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New Re: Stopping the browser throbber
I don't believe it's possible to get around the throbber problem. I'm working on a project that does something very similar (it may be exact...but I can't give you too many details...sorry).

We decided to use an applet. One of the reasons for this is the possibility of the connection being dropped (for example, if the user *does* push stop). We haven't really seen too many problems on the client side (though we don't send data back to the server after the initial GET). The other problem is that the UI that displays the data is somewhat complex and easier to render in java than in HTML.

I'm the one building the backend. It would certainly work with javascript/DOM (and the multiple frame idea). In fact, we're looking into that, as we may have multiple "applications" on the same web page that need to be updated, and don't want each one to have its own connection.

The issue we're running into is the backend...from a network perspective. You say you're handling several thousand clients? How many servers? What's the server/client ratio? Of course, I don't expect you to answer those, as I expect you can talk about your project about as much as I can about mine (our companies may even be competing...I don't know).

Another possibility: I don't understand the requirement that the user *sit* at a web page, watching data be updated. To me...that's not the web. That's a client/server app. So, I suggested they use Java Web Start. It's not much different from an applet, but there are some things that it adds that make it more interesting to do it that way. Not sure if that's a possibility for you.

Dan
New Re: Stopping the browser throbber
I'm the one building the backend. It would certainly work with javascript/DOM (and the multiple frame idea). In fact, we're looking into that, as we may have multiple "applications" on the same web page that need to be updated, and don't want each one to have its own connection.

The page will continue to eat memory if you use this method. We opted against it.

You can service a number of frames/applications with one applet fairly easily. Basically, you put some javascript in the top frame that 'reads' the page looking for tags with particular realtime indicator attributes. The javascript is kicked off by the applet. The applet uses the information to build a list of events to subscribe to, and sends that back to the server as a startup.

As far as the requirement... all of our application is web-based. Realtime is merely an outgrowth of the need for up-to-date data.

WRT to sizing: we haven't sized it fully yet. Currently only a small portion of the app is realtime enabled.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Re: Stopping the browser throbber
Yeah, agreed on the frame/javascript issue. We're looking at several alternatives, and the one you cite (one applet with multiple page/javascript consumers) will probably be the way we go.

Since ours is over the internet, the "real-time" concept seems far-fetched for some (since it may take up to a second just to sent one piece of data), but as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it comes down to what the decided acceptable delay is (whether that's sub-second or one minute or whatever).

The guys supporting the network infrastructure were a little nervous about the concept, and we had to do some extensive performance tests to show that the connections being held open didn't cause major issues. There's still a concern as the number of users gets higher, though (like I said...we don't have thousands, fortunately).

From what I've read in this thread, it appears that you're implementing the back-end *very* similarly to the way I am. Spooky.

Dan
New Re: Stopping the browser throbber (new thread)
Created as new thread #60271 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=60271|Re: Stopping the browser throbber]
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
     Stopping the browser throbber - (admin) - (159)
         "This is the page that never ends... - (Fearless Freep) - (2)
             Prescient - (kmself) - (1)
                 Just have someone call - (imric)
         Infinite content or just infinite wait? - (tseliot) - (139)
             Wrong angle :-) - (admin) - (138)
                 Ahhhh. Circumventing another man's app by DESIGN. - (tseliot) - (137)
                     Don't control the deployment that much. - (admin) - (136)
                         Well, sure. - (tseliot) - (3)
                             One connection per session regardless. - (admin) - (2)
                                 Feh. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                     ROFL - (admin)
                         Auto refresh? - (tablizer) - (131)
                             Re: Auto refresh? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                 ...which should be subject to user override - (kmself) - (1)
                                     We are talking B-to-B or intranet, right? - (tablizer)
                             The application uses auto refresh now. - (admin) - (127)
                                 Why is auto-refresh not satisfactory? - (tablizer) - (125)
                                     Because I work on actual large scale applications. - (admin) - (124)
                                         depends on needed refresh rate - (tablizer) - (123)
                                             Re: depends on needed refresh rate - (admin) - (122)
                                                 Nothing is truely "instant" - (tablizer) - (121)
                                                     Re: Nothing is truely "instant" - (admin) - (95)
                                                         JavaScript but *not* client-side script? - (tablizer) - (94)
                                                             Re: JavaScript but *not* client-side script? - (admin) - (93)
                                                                 that is still client-side script/applet - (tablizer) - (92)
                                                                     Fundamental disconnect - (Yendor)
                                                                     Re: that is still client-side script/applet - (admin) - (90)
                                                                         "generic" by what scope? - (tablizer) - (89)
                                                                             Re: "generic" by what scope? - (admin) - (88)
                                                                                 security risks - (tablizer) - (87)
                                                                                     Re: security risks - (pwhysall) - (77)
                                                                                         Turing-complete == more-problems-complete - (tablizer) - (76)
                                                                                             Re: Turing-complete == more-problems-complete - (pwhysall) - (48)
                                                                                                 Using 3 protocols is just plain silly, admit it! - (tablizer) - (47)
                                                                                                     Patently false: DHTML is not the same as DOM - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                         I did not say it was - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                             JS/DOM is not the same as DHTML. - (admin)
                                                                                                     Patently false: three different protocols - (admin) - (22)
                                                                                                         How does that make any difference? Browser still deals w/ 3 -NT - (tablizer) - (21)
                                                                                                             How does that make any difference? Developer still deals w/1 -NT - (admin) - (20)
                                                                                                                 NOPE, 2 - (tablizer) - (19)
                                                                                                                     Same in SCGUI. - (admin) - (18)
                                                                                                                         odd counting - (tablizer) - (17)
                                                                                                                             Re: odd counting - yes, you do count oddly. - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                                                 assumption missing - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                                                     That's even nuttier for you - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                                                                         Clarification - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                                     Re: assumption missing - (pwhysall) - (12)
                                                                                                                                         Cytrix is NOT latency-friendly, and.... - (tablizer) - (11)
                                                                                                                                             Yes it bloody well is! - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                 HTTP is important - (tablizer) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                     Bollocks - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                         I saw it happen - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                             Get a room guys... -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                                                                                             And that proves what? - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                                                             One last thing - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                                                         Actually Bryce has a point here - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                             But I'm wondering how relevant it is. - (static) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                 It is at least halfway - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                     Not quite irrelevent... - (addison)
                                                                                                     Patently false: HTML/DOM/JS requires full page reloads - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                                         Sorry, I misread it. - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                                             Once again: strawman alert - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                 so you say - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Re: so you say - (admin)
                                                                                                     Only one protocol in use - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                                         wrapping is not ridding - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                             Well I never - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                     Patently false: SCGUI is immune to versioning problems - (admin) - (9)
                                                                                                         dancing widgets - (tablizer) - (8)
                                                                                                             SCGUI: moving the complexity to the server. - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                                                 VB, Delphi, Powerbuilder, etc. - (tablizer) - (6)
                                                                                                                     Once again, where is the value-add? - (admin) - (5)
                                                                                                                         same arguments over and over - (tablizer) - (4)
                                                                                                                             I'll agree with that. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                                                 So at least you agree that they want GUI's - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                                                     Re: So at least you agree that they want GUI's - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                                                                         and YOU don't have to present code examples? -NT - (tablizer)
                                                                                                     Patently false: DOM/JS is too complex - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                         "Come here! I'll bite you to death" -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                     No, it's not. - (static)
                                                                                             Re: Turing-complete == more-problems-complete - (admin) - (26)
                                                                                                 The "assembler" argument again - (tablizer) - (21)
                                                                                                     And your proof is? - (admin) - (20)
                                                                                                         first choice? really really? first? - (tablizer) - (19)
                                                                                                             Er, gotcha? - (admin) - (18)
                                                                                                                 Lame first choice - (tablizer) - (17)
                                                                                                                     Sez you. - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                                         Grid? - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                                             Re: Grid? - (admin) - (14)
                                                                                                                                 more to grids than that - (tablizer) - (13)
                                                                                                                                     Re: more to grids than that - (admin) - (12)
                                                                                                                                         Frame == Grid? Egad! - (tablizer) - (11)
                                                                                                                                             What's "Half-ess"? Half an S? -NT - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                 Reply re: S/2 - (tablizer) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                     Don't swear then - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                         anyhow, anybdy still wanna defend frames as grid substute? -NT - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                             Not frames, frame. - (admin) - (6)
                                                                                                                                                                 problems with that approach - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                                                                                                                     Nobody is defending "frames == grid" after all these weeks - (tablizer) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                                         Bryce - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                             I will bet you $100.00 - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                                 I don't care - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                     And stop it with the "listen" sh8t - (tablizer)
                                                                                                 Asynchronous xmit - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                                                                                     Re: Asynchronous xmit - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                         Thanks... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                                                                             We're using it for updates... - (admin)
                                                                                     Re: security risks - (admin) - (8)
                                                                                         Skinny client, skinny needs - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                                                             Re: Skinny client, skinny needs - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                                                                                 The "assembler" argument again - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                                                     Your "point of view" - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                                         I dn't care whthr it's new nor not. It is better than JS+DOM -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                             You have yet to demonstrate that. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                         Re: Your "point of view" - (addison) - (1)
                                                                                                             "Plug-in"? Uhm, isn't that called an X Server...? -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                     I can see I'm going to have to go back to this again. - (admin) - (24)
                                                         This is *not* an OO battle.......yet - (tablizer) - (23)
                                                             I think I'd give up, Bryce. - (static)
                                                             Funny... I could have sworn you said: - (admin) - (21)
                                                                 "doable" is not the criteria I am using. - (tablizer) - (20)
                                                                     ROFL - (admin) - (19)
                                                                         not GUI. QED - (tablizer) - (18)
                                                                             Nothing like answering the question, eh? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                 and you did NOT answer my question - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                     Because... - (pwhysall)
                                                                             Ideal? No. Better than SCGUI? Yes. - (admin) - (14)
                                                                                 HTML + DOM + JS is a fricken mess - (tablizer) - (13)
                                                                                     A little challenge - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                                                                         user interface - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                                             Re: user interface - (pwhysall) - (4)
                                                                                                 Because nobody wants to use that crap for GUI's - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                                     Re: Because nobody wants to use that crap for GUI's - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                                         Forgot one. - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                         sloppy counting - (tablizer)
                                                                                     A little challenge - (pwhysall)
                                                                                     Re: HTML + DOM + JS is a fricken mess - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                         starting a new road when traffic is sufficiently high - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                             Re: starting a new road when traffic is sufficiently high - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                 I have to disagree with your #2 response -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                     No, you don't "have to". You just do so anyway. -NT - (CRConrad)
                                 I'll have a large anchovy pizza, please. -NT - (pwhysall)
         Can you replace the frame with server-side push? -NT - (ben_tilly) - (6)
             Meaning? - (admin) - (5)
                 I thought it did but... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                     The object is to avoid opening a connection every second. - (admin) - (3)
                         40 per second? Faster than a MOVIE - (tablizer) - (2)
                             Re: 40 per second? Faster than a MOVIE - (admin) - (1)
                                 From the mouth of.. erm.. babes. - (addison)
         Synchronized browsing? - (ChrisR) - (4)
             That might not be a bad idea... - (admin) - (2)
                 Simpler than that... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                     Gah. :-) - (admin)
             I just said that (above)!! Copycat! :D -NT - (tseliot)
         Re: Stopping the browser throbber - (dshellman) - (3)
             Re: Stopping the browser throbber - (admin) - (2)
                 Re: Stopping the browser throbber - (dshellman) - (1)
                     Re: Stopping the browser throbber (new thread) - (admin)

DON'T PANIC
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