Post #28,056
2/11/02 2:05:58 PM
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Well...
And did [link|http://news.smallbusinessstudio.com/articles/01/03/08/145037.html|Lee Iaccoca] start out as CEO of Chrysler? Don't think so. And do you think Ford made a mint on the Mustang? (7 billion+ units) Do you think Lee got his take on that from Ford?
Why do these people >owe< someone else? I see...they "exploited" consumers...because consumers are stupid, average poor people. Back to Iaccoca...he "exploited" 7 BILLION Mustang owners.
Maybe he gave the people what they wanted and what they were willing to pay to get.
Oh...but CEO's make so much more money than the average. Tell me...would you want "the average" running the company as CEO? Or do you think that there might actually be some talent that these guys are being compensated for. The ability to lead, make strategy, build team...nah...they're just lucky sods who don't deserve what they get.
The guy from AT&T. Slashed jobs, got a bonus...company still alive...hmmm...what about the 300,000 other AT&T workers that still have jobs because such measures were taken?
And again...the >attitude< is pervasive. You want to give the government the right to say how much is too much. There is no equality or fairness in that. You want the government to decide who is rich and make them pay more than everyone else....because they OWE IT TO THEM.
Pardon me if I find that attitude just as offensive as the size of some of the compensation packages.
If you want to start on the racist argument...I'm sure we could go around there too. Its not "poor black kids from the inner city" anymore. Inner city kids (black, white, green or any) are at a distinct disadvantage because the school systems suck. Fixing that will fix most of the current opportunity problems. Or are you suggesting that the rich people keep it this way so that they can keep their little club?
Sure it helps to be raised in middle or upper class. But that doesn't guarantee success. In fact, there's probably just as many or more "success stories" among people who came from "nothing" as there are from those who started in the upper class.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #28,072
2/11/02 3:51:32 PM
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Let's get a couple things straight.
>> Inner city kids (black, white, green or any) are at a distinct disadvantage
>> because the school systems suck.
This situation, of course, has nothing at all to do with a lack of money (i.e. taxes paid) right?
>> In fact, there's probably just as many or more "success stories" among people
>> who came from "nothing" as there are from those who started in the upper
>> class.
Might have been a decent stab, if the claim stood a remote chance of being true. I'll stand corrected if you have evidence of this. I know you said "probably", but come on, as many millionaires out of the inner city as out of the country clubs? Nonsense.
>> Or are you suggesting that the rich people keep it this way so that they can
>> keep their little club?
You're catching on now, aren't you?
>> do these people >owe< someone else? I see...they "exploited" consumers...
Let's see if I can >start< a list of the damage done to the populas so that auto execs could earn their billions:
a) dirty air
b) dirty playgrounds from the lead used in the fuel to power automobiles
c) 41,000+ dead per year from the products use
d) dirty water
e) Pintos, need I say more?
And finally,
>>Tell me...would you want "the average" running the company as CEO?
Why not? You seem to be quite happy with "below average" running the whole country! And, IIRC, *before* the annointed one became President, his having the good taste to be born into the right family allowed him to become CEO of a corporation notwithstanding his "less than average" intellect.
bcnu,
Mikem
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Post #28,073
2/11/02 3:56:21 PM
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Bravo!!
I had to bite my tongue to keep from responding to Beep's post. I knew from experience that it would be worth the wait to let you do the rebuttal. Much more entertaining than mine would have been, seeing as how I was going to concentrate on all the logic falaccies.
With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
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Post #28,074
2/11/02 4:03:21 PM
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Thanks ;-)
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Post #28,094
2/11/02 9:24:32 PM
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Lets do.
I live in NJ. My kids and the kids in Camden NJ have the exact same spent per student...but the caliber of education at my local schools versus that in Camden (15 miles away) is vastly different.
Its not just money...or it would be identical, right?
As for success stories...I already linked to one. Iaccoca. I'd bet if you went through the CEO list you'ld find plenty more. Sec State Powell from Harlem, Condoleeza Rice certainly was being held down by "the man" when Denver University let her in at 15. There are more...trust me. I've met alot of them.
The CC comment is beyond ridiculous. Not even worthy.
As for your stats on the auto industry. One question. Do you own a car? Consider yourself a poor, uninformed, duped consumer then. Your comment would lead to the smae conclusion if the invention had been recycled newspaper. If people express a need or desire that someone happens to meet, then the people who have that need have been duped. Yeah...right....sure.
As for GW. He didn't stay CEO for long. And you phrase the statement like there was some kind of choice between above and below average. Thats pretty darned funny too.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #28,115
2/12/02 10:50:20 AM
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Iaccoca a good example
You are usually an effective apologist for the monied class but you slipped a gear on this one. Let's see, you imply that successful people don't owe anything to the society that nurtured that success. I seem to remember a teensy weensy little 1.6 billion dollar bailout of Chrysler while Iaccoca was in charge.
From [link|http://www.encyclopedia.com/articlesnew/06223.html|encyclopedia.com]
Yeah, you're right, the successful don't owe anything to society. They obviously made it by the sweat of their brow and don't owe nobody nothin'.
With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
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Post #28,144
2/12/02 3:29:14 PM
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Incorrect assertion...
Most wealthy folk do, in fact, return alot to the society. Bill Gate's as an example, gives hundreds of millions to various charities, foundations, etc...(and I still don't like him)
They ran an entire 2 hour special on the charitable work of the Microsoft millionaires. (about 100 of them)
The owners of the golf course around the corner from me sponsor city kids to come learn the game...great guys (at least the 3 of 4 with whom I played). All millionaires. All black. Same with the guys I met in Ohio that own a packaging company, a trucking firm, several restaurants...all successful, all started poor in the projects...again all black...and all give back.
As for Iaccoca...you need to read up on that some. Probably the only company in history to actually pay back the fed, in full, years before the notes were due. And since the fed was acquiring quite a bit of military hardware from them...it was in the governments interest to keep them from failing. The economy was already hurting...he secured 2.4 billion in the company and 1.5 billion from the government.
So..son of poor immigrants works his way through company to be forced out by "old school" to move on and engineer one of the most dramatic, large scale corporate turnarounds (bailout implies the fed did not get their money back...they did) in history...that, I believe would be success from hard work. Were other people involved? Sure. Was he appointed? No. Did the sweat of his own brow and his own determination get him to where he was. Yes. Did he VOLUNTARILY give back. Yes. Did he, in the end, get too full of himself and cost himself image...yeah that too ;-)
What you don't understand is my attitude. You consider me an apologist for the wealthy. They don't need that...nor am I. These people, by and large, were successful by work, luck, whatever...but they have lived the American Dream...my issue is the sense of entitlement that comes from the other side. Its not based upon the fact that the rich don't give back because they do. The wealthy do give back. VOLUNTARILY. (So maybe we have to name a building or a foundation after them...big deal) My issue is that your attitude is based upon the premise that >they owe you<. THAT is what I find abhorrent. That is where Ayn Rand had it right. (ouch...that hurts just typing it). The entitlement mentality is my issue.
Rich people got rich. Its America...thats its promise. Anyone can do it with determination and some luck. Damn near everyone can make a living...a better living tham almost anywhere else on the planet. We can take care of those who can't WITHOUT gouging those who "made it".
Is that to say I don't see problems in the current rate of CEO pay. No....there are serious problems there. I also think that since the bubble burst...you'll see alot less of that type of compensation. But feeling that the "millionaire next door" owes you...well we could discuss it I guess...but I can't say that I'd ever understand that attitude.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #28,148
2/12/02 3:58:15 PM
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So we misunderstand each other
You are not an apologist for the wealthy. Fine, I stand corrected. As for your misunderstanding about me- I certainly don't think they "owe" me. I'll make my own way, thank you very much.
You cite examples of the wealthy giving to society. I find it hard to forget the many other examples of the wealthy screwing anybody within range to get more wealth. You tend to focus on one area, I tend to focus on another.
With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
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Post #28,154
2/12/02 4:36:50 PM
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Hard to get at the real heart of the matter..
...around here. S'ok. And I'll grant that I have a tendency to not explain myself fully...generally trying to respond but sometimes doing it a tad too quickly.
Its not a matter of focussing on one side or the other. The wealthy are what they are. If they break any laws screwing people to get more money...then get them. If people volunteer to get screwed, however...its the American Way (big wink)
Otherwise, I have a real problem with what is essentially penalizing them for becoming successful.
Mind you, I had the same problem with the welfare system penalizing people for working harder (loss of benefits exceeded gains in wage).
I pretty much want the fed government out of the social engineering game altogether. John Q Citizen should = John Q Citizen.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #28,174
2/12/02 9:14:43 PM
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Here's some real heart for you ;-)
Take a gander and see if your stated position that "rich corporations are run by really neat people" changes any.
[link|http://www.corporatepredators.org/top100.html|http://www.corporat.../top100.html]
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Post #28,187
2/12/02 11:07:06 PM
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Correction
Real corporations are run by real people.
Some good. Some bad.
In your list provided...some were bad and probably committed knowingly...some were bad and probably committed unknowingly...some were accidental and its kind of hard to put malice into that.
Or are you saying that all companies are evil?
Where did you ever come up with that "stated position" anyway? Creative license.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #28,251
2/13/02 1:22:08 PM
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"stated position" inferred from your posts.
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Post #28,264
2/13/02 2:28:36 PM
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Ahhh, IC
"really neat people"???
Can only tell you what I know from experience. I've met a bunch of guys with initials in their title...only a couple would fit the "neat" category. None of them carried a pitchfork and dressed in red ;-)
My company has settled criminal actions in the past couple of years. Environmental claims. Claims on activity that actually occurred in the 1940's. But, environmental law doesn't grandfather. Since the CEO was about 4 years old at the time...I'm sure he was wondering how to screw John Q Consumer in between naps.
However, companies are staffed and run by real people. There are some ugly real people out there...not all of them are corporate...nor are all of them the mugger in the alley.
Life in the big city.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #28,156
2/12/02 4:46:39 PM
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Re: Lee Iacocca
Lee Iacocca was also the chariman of the [link|http://www.ellisislandrecords.org/membership/wme_1a.asp?|The Statue of Liberty-Ellis Island Foundation.] The Statue of Liberty-Ellis Island Foundation (SOLEIF) was founded in 1982, when President Ronald Reagan asked Lee Iacocca, then Chairman of Chrysler Corporation, to head a citizens group to raise funds for the restoration and preservation of The Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. Being an immigrant, even I gave a donation. Alex
"Of course, you realize this means war." -B. Bunny
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Post #28,114
2/12/02 10:38:22 AM
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Ahem...back to the original subject...
>> do these people >owe< someone else? I see...they "exploited" consumers...
Let's see if I can >start< a list of the damage done to the populas so that auto execs could earn their billions:
a) dirty air
b) dirty playgrounds from the lead used in the fuel to power automobiles
c) 41,000+ dead per year from the products use
d) dirty water
e) Pintos, need I say more?
Most of this argument is faulty and misleading, imo. The CEO didn't force people to use cars and have cooperated with governmental regulations to produce cleaner cars, etc. (CEO's aren't evil by nature.) However, it seems inconceivable that someone would actually attempt to argue that CEO's have achieved everything on their own, without any governmental (public) assistance. Frankly, the current example is perfect; cars would not nearly be so successful without the advent of the public highway system (in particular - interstates).
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Post #28,172
2/12/02 9:10:02 PM
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On Force, study California in the 1940's.
After the war, Standard Oil of California essentially bought all of the City Councils in California.
The mission: Get the city council to pave over all the trolleys so the people would >have< to
purchase automobiles, which of course, required Standard of California's gasoline.
It worked fabulously well. And don't let's get started on all the oil money and influence in Washington,
which habitually either ignores or underfunds cleaner, publicly funded mass transit. You think that's
a coincidence?
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Post #28,184
2/12/02 10:52:01 PM
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Cecil doesn't think so.
And Cecil Adams knows everything, you know. Even more than CRC. :-)
[link|http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_335.html|Did General Motors destroy the LA mass transit system?]
HTH! :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #28,189
2/12/02 11:11:03 PM
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Thanks
It would've taken me forever to find that.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #28,191
2/12/02 11:15:47 PM
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Google on The Straight Dope
Cecil's very good at squashing urban legends.
[link|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=straight+dope+GM+california|Here's] the search I used. First link. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #28,252
2/13/02 1:25:15 PM
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Heh.
>> Now, you may or may not believe GM's professions of innocence concerning the
>> holding company.
Heh. Thank you. I don't.
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Post #28,210
2/13/02 8:46:38 AM
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Evil Grin - before you start praising mass transit...
may I point out that all mass transit (and railroads and airports and ... ) have also relied upon the public, usually in the form of initial (and cheap) land grants and right-of-ways.
(And don't get me started on the deals of Standard Oil...)
The point: again, these guys don't do it by themselves. (I'm amazed that people are even trying to argue the point.) I believe that was your initial argument.
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Post #28,253
2/13/02 1:27:10 PM
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RightO! Thanks for reiterating the original point!
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Post #28,076
2/11/02 4:30:00 PM
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7 billion consumers? Me thinks you make a huge mistake
No way did seven billion people buy Mustangs. No forking way.
Most of the work of government does not need to be done.
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Post #28,093
2/11/02 8:55:54 PM
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Missed a comma and 3
Seven million units since 65.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #28,131
2/12/02 1:55:15 PM
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Sounds much better
Most of the work of government does not need to be done.
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Post #28,091
2/11/02 7:35:19 PM
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I'm not replying to this one__ baby from candy. (you owe me)
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Post #28,196
2/12/02 11:41:01 PM
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That is capitalism for you
and a reason why Hell is populated with rich people who have no idea why they were sent to Hell when they died.
Trust me, I have worked myself sick for my past employers and what do I have to show for it? A bit footprint on my rear end, and I get to watch those that benefitted from my hard work get pay raises and promotions. Don't worry, God is keeping score. Those people will get a warm reception when they die (hopefully of old age) and go to the afterlife. Not helping the poor is AntiChristian, the rich that do not help the poor and middle-class are not true followers of Jesus. Those that claim to be Christian, yet refuse to give away part of their riches, are really worshiping the God of Wealth. You know that guy in the red suit who isn't Santa Claus, quite the opposite.
Heh!
CEOs make Salary caps for their peons, yet have no limitations on their own salary. With the exception of Ben and Jerry's and other corps that limit what their CEO can make to a percentage of the profits. Or Apple where Steve Jobs gets $1USD a year because he is already a billionare. Some CEOs work their employees like slaves, make them work extra hours for no extra pay, refuse to give them stock options or profit sharing unless they are management, and other things. Then when the management screws up, they get rid of thousands of the peons but keep their highly paid managers that screwed up. You call that fair? If so, you have a weird sense of fairness! All that is would be bad business, bad as in bad to humanity. Good to profit making, but bad in karma, and bad as in sinning. It is time that these meglomaniacs pay and give up a part of their ill-gotten wealth.
"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
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