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New No one wants to punish anyone for success.
But that is often the double-speak expressed by plutocrats intent on paying the absolute minimum on taxes.

>>Why won't this work...because those who think the "rich people" owe them
>>something would argue that since they don't spend everything they have...they
>>wouldn't pay "their fair share".

Perhaps "rich people" do owe the people who made them rich something? Or is it your position that people become rich only by the sweat of their own brow?

Again, it is an issue of fairness. If and only if rich Americans became rich solely of their own account, owing nothing to the laborers they hired, nor the consumers they exploited could the claim be made that "rich people don't owe society anything for their largesse." (Quick examples: Lee Iacoca. Does he owe the taxpayers anything? How about, damn - forgot his name - Robert somebody, the old CEO of AT&T who laid off > 10,000 telephone operators and then got a 5 million dollar bonus as a consequence for his trouble. What part of that 5 million does he owe to the people he laid off? Anything?)

>>If you mean by "fair" that there is opportunity for anyone then I would
>>suppose I would say that I believe the system is "fair".

"Anyone"? Equally? You can't mean that unless you think a black kid born in the inner city had just as great a chance starting out as Dubya did.
bcnu,
Mikem
New Well...
And did [link|http://news.smallbusinessstudio.com/articles/01/03/08/145037.html|Lee Iaccoca] start out as CEO of Chrysler? Don't think so. And do you think Ford made a mint on the Mustang? (7 billion+ units) Do you think Lee got his take on that from Ford?

Why do these people >owe< someone else? I see...they "exploited" consumers...because consumers are stupid, average poor people. Back to Iaccoca...he "exploited" 7 BILLION Mustang owners.

Maybe he gave the people what they wanted and what they were willing to pay to get.

Oh...but CEO's make so much more money than the average. Tell me...would you want "the average" running the company as CEO? Or do you think that there might actually be some talent that these guys are being compensated for. The ability to lead, make strategy, build team...nah...they're just lucky sods who don't deserve what they get.

The guy from AT&T. Slashed jobs, got a bonus...company still alive...hmmm...what about the 300,000 other AT&T workers that still have jobs because such measures were taken?

And again...the >attitude< is pervasive. You want to give the government the right to say how much is too much. There is no equality or fairness in that. You want the government to decide who is rich and make them pay more than everyone else....because they OWE IT TO THEM.

Pardon me if I find that attitude just as offensive as the size of some of the compensation packages.

If you want to start on the racist argument...I'm sure we could go around there too. Its not "poor black kids from the inner city" anymore. Inner city kids (black, white, green or any) are at a distinct disadvantage because the school systems suck. Fixing that will fix most of the current opportunity problems. Or are you suggesting that the rich people keep it this way so that they can keep their little club?

Sure it helps to be raised in middle or upper class. But that doesn't guarantee success. In fact, there's probably just as many or more "success stories" among people who came from "nothing" as there are from those who started in the upper class.





You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Let's get a couple things straight.
>> Inner city kids (black, white, green or any) are at a distinct disadvantage
>> because the school systems suck.

This situation, of course, has nothing at all to do with a lack of money (i.e. taxes paid) right?

>> In fact, there's probably just as many or more "success stories" among people
>> who came from "nothing" as there are from those who started in the upper
>> class.

Might have been a decent stab, if the claim stood a remote chance of being true. I'll stand corrected if you have evidence of this. I know you said "probably", but come on, as many millionaires out of the inner city as out of the country clubs? Nonsense.

>> Or are you suggesting that the rich people keep it this way so that they can
>> keep their little club?

You're catching on now, aren't you?

>> do these people >owe< someone else? I see...they "exploited" consumers...

Let's see if I can >start< a list of the damage done to the populas so that auto execs could earn their billions:
a) dirty air
b) dirty playgrounds from the lead used in the fuel to power automobiles
c) 41,000+ dead per year from the products use
d) dirty water
e) Pintos, need I say more?

And finally,

>>Tell me...would you want "the average" running the company as CEO?

Why not? You seem to be quite happy with "below average" running the whole country! And, IIRC, *before* the annointed one became President, his having the good taste to be born into the right family allowed him to become CEO of a corporation notwithstanding his "less than average" intellect.
bcnu,
Mikem
New Bravo!!
I had to bite my tongue to keep from responding to Beep's post. I knew from experience that it would be worth the wait to let you do the rebuttal. Much more entertaining than mine would have been, seeing as how I was going to concentrate on all the logic falaccies.
With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
New Thanks ;-)
New Lets do.
I live in NJ. My kids and the kids in Camden NJ have the exact same spent per student...but the caliber of education at my local schools versus that in Camden (15 miles away) is vastly different.

Its not just money...or it would be identical, right?

As for success stories...I already linked to one. Iaccoca. I'd bet if you went through the CEO list you'ld find plenty more. Sec State Powell from Harlem, Condoleeza Rice certainly was being held down by "the man" when Denver University let her in at 15. There are more...trust me. I've met alot of them.

The CC comment is beyond ridiculous. Not even worthy.

As for your stats on the auto industry. One question. Do you own a car? Consider yourself a poor, uninformed, duped consumer then. Your comment would lead to the smae conclusion if the invention had been recycled newspaper. If people express a need or desire that someone happens to meet, then the people who have that need have been duped. Yeah...right....sure.

As for GW. He didn't stay CEO for long. And you phrase the statement like there was some kind of choice between above and below average. Thats pretty darned funny too.

You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Iaccoca a good example
You are usually an effective apologist for the monied class but you slipped a gear on this one. Let's see, you imply that successful people don't owe anything to the society that nurtured that success. I seem to remember a teensy weensy little 1.6 billion dollar bailout of Chrysler while Iaccoca was in charge.

From [link|http://www.encyclopedia.com/articlesnew/06223.html|encyclopedia.com]

Yeah, you're right, the successful don't owe anything to society. They obviously made it by the sweat of their brow and don't owe nobody nothin'.
With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
New Incorrect assertion...
Most wealthy folk do, in fact, return alot to the society. Bill Gate's as an example, gives hundreds of millions to various charities, foundations, etc...(and I still don't like him)

They ran an entire 2 hour special on the charitable work of the Microsoft millionaires. (about 100 of them)

The owners of the golf course around the corner from me sponsor city kids to come learn the game...great guys (at least the 3 of 4 with whom I played). All millionaires. All black. Same with the guys I met in Ohio that own a packaging company, a trucking firm, several restaurants...all successful, all started poor in the projects...again all black...and all give back.

As for Iaccoca...you need to read up on that some. Probably the only company in history to actually pay back the fed, in full, years before the notes were due. And since the fed was acquiring quite a bit of military hardware from them...it was in the governments interest to keep them from failing. The economy was already hurting...he secured 2.4 billion in the company and 1.5 billion from the government.
So..son of poor immigrants works his way through company to be forced out by "old school" to move on and engineer one of the most dramatic, large scale corporate turnarounds (bailout implies the fed did not get their money back...they did) in history...that, I believe would be success from hard work. Were other people involved? Sure. Was he appointed? No. Did the sweat of his own brow and his own determination get him to where he was. Yes. Did he VOLUNTARILY give back. Yes. Did he, in the end, get too full of himself and cost himself image...yeah that too ;-)

What you don't understand is my attitude. You consider me an apologist for the wealthy. They don't need that...nor am I. These people, by and large, were successful by work, luck, whatever...but they have lived the American Dream...my issue is the sense of entitlement that comes from the other side. Its not based upon the fact that the rich don't give back because they do. The wealthy do give back. VOLUNTARILY. (So maybe we have to name a building or a foundation after them...big deal) My issue is that your attitude is based upon the premise that >they owe you<. THAT is what I find abhorrent. That is where Ayn Rand had it right. (ouch...that hurts just typing it). The entitlement mentality is my issue.

Rich people got rich. Its America...thats its promise. Anyone can do it with determination and some luck. Damn near everyone can make a living...a better living tham almost anywhere else on the planet. We can take care of those who can't WITHOUT gouging those who "made it".

Is that to say I don't see problems in the current rate of CEO pay. No....there are serious problems there. I also think that since the bubble burst...you'll see alot less of that type of compensation. But feeling that the "millionaire next door" owes you...well we could discuss it I guess...but I can't say that I'd ever understand that attitude.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New So we misunderstand each other
You are not an apologist for the wealthy. Fine, I stand corrected. As for your misunderstanding about me- I certainly don't think they "owe" me. I'll make my own way, thank you very much.

You cite examples of the wealthy giving to society. I find it hard to forget the many other examples of the wealthy screwing anybody within range to get more wealth. You tend to focus on one area, I tend to focus on another.
With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
New Hard to get at the real heart of the matter..
...around here. S'ok. And I'll grant that I have a tendency to not explain myself fully...generally trying to respond but sometimes doing it a tad too quickly.

Its not a matter of focussing on one side or the other. The wealthy are what they are. If they break any laws screwing people to get more money...then get them. If people volunteer to get screwed, however...its the American Way (big wink)

Otherwise, I have a real problem with what is essentially penalizing them for becoming successful.

Mind you, I had the same problem with the welfare system penalizing people for working harder (loss of benefits exceeded gains in wage).

I pretty much want the fed government out of the social engineering game altogether. John Q Citizen should = John Q Citizen.



You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Here's some real heart for you ;-)
Take a gander and see if your stated position that "rich corporations are run by really neat people" changes any.

[link|http://www.corporatepredators.org/top100.html|http://www.corporat.../top100.html]

New Correction
Real corporations are run by real people.

Some good. Some bad.

In your list provided...some were bad and probably committed knowingly...some were bad and probably committed unknowingly...some were accidental and its kind of hard to put malice into that.

Or are you saying that all companies are evil?

Where did you ever come up with that "stated position" anyway? Creative license.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New "stated position" inferred from your posts.
New Ahhh, IC
"really neat people"???

Can only tell you what I know from experience. I've met a bunch of guys with initials in their title...only a couple would fit the "neat" category. None of them carried a pitchfork and dressed in red ;-)

My company has settled criminal actions in the past couple of years. Environmental claims. Claims on activity that actually occurred in the 1940's. But, environmental law doesn't grandfather. Since the CEO was about 4 years old at the time...I'm sure he was wondering how to screw John Q Consumer in between naps.

However, companies are staffed and run by real people. There are some ugly real people out there...not all of them are corporate...nor are all of them the mugger in the alley.

Life in the big city.

You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Re: Lee Iacocca
Lee Iacocca was also the chariman of the [link|http://www.ellisislandrecords.org/membership/wme_1a.asp?|The Statue of Liberty-Ellis Island Foundation.]
The Statue of Liberty-Ellis Island Foundation (SOLEIF) was founded in 1982, when President Ronald Reagan asked Lee Iacocca, then Chairman of Chrysler Corporation, to head a citizens group to raise funds for the restoration and preservation of The Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island.
Being an immigrant, even I gave a donation.
Alex

"Of course, you realize this means war." -B. Bunny
New Ahem...back to the original subject...

>> do these people >owe< someone else? I see...they "exploited" consumers...

Let's see if I can >start< a list of the damage done to the populas so that auto execs could earn their billions:
a) dirty air
b) dirty playgrounds from the lead used in the fuel to power automobiles
c) 41,000+ dead per year from the products use
d) dirty water
e) Pintos, need I say more?


Most of this argument is faulty and misleading, imo. The CEO didn't force people to use cars and have cooperated with governmental regulations to produce cleaner cars, etc. (CEO's aren't evil by nature.)

However, it seems inconceivable that someone would actually attempt to argue that CEO's have achieved everything on their own, without any governmental (public) assistance. Frankly, the current example is perfect; cars would not nearly be so successful without the advent of the public highway system (in particular - interstates).
New On Force, study California in the 1940's.
After the war, Standard Oil of California essentially bought all of the City Councils in California.

The mission: Get the city council to pave over all the trolleys so the people would >have< to
purchase automobiles, which of course, required Standard of California's gasoline.

It worked fabulously well. And don't let's get started on all the oil money and influence in Washington,
which habitually either ignores or underfunds cleaner, publicly funded mass transit. You think that's
a coincidence?
New Cecil doesn't think so.
And Cecil Adams knows everything, you know. Even more than CRC. :-)

[link|http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_335.html|Did General Motors destroy the LA mass transit system?]

HTH! :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Thanks
It would've taken me forever to find that.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Google on The Straight Dope
Cecil's very good at squashing urban legends.

[link|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=straight+dope+GM+california|Here's] the search I used. First link. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Heh.
>> Now, you may or may not believe GM's professions of innocence concerning the
>> holding company.

Heh. Thank you. I don't.
New Evil Grin - before you start praising mass transit...
may I point out that all mass transit (and railroads and airports and ... ) have also relied upon the public, usually in the form of initial (and cheap) land grants and right-of-ways.

(And don't get me started on the deals of Standard Oil...)

The point: again, these guys don't do it by themselves. (I'm amazed that people are even trying to argue the point.) I believe that was your initial argument.
New RightO! Thanks for reiterating the original point!
New 7 billion consumers? Me thinks you make a huge mistake
No way did seven billion people buy Mustangs. No forking way.
Most of the work of government does not need to be done.
New Missed a comma and 3
Seven million units since 65.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Sounds much better
Most of the work of government does not need to be done.
New I'm not replying to this one__ baby from candy. (you owe me)
New That is capitalism for you
and a reason why Hell is populated with rich people who have no idea why they were sent to Hell when they died.

Trust me, I have worked myself sick for my past employers and what do I have to show for it? A bit footprint on my rear end, and I get to watch those that benefitted from my hard work get pay raises and promotions. Don't worry, God is keeping score. Those people will get a warm reception when they die (hopefully of old age) and go to the afterlife. Not helping the poor is AntiChristian, the rich that do not help the poor and middle-class are not true followers of Jesus. Those that claim to be Christian, yet refuse to give away part of their riches, are really worshiping the God of Wealth. You know that guy in the red suit who isn't Santa Claus, quite the opposite.

Heh!

CEOs make Salary caps for their peons, yet have no limitations on their own salary. With the exception of Ben and Jerry's and other corps that limit what their CEO can make to a percentage of the profits. Or Apple where Steve Jobs gets $1USD a year because he is already a billionare. Some CEOs work their employees like slaves, make them work extra hours for no extra pay, refuse to give them stock options or profit sharing unless they are management, and other things. Then when the management screws up, they get rid of thousands of the peons but keep their highly paid managers that screwed up. You call that fair? If so, you have a weird sense of fairness! All that is would be bad business, bad as in bad to humanity. Good to profit making, but bad in karma, and bad as in sinning. It is time that these meglomaniacs pay and give up a part of their ill-gotten wealth.

"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
New Re: No one wants to punish anyone for success.
The way it is in US Capitalism is almost the same way it was in Feudalism. You have your haves and your havenots. Slavery was done away with, you no longer can own slaves, but you can now have them under contract and limit their rights by that contract. We are all just surfs working for Kings and Queens to make them richer and more powerfull. Every once in a while we get lucky and some of those Kings and Queens throw us a bone or do a "sociable" thing to make them feel good to give away a small fraction of their wealth to get it back in tax breaks, or to get some sort of award from their peers. This is of course not always common and not done by every King and Queen. If you are not royalty, you cannot make it in the big time unless you brownnose the right rear end.

How dare we claim that the Kings and Queens pay their own fair share of taxes? Why it is a privilage of the rich to avoid as much taxes as they can by using their loyal henchmen (Lawyers and Accountants) to reduce the taxes they pay.

Even if it makes more sense to mine for gold in a larger mine that has more gold in it, it seems that or Uncle Sam would rather mine for gold in smaller mines that hardly have any gold in it whatsoever! Why tap a lake, when you can tap a puddle of water? Why tell that 150 pound man to lose weight when you have a 800 pound man standing next to him that you said was in good shape?

Want to get rich? Follow the same plan that many others have followed:

#1 Stab all your coworkers in the back. Blame them for your mistakes, and spread rumors about them to get them fired. Don't target anyone who is willing to become your stooge or that brownnoses you. If you stab them in the back and they keep working for you with no complaints, keep them.

#2 Learn how to lie while keeping a straight face. Practice "Trickle down theory works!" "OJ Simpson was innocent!" "Enron is a good stock investment!" "The Republican Party cares about the poor!" If you get to the point that you start believing your own lies, then you are almost ready.

#3 Find out what other people are doing, and steal their ideas. Steal the ideas of your coworkers. Learn to say what they say in meetings and at lunch, and then reword it a bit with "buzzwords" so it sounds impressive. Make sure that you hide any memos about meetings so your coworkers won't be able to contradict you in meetings that you stole their ideas.

#4 Remember step number 1? Build up your base of loyal stooges and work them as hard as you can. If they don't quit or complain, keep them employed. Monitor them like Big Brother, force them to work extra hours without pay. If any of them complain, get rid of them. If the EEOC calls you, they can be bought off for the right price. Moving on up to management is simple if you are already a crook.

#5 If you company cannot make the products and/or services that you want them to, then just buy out a smaller company. If the DOJ investigates you, just hire a team of high priced lawyers and have them create a ton of fake documents and other evidence to throw at the DOJ. Fake videos, fake evidence, and then claim you don't know what is happening if you get caught.

#6 Make sure that you keep brownnosing, and invest money in your "buddies" companies and make loans to them as well. Keep that money in the top 10%, and always follow a stock tip from your "buddy" who works at the company you are investing in. "Insider Trading" charges can also be paid away in case you get caught.

#7 Join the Republican Party, subscribe to the "Supply Side" economics theory, despite the many holes shot into it. Learn the secret handshakes, and the art of the deal. Sign that contract in blood with that weird looking guy who promises you wealth and power.

#8 Buy or rent the media to create positive articles on your company, products, or services. Time/Warner/AOL is a good one to rent, just ask Apple. :) Make sure that you give them an "exclusive deal".

#9 Lie, cheat, commit fraud, stab anyone in the back that stands in your way. The best way to do this is to pretend to be their friend, promise them a lot of things, break those promises, and then spread rumors about them and do what you can to get them fired and ruin their career. You can hire people to create false evidence, plant evidence, and create false information about them. Then deny knowing anthing about that if they are caught.

#10 Make sure that you keep the illusion that the USA is fair, and that everyone has an equal chance to become a billonare no matter what their background. That keeps the rest of them working as hard as they can for you. Make sure that you spread this BS on Internet forums, newsgroups, IRC chats, and any other place that you can think of. Also have your stooges do it for you as well.

Repeat steps 1 to 10, over and over again, until you finally do succeed. Apparently it has worked for many people, despite the number of times they have screwed up or failed. Remember that even that guy who uses those lame pick-up lines will eventually find a woman who falls for it, after getting rejected by a thousand women. So keep acting like a Rich Jerk, and eventually you will become a Rich Jerk!

"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
     Can he do it? - (mmoffitt) - (118)
         trickle down economics, smells like P - (boxley) - (1)
             "Austerity" my foot! - (wharris2)
         Fuzzy Math... - (jb4)
         Keeping your eye on the prize... - (screamer)
         I think he can - (ben_tilly)
         "Supply side" economics never works - (nking) - (112)
             Slight disagreement... - (jb4)
             Actually, upside down is how it all started. - (mmoffitt) - (104)
                 You do remember that government revenues increased, right? -NT - (wharris2) - (103)
                     Don't bother them with such trivial details. - (bepatient) - (101)
                         Jed Clampet syndrome - (nking)
                         Doh! forgot about the trivial detail syndrome - (wharris2) - (98)
                             Amen - (SpiceWare) - (97)
                                 How about 7% if you make a billion, 28% if you make 50K? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                     hang those suckers -NT - (wharris2)
                                     and where did you get that from? - (SpiceWare)
                                 Hold on a minute thar! - (nking) - (93)
                                     Elimination of loop holes is a major point of the Flat Tax -NT - (SpiceWare) - (92)
                                         I know, we'll have the Tooth Fairy write the new law. - (mmoffitt) - (91)
                                             Geesh, what 's up your ass? - (SpiceWare)
                                             Oh...you mean the guys who yell.... - (bepatient) - (89)
                                                 The flat tax will never work - (nking) - (1)
                                                     Whoa, there, it was Jerry Brown first! -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                 On fairness. - (mmoffitt) - (86)
                                                     Different definitions of fair. -NT - (bepatient) - (85)
                                                         Re: Different definitions of fair. (more) - (bepatient) - (84)
                                                             Hasn't a sales tax been proven to be regressive? - (Brandioch) - (11)
                                                                 Thats why you exempt food and clothing. - (bepatient) - (10)
                                                                     And that makes it non-regressive? - (Brandioch) - (9)
                                                                         I never made that claim. - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                             Just wondering why you're advocating it. - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                                                 Entertaining yarn at IRS site. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                 If you insist... - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                                     It isn't me that has the problem. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                         whatever. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                             Target acquired. Proceeding with SLAM! - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                 Carry on... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                     "Less regressive" != progressive. - (Brandioch)
                                                             No one wants to punish anyone for success. - (mmoffitt) - (28)
                                                                 Well... - (bepatient) - (26)
                                                                     Let's get a couple things straight. - (mmoffitt) - (20)
                                                                         Bravo!! - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                             Thanks ;-) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                         Lets do. - (bepatient) - (9)
                                                                             Iaccoca a good example - (Silverlock) - (8)
                                                                                 Incorrect assertion... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                     So we misunderstand each other - (Silverlock) - (5)
                                                                                         Hard to get at the real heart of the matter.. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                                             Here's some real heart for you ;-) - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                                 Correction - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                                     "stated position" inferred from your posts. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                         Ahhh, IC - (bepatient)
                                                                                     Re: Lee Iacocca - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                         Ahem...back to the original subject... - (Simon_Jester) - (7)
                                                                             On Force, study California in the 1940's. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                                                                 Cecil doesn't think so. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                                                     Thanks - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                         Google on The Straight Dope - (Another Scott)
                                                                                     Heh. - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                 Evil Grin - before you start praising mass transit... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                                                     RightO! Thanks for reiterating the original point! -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                     7 billion consumers? Me thinks you make a huge mistake - (wharris2) - (2)
                                                                         Missed a comma and 3 - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                             Sounds much better -NT - (wharris2)
                                                                     I'm not replying to this one__ baby from candy. (you owe me) -NT - (Ashton)
                                                                     That is capitalism for you - (nking)
                                                                 Re: No one wants to punish anyone for success. - (nking)
                                                             The rich get away with too much - (nking) - (42)
                                                                 Assertions without foundation. - (bepatient) - (41)
                                                                     The way it really is - (nking) - (7)
                                                                         Take a chill pill, ya whiner -NT - (bbronson) - (6)
                                                                             I already have - (nking) - (5)
                                                                                 They don't seem to be working. Please move it to Flames. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                                                                     Thanks for expressing my thought so well, Scott. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                                     Wow. - (bepatient)
                                                                                     Sorry this IS Politics, rant away! -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                         Thank you - (nking)
                                                                     Re: the entire scrooges argument. - (mmoffitt) - (32)
                                                                         Progress. - (bepatient) - (31)
                                                                             You don't like "screwing"? How about... - (mmoffitt) - (25)
                                                                                 Bizness is morally neuter, ethically impoverished. - (Ashton) - (21)
                                                                                     I expected you here sooner ;-) - (bepatient) - (20)
                                                                                         I will never understand this. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                             Knock, knock... - (screamer) - (2)
                                                                                                 Simpler explanation. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                     Fair enough... Now I understand... - (screamer)
                                                                                         My solution? has always been: actual OPERATING checks & - (Ashton) - (15)
                                                                                             Re: govt. - (a6l6e6x) - (14)
                                                                                                 Yes but.. in concentrating on that 'least' - (Ashton) - (13)
                                                                                                     Federal - (bepatient) - (12)
                                                                                                         Missed point, I think. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                             You can't believe that - (bepatient)
                                                                                                         Bravo! - (screamer)
                                                                                                         That delicate balance.. - (Ashton) - (8)
                                                                                                             I hope this isn't lost. I have a question. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                                                                                 anarchy and chaos is much preferable to a benevolent - (boxley)
                                                                                                                 I can't imagine such a construct as, - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                                     But then, Plato's philosopher king, comes to mind. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                                                                 Benevolent dictatorship? - (Silverlock)
                                                                                                                 The King is coming - (nking) - (2)
                                                                                                                     Indulge your fantasy. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                                         It is a question of when - (nking)
                                                                                 Overestimating marketing. - (bepatient)
                                                                                 Mood rings should have been illegal? :-P -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                     YES! Mine was always black :-) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                             Wrongo! - (nking) - (4)
                                                                                 Read one book. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                     I'm already shocked - (nking) - (2)
                                                                                         Laugh. - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                             Like I said - (nking)
                         It doesn't pay me personally. - (mmoffitt)
                     You do remember the Debt sextupled, right? -NT - (mmoffitt)
             My favorite trivia question - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                 Some references. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     Sorry, no good references - (ben_tilly)
                 Damn you, Ben. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                     I can but try :-) - (ben_tilly)
                 And what was the balance of trade? - (bepatient)

Laugh self to death.
309 ms