesn't seem like you made it there. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,939 by jb4 11/14/02 7:25:54 PM 11/14/02 7:26:49 PM Reply	I guess I can write better than you can read. OK now, try to follow closely here. There will be a test afterward: From my post, I said (and I blockquote): Duh campaigned on national standard testing, not on improving the educational availability for said Chicago south-side kid. His campaign was to institute national testing, with schools that don't show the "required improvement in test scores" being subject to sanctions, including being shut down. This (not-so-)hidden agenda here was to attempt to reduce the influence of the various teachers' unions that are anathema to Republicans in general, and I assume, you in particular. The quiz begins here: Question 1: "Duh" in the quote above was: ____ A) A perjorative term I have used in the past to refer to George W. Bush. ____ B) A perjorative term I have never used in the past to refer to Bill Patient. If you answered B), go back to Hooked On Phonics 101. Question 2: Who is the owner of "This (not-so-)hidden agenda"? ____ A) The person referred to as "Duh" in the self-same paragraph. ____ B) The person posting the quoted paragraph ____ C) The person to whom the post replied ____ D) Ashton Brown If you answered A) you get another point. If you answered B) or C), again go back to Hooked On Phonics 101. If you answered D), pass me whatever it is you're smokin'. Question 3: What type of school was closed in Chicago? ____ A) Charter schools (An independent public school of choice, given a charter or contract for a specified period of time (typically five years) to educate children according to the school\ufffds own design, with a minimum of bureaucratic oversight.) _____ B) "Magnet" schools _____ C) Poor, dilapidated, South and West side elementary schools for which the heretofore Republican "leadership" in Springfield has abdicated its Constitutionally-mandated responsibility for adequately funding. _____ D) New Trier East High School. If you chose A) or B) you need to check your links a little more closely (or, go back to Hooked On Phonics 101). If you chose D), you need to pay a little more attention to your Northern Illinois geopolitics; New Trier's tax base is in Kenilworth and Winetka, two of the richest suburbs in the country. Hope you passed... jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990 Edited by jb4 Nov. 14, 2002, 07:26:49 PM EST Expand All History
Post #62,967 by bepatient 11/14/02 10:00:59 PM Reply	So "you" doesn't actually mean me when you're talking... ...to me. You included me in this "plot" by including me, by assumption, as a union buster. This (not-so-)hidden agenda here was to attempt to reduce the influence of the various teachers' unions that are anathema to Republicans in general, and I assume, you in particular. Provide links. The School Board in Chicago shows test scores rising. Other links show closures of 3 downtown Chicago charters. Anything else I'll take your word for as closing...but the available evidence shows the policy working...whether you like it or not. Show me something different. Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying the policy is perfect. I am also not saying the the procedure of change is painless. Chicago in particular has a long history of really screwing up the educational system. All I am saying is that the evidence available shows a marked improvement last year to this year. Unless shown otherwise...I have to go with the facts I'm presented. So unless you tell me that those kids from the closed schools weren't placed at all (thus not subjected to measure)...then the closings are apparently working to increase the general level of education. Again...show me differently. Shitcan the Hooked on Phonics crap and prove your case. Offer an alternative that we can discuss. Something other than bitch about the "new" way its being done. The "old" way wasn't working. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,010 by jb4 11/15/02 8:58:11 AM Reply	So, does improved test scores == better education? If you think so, then you discount the concept of "teaching to the test"? (See inthane-chan's discussion about DoE's type #2s [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=62707\|elsewhere in this thread.]) jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Post #63,054 by bepatient 11/15/02 12:00:14 PM Reply	Until you offer a better methodology... ...thats the only measure available. Throw that out...and there is no way to improve anything...because there is no way to measure improvement. And again...opposition to the programs have always railed against testing...but offer no alternative source of data or measure. Plus...if "teaching to the test" gets the kids to remember what the subject, verb and object of a sentence are...and teaches him to quickly subtract 2 from 10. Teach to it. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,065 by jb4 11/15/02 1:27:17 PM Reply	Platitudes, platitudes, platitudes! Plus...if "teaching to the test" gets the kids to remember what the subject, verb and object of a sentence are...and teaches him to quickly subtract 2 from 10. Teach to it. Except it doesn't! And even Duh's own make-a-"study"-to-order dudes have said that. Besides, those tests do not even test such mundanities as subject-verb-object identification, or diagramming, or "subtracting 2 from 10"...you cant diagram a sentence when you have to fill in a dot labelled A through E, and those tests permit calcaulators (so I guess it does teach you how to subtract 2 from 10...at least, it teaches you which buttons to push....) jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Post #63,071 by bepatient 11/15/02 2:06:04 PM Reply	sigh - Alternatives? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,075 by mmoffitt 11/15/02 2:25:16 PM Reply	How about... A Federal Government who doesn't threaten to shut your ass down if you don't have enough kids fill in the right dots? WTF is this? You're always railing against old, stodgy methods of instruction, how many fscking jobs do you think involve filling in little dots, within the timeframe, on a shitty little piece of paper? I'm oversensitive on this. In high school I was told by my mathematics teacher that "some people get mathematics and some people don't. Nothing to be ashamed of, you just don't get it and never will." Why do you suppose he said that? Because I FAILED to commit to memory (or indeed, see the value of committing to memory) trigonometric identities! Why the fsck should I memorize that IF I CAN GENERATE THE IDENTITIES? Which is more important? The memorization of formulas or the ability to generate them? I'd say the latter, but if a student had poor rote memorization skills, but the intellect to generate the formulas, he'd still fail your "fill in the box" tests. Now, did society gain anything? I'd submit they lost something, and something more important. Tests are popular because they don't require thought. All they require is regurgitation and they're easy to understand (Oh, you're and 80, you're a 90, you're a 40) but they don't really tell you anything.
Post #63,082 by bepatient 11/15/02 2:46:04 PM Reply	sigh2 - Alternatives? Until there is a better way to quantify and measure the system...there is no other objective basis to determine if one way is better than another. Without that, there can be no improvement. So while I understand your frustration...it does less than nothing to assist in the improvement of our educational system. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,095 by mmoffitt 11/15/02 4:07:39 PM Reply	? I think we agree that standardized tests are not the answer, but you want to use them anyway? Or do you really think they measure "education" in any meaningful way? I think they're worse (as my anecdote demonstrated). You accuse me of contributing "less than zero", yet I cite an example where standardized tests contribute less than zero and you apparently agree (at least somewhat) but are willing to stick to them anyway? And I off no solutions?
Post #63,112 by wharris2 11/15/02 4:32:55 PM Reply	I didn't read it that way I read that as a statement that standardized testing is better than nothing, and that you haven't yet given any superior alternative other than repeated assertions that it's bad.
Post #63,114 by bepatient 11/15/02 4:38:41 PM Reply	clap You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,113 by bepatient 11/15/02 4:38:00 PM Reply	Not quite. I agree that the current tests may not be ideal. But they are currently the only viable source of objective data available. That...again...is why I ask for alternatives instead of complaining about them. Until an alternative obejective measure can be established...these tests are all we have. And we don't have time to invent something else. Thus, I advocate their use until an alternative is established. Short term we may look at ways to increase the test's applicability. So lets get started on that. Testing is going to have to be a cornerstone...especially in lower grades that are less concentrated on objective thinking and more concentrated on the fundamentals. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,142 by Ashton 11/15/02 6:58:09 PM Reply	But not your implicit presumption throughout: That objective tests make sense in evaluating the entire &%&$ Gaussian of human beings! further implicit - that [some fucking-HOW].. a bunch of NUMBERS can, shall, Should! - actually indicate something 'Real'. Never mind that your presumptions are Popular and oft-regurgitated. I assert that the mindset which imagines that ANY #%& NUMBERS can remotely characterize.. other than a rote-learned list.. is fatally flawed at the root. I OTOH go with A Einstein, things should be made as simple as possibe, but NOT SIMPLER* [emph. add.] I also go with, for a second time in recent days - [link\|http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Gatto.html\| John Gatto], also [link\|http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html\|here]. CPA/Econ NUMBERS have gotten us squarely within simplistic useless ways of dealing with ALL evidently complex topics; no wonder our society is fucked and getting fuckeder - and nowhere more evidently than with THIS TOPIC. You want simple. You want a number-characterization of Success. I want [at very least] - a wide-range of 'methods' via an equally wide-range of teacher talents: to produce results measured by ESSAY performance and not NUMBERS. Harder to multiply-'grade'? - You Bet. Worth it? I BET. Ashton Neva hoppen though; we're hooked on EZ, not honest. And damn well not on - 'intelligent'.
Post #63,223 by mmoffitt 11/16/02 11:52:14 AM Reply	Xactly. Well said.
Post #63,247 by bepatient 11/16/02 1:52:16 PM Reply	It might very well have been. But it won't >solve< anything. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,261 by mmoffitt 11/16/02 4:40:00 PM Reply	Notwithstanding this thread's length, we started it off wrong. You and I will likely NEVER agree on how to "fix" education for a very simple reason. You and I have irreconcilable differences on what the product of an American education should be. Neither of us has discussed this, and I've yet to see a serious discussion of it anywhere. We can't know how to "correct course" until we know where we want to go. We can't know where we want to go until we agree on a destination. I suspect that the reason that "there are no easy answers" is because "there is no agreement" on what we seek of our public educational system. We will remain at odds about the fixes because we are trying to accomplish entirely different things.
Post #63,327 by bepatient 11/16/02 9:33:28 PM Reply	I doubt that very much. At least on the fundamentals I'd think we'd agree that having a vast majority of the population able to read and do basic mathmatics is a start. In alot of places we fail at even this simple task. What else are you trying to accomplish? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,357 by Ashton 11/17/02 12:36:22 AM Reply	How about a civilized population, while we're at it ?? That which requires a bit more than how to address the envelope to pay the MIN on one of yer un maxed-out CCs after a hard day flippin burgers; and enough historical lore to have some idea what the word civil-ization might connote (also what connote means). Settle for less you say? Hey - we already Have. Like it? Should we save a few more bucks for Defense, say? Or maybe just Offense can do - if we're Quick.. and vicious enough, next. Pshaw Beep
Post #63,425 by bepatient 11/17/02 2:53:52 PM Reply	Priceless Continue along on your (nearly) incomprehensible diatribes...all of the time telling us the evils of the world as we know it. Railing on me and anyone who you disagree with in, oh-so lofty terms... Care to suggest a course or 2 in "civil-ization" that we can drop into a 3rd graders backpack? Make sure its a >really thin< book...because we have weight restrictions on learning now too...so we can make sure we're being really >nice< to everybody. I got it. Lets everyone throw away all trappings of everything...grow our hair...go back to barter and live in nice communal settings. Oh...wait...Johnny can't read or write...let alone apply a trade to make something of value in a barter society...Johnny doesn't understand basic unit of measure...hmmm...but I guess, in the interest of making nice, that requiring Johnny to (gasp) memorize some basic facts before we unleash him to the world is an uncivilized method of teaching. At least mmoffitt and jb4 made an attempt at offering solutions. You, on the other hand...seem to just want to drop in to tell me to feel sorry for myself for living >in the real world< (whether or not you like it here is beside the point) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,488 by Ashton 11/17/02 9:19:23 PM Reply	We have no? little disagreement re Basics (far as I can guesstimate from your occasional actually stated personal opinions) We might argue about what Must be on that list, what Should be on that list. And you may be right that - only the basic survival skills might have be on the emergency list, for many years. I will still argue that we had better not stop with that crude-survival assortment, a month longer than necessary. I do not deem it a trivial exercise to design.. these promised tests. And however clever might the tests become (??): that is still only Phase 0. We shall measure the damage. Maybe.. I have linked to a person I believe capable of answering more questions than you can ask; I suspect that he has some (small number) company - as to Phases 1 through ..42? None of this topic could possibly be significantly altered in the reign of one Resident: it is that which I see as a huge hurdle; we Love the quarterly returns and.. Chortle at the cancelling-out of the previous Republicrat trends with the New Republicrat's ascension. If this pattern continues re Polit-football Edjakayshun - How much more fucked can we get? I'd rather not find out. And I don't have any young kids to watch floundering (or I'd have been outta here much earlier). Civility: is more important than math or history - you can't even begin to learn those, in a zoo. Much of That inculcation begins at 'home' - so as the bottom 20% lose ground every year: what do You think leads to a siege mentality in their little cheeldrun; street-wise from daily necessity? Gets back to wealth distribution every time, even for those with the iron gates - up on the hill. Don't it? Ashton
Post #63,290 by Ashton 11/16/02 7:08:27 PM Reply	No, 'saying it' won't. But I submit that if.. more voices are not raised, speaking in intentionally polit-buzzword-free syntax - about what is wrong in our basic lazy ideas about 'assessing people': then no amount of money thrown at the package (that popular shibboleth) will make a slightest dent overall. Can a 'modern' nation actually reconfigure its entire attitude and approach to something as massive in implications as this topic - a Problem with the momentum of the Titanic on a slalom course? Have we enough of the ilk of John Gatto - and will anyone Listen to them? Finally? All I can see clearly-enough to bet on is: if the usual Left/Right, One-Party slogans are allowed to prevail in this area as everywhere else - it is moot. We shall continue our decline in overall 'citizen competence' as "things [we never pay to maintain] fall apart". See.. for all the talk about "the cheeldrun" - we behave as if we don't really think THEY are as 'cost-effective' an investment as say - armaments and gasoline subsidies: THOSE are where we will SPEND BIG $$, kill / be killed, and where our largest Attention really is, especially with today's 'excuse' to further ignore The USA At Home. [oil] is Elsewhere, we see. We could.. look at the budgets, methods of advanced countries - but natch, we see ourselves as #1: no need. Ditto re 'medicine'. Hmmm - a pattern? Ashton
Post #63,321 by wharris2 11/16/02 9:11:10 PM Reply	What do you prefer? Do you prefer passing someone through high school until (still unable to read) he gets to college and even thinks he can get to college, but can't comprehend an English 101 class? Testing won't solve how to teach this person how to read, but it will sure show that he can't read at a point where maybe he can be taught. I expect that, at the end of first grade, all first graders will be able to read (maybe not comprehend what they're reading, but still be able to read) and do simple addition and subtraction. Standardized testing won't find that out (geez, try giving a first grader a standardized test.) An exercise of reading out loud from a simple book (no, not the Run Spot Run books, which I fortunately never had), but something maybe out of Dr. Seuss. Of course that is never going to be able to be standardized, and really it's at first grade we need to catch any problems in teaching methods and learning problems. But as he says, what is your suggestion for an alternative to standard testing?
Post #63,358 by Ashton 11/17/02 12:57:54 AM Reply	Re: What do you prefer? For the edjaKayshun Resident to top his agenda with 'Testing' and have no remotely incisive idea of ~ the shambles of the system which has brought us 'measurably increasing' dumbth, is par for the course. The course of mere political slogan trading with no brains or actual concern behind the slogans. Yes of course some means must measure how far we have fallen - so what? It's Nothing compared with the will to seriously proceed; to place Home USA infrastructure repair over a likely series of wars against folks we think Might.. not like us and might.. commit suicide to act on the dislike. I've already linked to at least One person who could walk even a Dubya and the Oil-guys through: what needs to be done + (I cannot doubt) a number of feasible approaches to making the transition. It can't be done in even a few years: many years == well beyond any One Resident's political mini-plan du jour. Gatto's time would be wasted - talking to a smoke blower. And That is all we're willing to put in power: BS artists who give a shit only about the Power and personal wealth gleaned from leveraging it. Nationally - we'd pay Trillions in a wink of a Contractor's eye - for a mere illusion of 'security' against the enemies we add-to daily - but not a fraction of that time/money to seriously seek to recreate a working and excellent edu system. Won't happen. We're gonna do wars for a long time, next. We'll need the money == perfect excuse to Wait. As before and before that. Never mind. Ashton
Post #63,111 by wharris2 11/15/02 4:30:29 PM Reply	As an aside, what's with diagramming anyway? I had exactly one English class in grade school where we diagrammed anything. I doubt that I'd be able to diagram my way out of a wet paper bag nowdays. If you know what verbs, nouns, adverbs, and so forth are, how does diagramming a sentence help? By the time you can diagram a sentence, you already know the stuff. (Don't you?)
Post #63,557 by jb4 11/18/02 10:09:32 AM Reply	Re: As an aside, what's with diagramming anyway? Well, let me take a stab at this (because I'm not really sure I disagree with your premise...). IF you indeed know the parts of speech, and how (and where) to use them in a sentence, diagramming is likely of little use...except as an exercise. However, I would maintain that the exercise does have merit, if for no other reason than it gives the Nintendo generation a chance to think in the abstract; to use meta-English (if there is such a thing) to describe English. Also, by requiring mastery (or, at least, cognisance [sic]) of a new and different abstract "language" and notational form for representing something, it will exercise a part of the brain that would otherwise remain dormant for a Nintendoers entire life (unless, of course, said Nintendoer were to accidentally be exposed to music notation). Yes, I also could not diagram my way out of a wet paper bag myself these days, and I really hope I don't have to anytime soon. But I do feel that I am better for having done (survived?) the exercise, and would argue that it should be a part of a well-rounded person's education. jb4 "They lead. They don't manage. The carrot always wins over the stick. Ask your horse. You can lead your horse to water, but you can't manage him to drink." Richard Kerr, United Technologies Corporation, 1990
Post #63,562 by deSitter 11/18/02 10:22:06 AM Reply	Re: As an aside, what's with diagramming anyway? Not really - there are unintuitive structures (gerunds for example) that are better grasped after diagramming. I found diagramming to be extremely interesting. It's the best preparation for learning a new language. -drl
Post #63,565 by bepatient 11/18/02 10:38:31 AM Reply	Yahoo! Give that man a cigar! It's the best preparation for learning a new language. Especially languages that don't follow similar structural patterns to our own. Mapping is just an visual exersize ... kids learn better with visuals. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #63,569 by deSitter 11/18/02 10:54:16 AM 11/18/02 10:54:57 AM Reply	Re: Yahoo! I am going to the store. I am going to be an astronaut. I am going crazy. All have different diagrams. -drl Edited by deSitter Nov. 18, 2002, 10:54:57 AM EST Expand All History
Post #62,742 by mmoffitt 11/13/02 8:18:48 PM Reply	VERY Nicely done. Thank you.
Post #62,745 by mmoffitt 11/13/02 8:42:34 PM Reply	Apologies. But here is our fork. I agree wholeheartedly that in America, "there is one party with two right wings." I believe that is why the Democrats lost races they should have won this year (imo, this was an application of Truman's Law: "Run a Republican against a Republican and a Republican will win every time."). The overwhelming majority of the US population recognizes that they have no one running who could possibly represent their interests. How else to explain < 20% voter turn-out? However, I do believe there is a difference between the two parties, however slight. And this is where I believe you and I diverge. While I believe that these modest differences are still non-trivial (but have become less clear and less important over the past 30 years) my sense is that you can find no differences. All that notwithstanding, Education is one area where you can still find some sense of sanity among Democrats. I'd argue that even IF Beep's mythical "compassionate conservative concerned about education" existed, he'd be the one promoting school vouchers (to further re-distribute wealth upwards), public funding of parochial schools (to placate the Right's Christian Loonies), standardized testing (to close down schools in inner cities and as jb notes, to bust unions), insert "Channel One" into all schools to make sure enough corporate advertisements are viewed daily by kids and that the curriculum consist not of teaching kids to think, but teaching them to consume! That, from the Right, would pass for "caring about education". I'd also argue that you'd be far less likely to see a Democrat with such views, but I'll admit you'd find some. Republican Party supporters are an odd bunch. They fall into one (or more) of these categories: 1) The Ruling Ultra-Rich Elite. 2) Gun nuts. 3) Whacko Christian Fundamentalists. 4) Xenophobes. 5) Homophobes. 6) Love It or Leave It fans who couldn't spell Constitution if their lives depended upon it. 7) The wannabe ultra-rich. Because this is their base, they have to establish policies that appeal to this band of loonies, most often defering to group 1. That, my friend, makes them worse by definition. They are "proud" of the positions they take to please their base. It is utterly disgusting. The Democrats, OTOH, have just lost their minds. They've come to believe that they have to be "more Republican" to stay in office. What I would have hoped they learned this year, but have apparently become too mentally ill to appreciate, is that they lost BECAUSE they became too much like Republicans. bcnu, Mikem
Post #62,746 by mmoffitt 11/13/02 8:46:26 PM Reply	ROFLMAO! I wrote the above before reading BP's last!
Post #62,760 by bepatient 11/13/02 10:23:51 PM Reply	All of that...an rofl... ...and not one suggestion on what actions should be taken. Typical. Everyone else is wrong. You can't be because you take no position. >THAT< is why the Dems had their asses handed to them. Not because they became more like Republicans...but because they came to the party with NOTHING...just like you...so far...have done here. Tell me...if you buy a PC from a reputable source...get it home...and it does not boot...should you not expect a refund? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,836 by mmoffitt 11/14/02 11:20:38 AM Reply	Hmmmm. As Ashton points out below, we are really all to fscked up for any real solutions. However, the one proposed by the late Stephen Gould would be a good start. I'll quote him as best I can, "You want excellence in education? Triple the salaries across the board. Excellence will follow."
Post #62,842 by Simon_Jester 11/14/02 11:31:26 AM Reply	Allow me to disagree. I don't believe that the core problem is that our educators are woefully underpaid (they are, but that not the core problem). The core problem is that schools are not used to teach anymore but rather to warehouse students. Adding more money to educator's salaries will not fix this problem.
Post #62,850 by mmoffitt 11/14/02 11:57:13 AM Reply	True, the real culprit is US. Too many Muricans are ig-nert, hence place no value on academics. Gould's point was well made, however. Imo, embarrassingly low teacher pay says a lot about what most Muricans think of education. If we were serious about academics in the country, tripling the salaries would be necessary. With a BS fetching you 15-20K/year in education you get the following breakdown of teachers: 1) 2-3% knowledgeable in their fields and absolutely committed to education. 2) 97-98% who can't do anything else. Changing that would require salaries to come into line with what non-educational slots pay. And that would be approximately triple.
Post #62,851 by bepatient 11/14/02 12:11:21 PM Reply	Figures. Throw money at it. Since all the people in the inner city are too stupid to understand the importance of school (triple f**ingbog...how absulutely >democratic< of you to notice this with such an air of superiority)...we'll just give the teachers more money. Don't reform their compensation. Don't worry about their qualifications. Just give them more money and they'll teach better. And NEVER give any of those ignorant parents a choice. Yep. That'll work. wow. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson}* [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,865 by Silverlock 11/14/02 1:44:20 PM Reply	You think the current salary is just right? You saying that teachers aren't woefully underpaid? Of course, raising the pay won't magically solve all the problems with education. But it is a good first step.
Post #62,873 by bepatient 11/14/02 2:02:45 PM Reply	Don't even try that. Its not even remotely what I said. And I disagree with blind increases in pay being a good first step unless its tied to performance. In order for me to agree to it being a good first step...you must tell me that I will be giving >good< teachers a raise and at the same time I will be replacing bad teachers. How can you do this until the teachers (or at least their leadership) agrees to have their performance measured or at a minimum...their qualifications verified? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,882 by Silverlock 11/14/02 2:41:36 PM Reply	Nothing "blind" about it The current pay of teachers is an atrocity. BTW {this is me "telling" you} We will be giving good teachers a raise and getting rid of bad teachers (eventually, everybody retires sometime). Do you agree now? As I thought I made clear before, I agree that there are plenty of problems with the education establisment. Accountability and performance measurement are a couple. Let's get them to a more equitable salary first and then worry about merit increases and cleaning out the dead wood. If we have to wait until you are satisfied that all bad teachers are now unemployed, I doubt we will ever see teacher's pay rising to a level matching the importance of the job.
Post #62,890 by bepatient 11/14/02 3:06:45 PM Reply	See under boxley. [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=62883\|Post #62883] You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,858 by screamer 11/14/02 1:05:33 PM Reply	May I add one... in my best Alvin Toffler penmanship... The core problem, IMNHO, with the American school system is the curriculum. It is still geared to churning out good second wave factory workers. Increasing school hours or teacher's pay only equates to more hours or more quality hours of bad curriculum. The second wave economy died just before I graduated from highschool ('80). The problem with the educational institutions (elementary to higher) is that curricula and pedogogy have not evolved either through stubborness or tradition. It's hard enough to keep a post puberty teenager's attention span for more than 10 second bursts even through the medium that they understand, video (read - reading and writing are no longer the most efficient ways to convey information - a picture paints a thousand words, a motion picture ???) If teachers continue to stand in front of a classroom and "profess" to them (another practice that was necessitated by technology - pre printing press - where the monk stood in front of the class with the only existing book and read aloud so students could make their own copies) - their odds are almost nil of making any meaningful connection. Tradition is not necessarily a good thing :-) The reason I'm against vouchers and the NEA is that quality public education is the cornerstone of a democracy (an enlightened electorate...) It's self explanatory why I would be against vouchers. But the NEA has rarely done anything to address the core problem (the curricula and teaching methodologies) even after all the money that was thrown at them in the '70's, '80's and '90's in the form of property tax increases and state and federal funding increases. Is it a surprise that even liberals think the NEA is nothing more than a typical union that sucks it's funding from the idealistic teachers and turns around and builds up the big self serving bureacracy (with all the Animal Farm trappings - some animals are created more equal than others) that needs to be slapped back down to earth and maybe once and a while listen to the poor bastards that they "represent"? This issue falls into the "complex" category and definately not a binary repo/demo good/bad candidate... Maybe that's the reason for such a long thread? Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #62,869 by bepatient 11/14/02 1:56:24 PM Reply	Ever the optimist still...eh DR? Maybe that's the reason for such a long thread? still chuckling I have to agree that in an ideal environment, vouchers aren't a great idea and shouldn't be necessary at all. However, as you pointed out, the problem is >not< simple and this is NOT an ideal environment. So what are the parents in downtown (name city here) supposed to do in the interim? Long term solutions don't help...and many times (Philly is like this)...the kids walk by a parochial school to get to their public school. So they walk by a school that offers better quality (in many cases) to get to the substandard (the majority) school >their< tax dollars are providing. Why should that per student expense >not< be spent >wherever< that child can get a better education? Can anyone answer this? *note 1* How can anyone justify penalizing the child because the government has failed in one of its primary missions? How can anyone justify telling the parent that their child will suffer because a bunch of beaurocrats have been consistently failing to do their job for the past 30 years? The waiting list for charters in this area is immense. The inner city communities (the D constituents) WANT choice. Their party is denying them that choice. Some..apparently...think they are too stupid to exersize that choice wisely. In many cases, the teachers in the parochial schools are making >less< than their PS equivalents...yet they consistently provide higher quality education (as measured as best we can objectively)..so how can one justify just giving blind raises to teachers...when at least some evidence points out that it doesn't necessarily work? *note 1* the blind answer is "Separation of Church and State"...that government money cannot go to religious institutions. Keep in mind...however...that a voucher is being offered as a >refund< because the government failed to deliver on its charter of providing a suitable education. If the government did its job...there would be no need to vouchers. So..in essence...this is not government money...it is the parents money to do with as they see fit. So please do steer clear of this idiocy as a reason to oppose vouchers. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,893 by screamer 11/14/02 3:14:51 PM Reply	I basically agree, but would make one distinction... That distinction being that the voucher program, unlike a parochial school under the current system, takes funds away (re-allocates) from the public general fund and could harm general public education if we resort to some hybrid system. Parents that can most afford to "pay a premium" for their child's education enroll them in parochial schools, much the same way that Ivy Leagues operate. There are a certain number of scholarships, etc... but by and large, it is a "separate but equal" solution. But I really don't wish to go there... Where I want to go is... My fear is... Let's suppose that we moved to a true voucher system. I can't see how this will be any better than what currently exists. There will only be so many openings in the "good" schools (roughly the equivalent to the charter schools in large public systems) and there will be limited openings in the "new private/parochial" schools which will most probably take the voucher equivalent as a base tuition and then add a "premium" to that to keep out the riffraff (the poor inner city kids) and all of a sudden we have the parents of those kids sending their kids to voucher subsidized crappy inner city schools... I know I am assuming a lot of negative events which may or may not come to pass, but the previous scenerio is possible (and in my opinion, probable). Two things stand out in my fear, one is that the only people that will benefit from the afformentioned probable scenario are the parents who currently are sending their kids to private schools (wealthy and or middle class) and the people least likely to benefit are the poor. Two other things to keep in mind, first, that I didn't vote - but I agree with Bush's educational plan as a bandaid (not that I trust that he personally cares, per se, but I trust his wife does) for at least some accountability in the current system. Second, what I was stating above all else in my last response (probably poorly - I'm a public school grad :-0 ) is that I believe that no matter what structural form the schools take, we need to take a much harder look at the curricula. Throughout the history of American education there has been a vocational vrs liberal arts pendulum that takes about 20 years to swing each way... The end of the industrial age and now, in this transitional period, requires us, as a society, to re-evaluate what is a minimun "requirement" for a productive citizen in a democratic society... In other words, I'm affraid that no matter which system - modified current or voucher - unless we address the curriculum problem, we may still not get the results we want. Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #62,901 by bepatient 11/14/02 3:39:35 PM Reply	Damned earthquakes... ...they always happen when you agree with me ;-) Full agreement re: curriculum. It needs to be changed. There are also several well funded groups researching the application of technology to the teaching process...in order to bring the methods current for our Nintendo-ized children. Re: vouchers. I honestly wish they weren't necessary. There needs to be some type of qualification system in order to keep the effect of vouchers "progressive" re: income levels. After all...the point is to improve the low end...and the suburbs around here arent't the problem (in general) In Philly, though, there are alot of available slots in parochials...many are struggling to stay open...so vouchers here (strongly opposed) would assist in keeping class sizes down in publics while keeping parochials open...yes funding would transfer over...to which >other fixes< would need to be applied...one is the sheer amount of waste involved in the administration process. The current "privitization" happening in Philly at the behest of the state is not the answer (surprise Ashton...I >don't< like it nor do I support it). You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,894 by Another Scott 11/14/02 3:15:17 PM Reply	Another reason - slippery slope. BP writes: Long term solutions don't help...and many times (Philly is like this)...the kids walk by a parochial school to get to their public school. So they walk by a school that offers better quality (in many cases) to get to the substandard (the majority) school >their< tax dollars are providing. Why should that per student expense >not< be spent >wherever< that child can get a better education? Can anyone answer this? *note 1* How can anyone justify penalizing the child because the government has failed in one of its primary missions? How can anyone justify telling the parent that their child will suffer because a bunch of beaurocrats have been consistently failing to do their job for the past 30 years? ... *note 1* the blind answer is "Separation of Church and State"...that government money cannot go to religious institutions. Keep in mind...however...that a voucher is being offered as a >refund< because the government failed to deliver on its charter of providing a suitable education. If the government did its job...there would be no need to vouchers. So..in essence...this is not government money...it is the parents money to do with as they see fit. (Emphasis added.) Separation is a good argument. But a better argument is - if people can get tax money back to send their kids to a different school to get them out of failing schools, why can't people get tax money sent to the Pentagon back if they're pacificists? What about areas where property taxes support the schools and vouchers are given to people who don't pay property taxes (e.g. a woman who has small children but they live with other family members)? It wouldn't be 'their money' to get back in that case. Should they still get a voucher? I'd say yes, but based on the argument put forward, she shouldn't since she's not paying taxes to the public schools. It's a slippery slope, IMO. The Supreme Court ruled long ago that people can't get out of paying taxes because they disagree with some government policy. I think a similar argument can be made that the court shouldn't accept the argument that people should get 'their share' of tax money back to enable them to attend other schools. The argument doesn't make sense to me. If voucher supporters want to make a better case (and I do see merit in some aspects of it, but the devil's in the details), it seems to me that they should argue that it's a public good to enable students to get a decent education. If there's something about the school system that's broken, then the school board, city council, etc., should work on fixing it by fixing the system. If they've tried and failed, then maybe credits of some sort should be tried to increase competition. But the credits shouldn't be sold as a tax fairness issue, but rather as an educational policy issue. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #62,903 by bepatient 11/14/02 3:46:43 PM Reply	However you categorize it.... ...the money is paid by people to provide a "public good" as you term it. If government (we the people) can't provide...then the best application of our money would be to remove it from the inneficient and move it to the efficient. (I know...how very "econ" of me to say it this way). The separation argument is bogus. Recognize it as such. It is not a state sponsorship of religion to provide an education to a child...especially after the state has proven itself incapable. On the slippery...if your a >dead< pacifist at the hands of a state enemy...yep...sure...get your money back. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,898 by Simon_Jester 11/14/02 3:31:45 PM Reply	Hardly the only reason against vouchers. Mind you, I disagreed with raising education salaries. So they walk by a school that offers better quality (in many cases) to get to the substandard (the majority) school >their< tax dollars are providing. Why should that per student expense >not< be spent >wherever< that child can get a better education? Can anyone answer this? *note 1* How can anyone justify penalizing the child because the government has failed in one of its primary missions? How can anyone justify telling the parent that their child will suffer because a bunch of beaurocrats have been consistently failing to do their job for the past 30 years? Religious funding is, imo, one of the least likely reasons to fight vouchers. Frankly I have no problems with allowing children and tax-dollars to go to a different school provided that said school abides by the same rules and regulations at the public school. Namely: Do they have to accept any and all children that come to them? Do they have the ability to expel students? Are them limited by the same regulations as public schools in regard to disciplinary actions? If not, comparisons to the quality of private schools and public school are comparisons of apples to oranges. Furthermore, the logical ramifications of vouchers over time reduces education to the elite (either in pay or intellect). Not to mention that while all kids have a right to an education, the cost to educate can vary considerably - particularly with handicapped kids. (Braille schoolbooks and all.) Mostly vouchers are a knee-jerk reaction to attempting to solve the division of warehousing students vs. educating students. Most schools are already divided into (at least) 2 sections, those who are looking for an education vs those being warehoused. The obvious solution would be to allow schools to expel and get rid of the warehoused students. (I don't expect to see it happen however.)
Post #62,906 by screamer 11/14/02 4:25:18 PM Reply	A minor nit... Your post included the phrase: The obvious solution would be to allow schools to expel and get rid of the warehoused students. (I don't expect to see it happen however.) I don't want to see it happen either. These same "students" become citizens and neighbors at one time or another with rights, votes, automobiles, et al. I think that we (as a society) should expend as much effort as possible to attempt to educate them. If we don't, we end up paying for them in prison/jail, rehab, welfare, et al. I haven't seen a decent cost/benefit analysis, but I would intuitively believe that it is cheaper to try to keep them in the system than have to deal with them after they've been expelled. My $.02. Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #62,909 by Simon_Jester 11/14/02 4:46:36 PM Reply	No argument in fact, in addition to the cost of having to deal with them after they haven't gotten an education, there's the upfront cost of having to deal with potentially thousands of students suddenly on the streets. (Street crime, and other problems will skyrocket.)
Post #62,908 by Silverlock 11/14/02 4:41:39 PM Reply	Re: same rules and regs I would include title 9 in that list.
Post #62,979 by Ashton 11/14/02 11:29:15 PM Reply	I stand corrected: we Can still create an informative thread on a near-impossible topic. And the teacher lecturing from file cards image.. returns to haunt. Though.. it's less easy to dis the blackboard; as in math - the participation of several students 'working out' a problem: ez to spot who doesn't yet quite get "cross multiplying" and such. That's not the same as pontificating - and every teacher ought to perceive the huge difference (?) I couldn't possibly disagree re the need for a change in curriculum - yet that idea evokes the need for attitude change, that which demands as-much, an 'inner reeducation' of a huge proportion of all teachers extant [never mind the ext. means imagineered next, to facilitate this huge change]. I also don't quite see ... WHAT the New Curriculum shall be directing towards. That is, given capitalism as the religion and 'success' as the goal: HOW is a teacher to inculcate ethical principles.. yet complete this task via examples of actual performance in those millions of offices? Is it OK (and should it remain OK?) to teach that ~ endless consumption of goods - is a worthy aim for a life? How about then: endless growth (the aim of Every entrepreneur) as an equally desirable -and tenable- long-term aim? And WHAT - amidst our existing mythos - is then.. the Good Life? (on several scales of meaning, of course). And yes.. every 'lesson' is always something.. about 'philosophy' too. And whatever samples are provided from current life - should a teacher deal with the observed power relationship of Corporate agglomerations? Demonstrate how multiple votes by citizens may be / are perverted in their aim.. by the $-Power of these monopolies? (or wannabe-monopolies - surely most of the rest.. or is that debatable as an entrepreneur's innate goal?) Yes too, most every lesson is apt to have a civics content too. Is truth-telling about the current daily problems - ever going to be allowed by the supporting populace (I mean really - not the usual sanctimonious lip-service: since no one would ever admit, "no.. keep lying to the little beggars".) Discuss the avarice involved in "Managed Care"? Dissect the cacophony of political blab-speak? ie Could Stuart Chase's, "The Tyranny of Words" be taught in any public school today? (Or only in advanced er 'semantics' classes for the academic-tracked -- and much later) {sigh} These are among the problems I see as roadblocks to any honest assessment of curricula: I'd assert that there are many forces quite solidly against speaking too truthfully about 'where we are' and 'where best we might want to go next'. In many cases IMhO - our National Habits are counterproductive to our society enduring: Who Can Say THAT.. in class? (of suitable age group & development to handle the topic, that is) I believe it is this conundrum which has successfully thwarted the more obv effective parts of previous brillant plans for reform - I also haven't seen a better synopsis of where we 'are' and where we might (have gone - with Guts) than Ben T's find of [link\|http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html\| John Taylor Gatto.] Ashton Thanks again Ben! That one was a precious Gem from the left-eye of some heathen idol
Post #62,761 by bepatient 11/13/02 10:30:58 PM Reply	One other question. How would school vouchers redistribute wealth upwards? I really want to hear this..considering the first proposal for vouchers in the 70s was proposed by Christopher Jencks (a liberal) to do exactly the opposite. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,772 by boxley 11/14/02 12:11:11 AM Reply	I dont know about upwards but it sure does sideways around here. A local school is missing 96k the founder has 26 convictions for fraud and forgery. [link\|http://www.stpetersburgtimes.com/2002/11/13/Opinion/Tossing_McKay_dollars.shtml\|http://www.stpetersb...Kay_dollars.shtml] now I will agree wih you that oversite is needed. The biggest problem with public schools is mainstreaming and sweathogs. I think we need to aknowledge that kids who have no incentive or interest to learn and only wish to cause interuptions to the kids that do want to learn need separate facilities. Iam not speaking so much for special ed as those kids for whatever reason makes the teacher spend 90% of her time dealing with them and 10% dealing with teaching the other kids. A free public education is guarrantied in many state constitions. I think there is room for separate but equal based on behavioral conditions. If there is a legit medicl reason you are mainstreamed. If you are a ADD wanna be gangbanger piece of shit sweathog class. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Fifty-one percent of a nation can establish a totalitarian regime, suppress minorities and still remain democratic." Correction: All that can be achieved with 51 percent of the voters!" Ilanna Mercer
Post #62,777 by bepatient 11/14/02 1:16:55 AM Reply	damned radical those kids deserve to be in mandated small class sizes with smart kids. How politically incorrect of you to suggest otherwise. Hell..all you have to do is socially promote them (so as to not make them feel bad about themselves for gasp failing)...they'll gragerate. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,765 by a6l6e6x 11/13/02 11:32:10 PM Reply	Proof! [image\|http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tt/2002/tt021107.gif\|\|\|440\|500] Alex "I have a truly marvelous demonstration of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain. -- Pierre de Fermat (1601-1665)
Post #62,776 by bepatient 11/14/02 1:13:41 AM Reply	rofl You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #62,790 by Ashton 11/14/02 5:56:09 AM Reply	Re: But here is our fork - make that skewer. Here's mine- Hey Mike! (in The Village) Even though we're just whistling past the cemetery here.. and I heard more sounds from Dubya today. No next mumbled threat.. is ever an improvement :( Anyway, I think you've listed the more identifiable sub-strains pretty well, as far as that mode will take us. I propose a few more, just for comic relief from today's {fucked} experience of garbled Language - 8) Those fond of simplistic slogans - as expressed definitively: For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong. H. L. Mencken, Mencken's Metalaw (contrib. by Silverlock) 9) The misanthropes of various strains, though this might be a shared category with Authoritarians: take the work out of "managing human commodities" - put em on a spreadsheet and refactor. Social Darwinism pretty much overlays all these groups (the topologists might diagram it in colors?): I've Got Mine; Fuck You (All), Jack. But then - that pretty much goes along with John Dewey pragmatism + Medieval interpretations of something imagined to be pure capitalism. Expect people to behave like assholes; treat them accordingly -in advance- and sure enough.. instant Karma. (Removing outliers from both groups, so-called Repubs and so-called Demos) I believe that the 'Democrats' still at least purport.. attempt to actually address the human qualities of life - a major distinction IMhO. Repubs may or may not provide an angle about the er "collateral damage" to That - as these mainly pursue.. the spreadsheet, numerical version of all life. Whatever colorful allusions we might endlessly create: methinks we're fucked. And I believe I know ~ why.. (there are n- 'hows'). We're 'fucked' because our means for communication, then debate and finally part-consensus + part sour grapes, as interim solution: cannot function any longer. The meanness, venal ignorance of the age? the 24/7 barrage of violent Tee Vee, games, radio plots, comics! novels, repartee, bizness tactics - these all; plus the unremitting LYING.. These are the symptoms of something not neatly categorized. Maybe unprecedented? [Is it really any wonder that there could not appear.. some cohesive 'program' for the Demos, of late?] given I think that the cause/result are now hopelessly blended into: the murder of language - in the exact Confucian sense of that. The people ARE now "standing about in helpless confusion" and "justice HAS gone astray". All are now trading trite homilies, spewing maudlin religiosity along with the epithets - because Marketing has Succeeded now fully! - in debasing the meanings of all important words. And if this is even just ~ correct: no one knows how to extricate such a mass of incommunicado, dangerous (nuclear-armed) homo-saps from a march towards chaos, next. (Hell, the Xians are strung-out already! .. [brown heroin would be a mild high, compared] wistfully dusting off prayer books and prepping for Tribulations, Rapturin-Out, gettin good seats to watch the unSaved get barbecued.. Hee Hee!) No Interest there.. whatsoever! in helping to recreate a liveable planet via certain shared efforts and concerns, breaking bad habits of wasteful shit like 12 MPG trucks? cooperating with {ugh} Others (!) yada yada. Nope: kill the heretics, economically or militarily - we ain't got time for subtlety. Now mirrored by the Other Spreads of religious Corps. (Surprise. Stimulus/Response - whazzat??) No one has a clue - how to get out of this much of a mess. Maybe only some rilly Big SHOCK could do it; but it had better be extra-terrestrial then.. We'd rather nuke than compromise, and the US is as full of Itself as a h\ufffdmophilic tick on a 3-day bloated elephant. Next 'election' ? [Hah..] even IF.. then, So What? What WORDS shall we hear next? Ashton who, fortunately - doesn't take Anything 'homo-sap', seriously enough to lose sleep over :-\ufffd I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. There's a knob called 'brightness', but it doesn't work. Gallagher
Post #62,853 by screamer 11/14/02 12:20:15 PM Reply	Here's one.... [link\|http://www.aiol.com/crownkick/archives/sept-18-00.html\|http://www.aiol.com/...s/sept-18-00.html] :-) Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever

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