*shrug* Tell you what. Let's vote on it.

Post #55,547 by imric 10/8/02 6:31:23 PM Reply	shrug Tell you what. Let's vote on it. The reason I used targets was because I find it 'annoying as hell' to have to a) right click then select 'open new window', or B) hit the back button to get back to the forum - especially when I follow links 'further out'. Since opening in a new tab by right clicking DOES work on a targeted link, and DOESN'T leave a blank tab or anything, that means that it can only be 'annoying as hell' if you do a simple click on the link AND you don't mind backing up (possibly many times) to return to the forum. WHEN I am in IE (It happens, you know), non-targeted links on this forum are REALLY 'annoying as hell' to ME - no tabs even available. Opening a new tab becomes an invisible operation. I usually repeat the click several times (OK, did I not hit it, is my browser frozen, is the link Javascript?...). No, it's a fucking target. Funny, I don't see this behaviour. The closest I get to it is IF I have 'open links in background' clicked in tabbed browsing options. I didn't think it was a big deal to stop doing targeting links to new windows, but now I'm not so sure I want to stop. I think the links are better for this board; better for linking to items intended to support a point in a discussion, as opposed to a means of wandering all over the place. Tabs are still an option for those that have them (I can't duplicate the problem you seem to be having with opening targeted links in tabs). So - let's call for a vote. Who doesn't mind [link\|http://www.linuxworld.com/site-stories/2002/0823.kde.html\|targeted links], and [link\|http://www.linuxworld.com/site-stories/2002/0823.kde.html\|who finds them 'annoying as hell']? (sample links - be sure to read the whole article - multiple pages) I will change my linking behaviour according to the wishes of the community. I take extra time to make the links more useful (without having to force extra clickety-clickety-clickety requirements), believe me, I'll have no problem stopping if that's what the majority wants. PS - sorry 'bout potentially changing my mind, Ben, something about Karsten's post just rubbed me the wrong way. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #55,558 by drewk 10/8/02 6:52:45 PM Reply	What he's talking about At my current browser width, I can fit about eight or nine tabs across the top before they start disappearing off the right. There is a small UI widget to indicate you can scroll to the "hidden" tabs, but it's not entirely obvious if you don't go looking for it. If I already have my 9 tabs open, a tenth one won't seem to do anything as I don't see the tab and may not notice the new widet. Personally I default to opening links in the same window I'm in. If I want it in another tab or in a new window I right-click it. In cases where I do that it doesn't matter whether you've targetted the link or not. In cases where I just click it, I'm not terribly bothered by the new window if it appears. (Now that I'm using a tabbed browser, that is.) But for people with other defaults, I can understand it conflicting with their preferred settings. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #55,561 by imric 10/8/02 6:59:25 PM Reply	So - you don't mind targets? 'K.. I'm curious, though - do you see why I do it? Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #55,584 by drewk 10/8/02 7:40:18 PM Reply	Sure, I see why With modern browsers [cough not IE-anything] you can configure this however you want, and override this choice on a per-link basis. But if you are using IEx and the link is targetted you have no choice. There a a few fora I go to where the standard is links within the site open in the same window, outside links open a new window. I'm sure part of this is the old wisdom about how not to lose viewers, but I can also see the two advantages (when it is used responsibly): clear differentiation between internal and external links; and not having to click back through a long chain to get back to where you started. The second issue is IMO outweighed by the fact that far too many poeople don't use them responsibly. I've been to sites where every single link spawned a new window. And no, it wasn't porn, it was just poor design. (I could see the "base" link at the top of each page right above the "generator = FrontPage" metatag.) Which leaves differentiation of internal and external links. IMO people who can't already identify this through any of the multiple other UI hints won't get the difference anyway. So (man this is getting longer than I intended) while I'm not particularly annoyed with them when they are done right (and you've done them "right") I wouldn't put targets in myself, even if it didn't take any extra effort. It's like popups: the utility seems to be outweighed by the potential for abuse. Oh, take all that with [link\|http://www.saltbook.com/saltyages/yan.html\|this] or [link\|http://www.shirtcountry.com/inc/pdetail?v=1&pid=1245\|this], depending on your mood. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #55,569 by ben_tilly 10/8/02 7:11:47 PM Reply	What he said And what prompted me to make my request was doing exactly that. While navigating several pages in parallel I clicked in to IWETHEY, clicked on a link, tabbed elsewhere, came back, went, "Huh, thought I clicked" and did it again, went away, came back and said, "I know that I clicked...oh." Hence the word "stupid" in my "stupid request" title. :-) Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #55,565 by admin 10/8/02 7:04:54 PM Reply	FWIW, I've always disliked targeted links. Because sometimes I do wish to use the same browser window. Case in point: Oracle documentation insists on using a targeted link at certain places. I don't wish to have a billion windows around. Or if I do allow the target, and it's a named target, I end up with the most recent click appearing over whatever I had navigated in that named window. Since I don't use IE (nyah nyah nyah) -- or Windows for that matter -- I just middle-click on the link when I want it to open in another window. No need even for a context menu. :-) While I do appreciate the time you spend trying to make it a better experience here, my own personal preference is for no targets. Of course, the ideal solution here is to add a user preference and parse the targets out of the links when necessary so everyone can have their favorite behavior... Bribes are acceptable, liquid bread preferred. ;-) Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #55,576 by imric 10/8/02 7:29:32 PM Reply	Bribes... Dang - how to get the Guinness to you w/o spoiling in the mail... I know! [link\|http://www.imrics.net/guinness/\|Cheers!] Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #55,578 by admin 10/8/02 7:34:15 PM Reply	Bah. Now I have to go buy some. Once the idea is set in the mind... It is by will alone I set my beer in motion. It is by the juice of hop brew that the thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stain, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my beer in motion. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #55,591 by boxley 10/8/02 7:54:11 PM Reply	If I see a link in Imric's post I know a new window will pop I am sure Karsten knows that as well. Either adjust or dont. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #55,602 by deSitter 10/8/02 8:16:53 PM Reply	Re: shrug Tell you what. Let's vote on it. Hey, just make the targeted links f*cking huge so people can avoid them! -drl
Post #55,606 by boxley 10/8/02 8:44:42 PM Reply	your target did not link :-) will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #55,611 by Another Scott 10/8/02 8:56:11 PM Reply	Can see both sides. I've only been using the tabbed browsing feature of Mozilla a day or so. I usually had about 6 Mozilla windows open when I was browsing, so having a new Target window open was neat and appreciated by me. It does make navigation a bit easier when most of your interaction is in a particular window. Now when I would normally hit Ctrl-N I instead hit Ctrl-T and minimize the clutter on the Taskbar. I'm growing quite fond of it and don't see the need for the target window myself. [...] you don't mind backing up (possibly many times) to return to the forum. WHEN I am in IE (It happens, you know), non-targeted links on this forum are REALLY 'annoying as hell' to ME - no tabs even available. (Emphasis added.) I've been to some sites that put a bunch of cruft on the browser window stack so that hitting Back doesn't go anywhere (apparently by design to try to keep me at their site). As a result, I've become quite adept at hitting the Go menu and selecting the place I want to go back to. :-) It sounds as though leaving out the target window would cause fewer problems here, but I do appreciate the thought and effort you made. Cheers, Scott.
Post #55,677 by kmself 10/9/02 3:11:41 AM 10/9/02 3:31:10 AM Reply	How to open in new windows, block target-generated windows The reason I used targets was because I find it 'annoying as hell' to have to a) right click then select 'open new window'... Middle click (or chorded left & right buttons on my laptop). Opens new tab/window in Galeon, with appropriate preferences setting. OTOH, I just ran across [link\|http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html\|this preferences setting option]: `// Override popping up new windows on target=anything. // This is now accessible in the prefs dialog, under Advanced\|Scripts&Windows. user_pref("browser.block.target_new_window", true);` I'll give that a shot and see how it works. (One browser restart later) OK, that works, confirmed it with your links, imric. So here's the deal: the browser determines behavior. The user can override presentation. And with this setting, no more new windows from target tags. ...and sorry for rubbing you wrong, but now you don't matter ;-) Oh, and nice links, BTW. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand? [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever. Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead. [link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]] Edited by kmself Oct. 9, 2002, 03:31:10 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #55,720 by imric 10/9/02 9:05:33 AM Reply	smile OK, then, no problems anymore? Ben, anyone? Heh - I'm glad I don't matter... :) Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #55,834 by ben_tilly 10/9/02 6:48:43 PM Reply	I can't use Karsten's solution At least not with my current email address because they have pop-ups in several places (launch a pop-up, then navigate the local frame - gets past the Mozilla logic). With Karsten's suggestion I would not be able to read my email. :-( But if I am the only person affected, I can live with a little minor irritation. (Hey, I still have to work with Microsoft products...) Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #55,842 by imric 10/9/02 7:58:14 PM Reply	Hmmm. But you were the one to originally request me not to! I'll think of something. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

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