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New The way it really is
I didn't say "all rich people" quit putting words in my mouth. I just said that there are some scrooges out there.

Foundations, charitable contributions, hospital wings, college buildings, scholarship programs. But all rich people are scrooges. These things are just figments of my imagination.

Not all rich people do these things, in fact, in my area, these things are dropping. They are closing down hospitals, colleges are downsizing, scholarship programs are hard to get, foundations keep calling me asking for money saying that their charitable contributions have gone down. These are indeed facts in my area. Care to explain why these things are happening? Care to explain why a hospital in Normandy, Missouri had to close down? Care to explain to me why some friends of mine who worked at colleges got downsized or reduced to a part-time status as the college has to tighten its belt? Where are all the moneymen and moneywomen to make charitable donations to save these organizations? Oh I admit there are a few, just damn well not enough!

Haven't you noticed that the US government does not treat everyone the same or fairly? Some people are more equal than others. You have two people, one rich and the other poor. They both commit the same crime, yet the poor one gets a public defender for free and the rich gets a team of lawyers because he can afford it. The poor guy goes to jail for a very long time, and the rich guy either gets off or goes to a "county club" prison for a short amount of time and then does community service. Just ask OJ Simpson, you can buy your way out of criminal court. There was a guy in our area that would pick fights with people in bars, and then follow them on the roads when they left, force their car off the road, and then beat them senseless. My mother's goddaughter had her boyfriend that she was about to marry have his bacholar party. This rich jerk decided to pick on him, followed him home, forced him off the road in a car wreck, and then hit him until he was dead. It went to court, and he got off on an assault and battery charge. His lawyers claimed that he could not be charged on more than one criminal charge at a time and the judge only accepted the assault charge. The rich jerk got out and did it again, and before he had killed that man, he had assaulted several others the same way and got a slap on the wrist each time. That is Missouri justice for you, the best justice that money can buy! The best judges that money can buy as well! So don't f*cking tell me that everyone gets treated fairly. I've seen the bullsh*t, I've heard the bullsh*t, my family was affected by the bullsh*t. The rich get all the breaks.

You still have yet to explain how Enron was able to get out of paying taxes, or was able to hide the fact that their accounting was screwed up and management knew about it and sold their stock before the sh*t hit the fan. I wonder how many other companies are like Enron?


BTW...unless the rich people keep the money in their mattress...that money makes it back into the economy as loans and investments. It doesn't just vanish. (money multiplier in action)


Yes loans and investments, usually to other rich guys and invested in other rich companies so the money stays in the top 10%. While the small businesses that have the great and innovative ideas don't get the loans and investments that they need to survive. How about making loans and investments to the other 90% of the economy? I start up a small business, can't even get a 1 cent investment, some rich guy starts up a company with the same ideas as mine, yet gets his Golf Buddies who are also rich to loan him the money and invest in his company. My small business goes out of business, but his company, based on my ideas, makes a ton of money. I applied for the small business loan, I joined garage.com and other "Angel" websites. But did I get any money? I ask you, did I get any money? I'll ask you again, did I get any money for loans and or investments? A big freaking no on that!

I'll ask you yet again, where is that freaking money that was supposed to "trickle down" to the other 90% of the economy? It is a 100% surefire f*cking 100% true fact that I haven't seen any of it! So go sell those lies to someone else who cares, I cannot be brainwashed by them, as they have already driven me crazy.

"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
New Take a chill pill, ya whiner
New I already have
but what pill can I take to change the truth in the way that many of you want to?

"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
New They don't seem to be working. Please move it to Flames.
You're just ranting. You're not presenting any evidence. If you want to rant, please move it to Flames. That's what it's for.

If you want to present evidence for your position, please do so. Links would be nice. Anecdotal evidence doesn't carry much weight.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Thanks for expressing my thought so well, Scott.
Alex

"Of course, you realize this means war." -B. Bunny
New Wow.
Twice in 2 days you've saved me some typing.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Sorry this IS Politics, rant away!
"If you're half-evil, nothing soothes you more than to think the person you are opposed to is totally evil."
Norman Mailer
New Thank you
To BP:
I suppose that my personal experience does not count, but theirs does?

Where can I start with links? How about that Normandy Hospital that closed that I stated as evidence and it is a fact?

[link|http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/special/pdtop5000.nsf/story/225098D38A799A5A862568DD0077FE58?OpenDocument|Five hospitals to close in STL area]

Where are the rich guys to bail out these hospitals and give them more money to stay open? Where is the government on paying for medicare services that hospitals provide? Where is the money that was suppsed to trickle down to these hospitals and the poor that could not afford medical services? Even Canada has a better medical system than us.

[link|http://www.geocities.com/conservative05/supplysideeconomics.html|Supply side economics]

Supply side economics work only in an ideal situation. Many risks are involved in the policy. If the rich do not invest the money in the lower classes, the policy fails. Herbert Hoover was also a big fan of trickle down economics and it is part of the reason this country went into a depression during his administration. In an address to Congress in 1930, he said, \ufffdOur leading business concerns have sustained wages\ufffd These measures have maintained higher degrees of consumption than would have otherwise been the case\ufffd They have thus prevented a large measure of unemployment.\ufffd But, the country knew and felt the real truth behind the words.

[link|http://www.lecturenow.com/People/PatChoate.htm|Pat Choate] holds a PHD in economics and has spoken out against Supply Side economics before.

Read [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0896083284/qid=1013740758/sr=1-12/ref=sr_1_12/002-8275876-5199244|Mink Coats Don't Trickle Down : The Economic Attack on Women and People of Color] it has some interesting evidence and cases that show that the money does not trickle down.

I am still waiting for your proof that supply side economics works. If so, explain the recession after the Reagan/Bush years, explain Herbert Hover and the depression.

Another case example of supply side economics failing:

[link|http://beacon-www.asa.utk.edu/issues/v76/n66/venable.67v.html|Reaganomics kills Journal, causes job losses] your tax dollars at work taking companies out of business.

I remember that the St. Louis Post Dispatch and the St. Louis Globe Democrat went head to head about a decade or longer ago. Guess which newspaper is still in print with modern headlines?

[link|http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/REAGANOMICS.HTM|Some more facts pro and con on Reaganomics] check out the poll as well.

[link|http://www.mojones.com/mother_jones/MJ95/fair.html|Big fat lies]

[link|http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/00db01co.xls|IRS collectable tax for 2000 and 1999] notice the amount collected from corporations and individuals. Which group pays more taxes? [link|http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/00db07co.xls|Fiscal years 1971-2000] notice how the amount of personal income taxes went up, relative to the Corp income taxes.

But anyway the US isn't the only country where the rich pay less taxes [link|http://www.perceptions.couk.com/taxone.html|Check out this UK chart]



"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Expand Edited by nking Feb. 14, 2002, 11:22:14 PM EST
     Can he do it? - (mmoffitt) - (118)
         trickle down economics, smells like P - (boxley) - (1)
             "Austerity" my foot! - (wharris2)
         Fuzzy Math... - (jb4)
         Keeping your eye on the prize... - (screamer)
         I think he can - (ben_tilly)
         "Supply side" economics never works - (nking) - (112)
             Slight disagreement... - (jb4)
             Actually, upside down is how it all started. - (mmoffitt) - (104)
                 You do remember that government revenues increased, right? -NT - (wharris2) - (103)
                     Don't bother them with such trivial details. - (bepatient) - (101)
                         Jed Clampet syndrome - (nking)
                         Doh! forgot about the trivial detail syndrome - (wharris2) - (98)
                             Amen - (SpiceWare) - (97)
                                 How about 7% if you make a billion, 28% if you make 50K? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                     hang those suckers -NT - (wharris2)
                                     and where did you get that from? - (SpiceWare)
                                 Hold on a minute thar! - (nking) - (93)
                                     Elimination of loop holes is a major point of the Flat Tax -NT - (SpiceWare) - (92)
                                         I know, we'll have the Tooth Fairy write the new law. - (mmoffitt) - (91)
                                             Geesh, what 's up your ass? - (SpiceWare)
                                             Oh...you mean the guys who yell.... - (bepatient) - (89)
                                                 The flat tax will never work - (nking) - (1)
                                                     Whoa, there, it was Jerry Brown first! -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                 On fairness. - (mmoffitt) - (86)
                                                     Different definitions of fair. -NT - (bepatient) - (85)
                                                         Re: Different definitions of fair. (more) - (bepatient) - (84)
                                                             Hasn't a sales tax been proven to be regressive? - (Brandioch) - (11)
                                                                 Thats why you exempt food and clothing. - (bepatient) - (10)
                                                                     And that makes it non-regressive? - (Brandioch) - (9)
                                                                         I never made that claim. - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                             Just wondering why you're advocating it. - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                                                 Entertaining yarn at IRS site. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                 If you insist... - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                                     It isn't me that has the problem. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                         whatever. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                             Target acquired. Proceeding with SLAM! - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                 Carry on... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                     "Less regressive" != progressive. - (Brandioch)
                                                             No one wants to punish anyone for success. - (mmoffitt) - (28)
                                                                 Well... - (bepatient) - (26)
                                                                     Let's get a couple things straight. - (mmoffitt) - (20)
                                                                         Bravo!! - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                             Thanks ;-) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                         Lets do. - (bepatient) - (9)
                                                                             Iaccoca a good example - (Silverlock) - (8)
                                                                                 Incorrect assertion... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                     So we misunderstand each other - (Silverlock) - (5)
                                                                                         Hard to get at the real heart of the matter.. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                                             Here's some real heart for you ;-) - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                                 Correction - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                                     "stated position" inferred from your posts. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                         Ahhh, IC - (bepatient)
                                                                                     Re: Lee Iacocca - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                         Ahem...back to the original subject... - (Simon_Jester) - (7)
                                                                             On Force, study California in the 1940's. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                                                                 Cecil doesn't think so. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                                                     Thanks - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                         Google on The Straight Dope - (Another Scott)
                                                                                     Heh. - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                 Evil Grin - before you start praising mass transit... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                                                     RightO! Thanks for reiterating the original point! -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                     7 billion consumers? Me thinks you make a huge mistake - (wharris2) - (2)
                                                                         Missed a comma and 3 - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                             Sounds much better -NT - (wharris2)
                                                                     I'm not replying to this one__ baby from candy. (you owe me) -NT - (Ashton)
                                                                     That is capitalism for you - (nking)
                                                                 Re: No one wants to punish anyone for success. - (nking)
                                                             The rich get away with too much - (nking) - (42)
                                                                 Assertions without foundation. - (bepatient) - (41)
                                                                     The way it really is - (nking) - (7)
                                                                         Take a chill pill, ya whiner -NT - (bbronson) - (6)
                                                                             I already have - (nking) - (5)
                                                                                 They don't seem to be working. Please move it to Flames. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                                                                     Thanks for expressing my thought so well, Scott. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                                     Wow. - (bepatient)
                                                                                     Sorry this IS Politics, rant away! -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                         Thank you - (nking)
                                                                     Re: the entire scrooges argument. - (mmoffitt) - (32)
                                                                         Progress. - (bepatient) - (31)
                                                                             You don't like "screwing"? How about... - (mmoffitt) - (25)
                                                                                 Bizness is morally neuter, ethically impoverished. - (Ashton) - (21)
                                                                                     I expected you here sooner ;-) - (bepatient) - (20)
                                                                                         I will never understand this. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                             Knock, knock... - (screamer) - (2)
                                                                                                 Simpler explanation. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                     Fair enough... Now I understand... - (screamer)
                                                                                         My solution? has always been: actual OPERATING checks & - (Ashton) - (15)
                                                                                             Re: govt. - (a6l6e6x) - (14)
                                                                                                 Yes but.. in concentrating on that 'least' - (Ashton) - (13)
                                                                                                     Federal - (bepatient) - (12)
                                                                                                         Missed point, I think. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                             You can't believe that - (bepatient)
                                                                                                         Bravo! - (screamer)
                                                                                                         That delicate balance.. - (Ashton) - (8)
                                                                                                             I hope this isn't lost. I have a question. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                                                                                 anarchy and chaos is much preferable to a benevolent - (boxley)
                                                                                                                 I can't imagine such a construct as, - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                                     But then, Plato's philosopher king, comes to mind. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                                                                 Benevolent dictatorship? - (Silverlock)
                                                                                                                 The King is coming - (nking) - (2)
                                                                                                                     Indulge your fantasy. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                                         It is a question of when - (nking)
                                                                                 Overestimating marketing. - (bepatient)
                                                                                 Mood rings should have been illegal? :-P -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                     YES! Mine was always black :-) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                             Wrongo! - (nking) - (4)
                                                                                 Read one book. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                     I'm already shocked - (nking) - (2)
                                                                                         Laugh. - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                             Like I said - (nking)
                         It doesn't pay me personally. - (mmoffitt)
                     You do remember the Debt sextupled, right? -NT - (mmoffitt)
             My favorite trivia question - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                 Some references. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     Sorry, no good references - (ben_tilly)
                 Damn you, Ben. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                     I can but try :-) - (ben_tilly)
                 And what was the balance of trade? - (bepatient)

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