Suffering

Post #25,225 by nking 1/23/02 2:29:22 AM Reply	Suffering All life is suffering, the Buddists teach that. It is true. We suffer, just in different degrees of suffering. I do not like my suffering, I hate it. Just that there isn't much I can do about it besides blow my brains out or suffer a long time before I die. If you have studied, like I have, you will have found out that we all have to die sometime. Human beings are mortal, and the body will die of old age if something else doesn't kill us before then. So what is the point in living if it is suffering all the time? What if my suffering is more than I can handle? What if it just keeps getting worse? "Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Post #25,238 by Ashton 1/23/02 7:20:01 AM Reply	If you paid attention to what you were studying, you might have noted the 'source' of the unnecessary part of the suffering - 'attachment', also its relationship to 'desire'. Then too - what was said about the pain/pleasure duality. Fear + Desire governs many lives, leads to other fantasies - "bargaining with deities" and the like. One need not play in those fields, however Popular it is to do so. The suffering is neither more nor less than: the attitude in our minds. (Not talking about when you hit thumb with hammer - that goes away automatically). Possibly you didn't pay quite enough attention to grok that stuff. But you'd have to be seriously interested to do that - were you? (Logic is decidedly.. not enough. There.) Ashton
Post #25,413 by nking 1/24/02 12:18:43 AM Reply	What are you talking about? Unneccisary part of the suffering? Is any suffering neccisary? Does anyone desire to suffer if they had a choice? If I had a choice I wouldn't suffer. But I don't, and I do. it seems like I cannot do anything right, and people always criticize me. Even when I do things right, people have to find fault somewhere, or make stuff up to make me look bad. Perhaps they just see things that are not there? In any case it causes me misery. I might as well do a Kurt Cobain like a friend of mine did. But a part of me does not want to die, even if the suffering and depression is causing suicidal thoughts. This world is seriously messed up. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle-class get trampled on. The government does not care about us, and is only concerned about kick backs, and special interest groups, and corporations rather than the rights of the people. We need a serious reform of our government. Corporations need to treat their employees with more respect. Sometimes I feel like I have died and this is Hell. No other word can describe it. Maybe that is why I am harassed, picked on, threatened, and taken advantage of at every step and turn of my life? Maybe that is why my suffering is so great that I can hardly stand it? It is like I have a sun and a black hole at the center of my brain trying to fight to take the other out. It is like this has happened for an infinite eternities. Like every time the universe gets restarted there is another me, who also suffers most of his life. I cannot live, I cannot die, I just exist to suffer greatly and I am not sure why. "Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Post #25,420 by ben_tilly 1/24/02 2:36:19 AM Reply	You were the one who brought up Buddhism Ashton just assumed that you knew about it and reminded you of the textbook Buddhist dogma on the root cause of suffering. It is not central to Buddhism, but most Buddhists believe in rebirth, and so you cannot even relieve your suffering by dying, you get reborn and are still stuck in this world. As for having a choice or not, various kinds of Buddhist meditations are supposed to help you realize at a gut level the connection between attachment and suffering, and through self-knowledge, achieve a release from suffering. If you lack this awareness, you will not see that you have choices because you cannot tell when you made the decisions (again) that lead to suffering. (Note, I am not saying here that I agree with this - I don't - I am just laying out the belief system.) Once you have this awareness, you can choose. One with complete awareness achieves the Great Release (from suffering) at which point one is enlightened and is a Buddha. Based on what Ashton said, he is almost definitely a Buddhist. His answer is certainly a classic Buddhist answer. Namely that if you know about Buddhism, then you should know that suffering may be universal, but it is a disease with a cure, and that cure is to achieve a release from the attachment that leads you to misery. It isn't an intellectual cure, you need to really not be attached. Now whether or not you are a Buddhist, there is no question that their meditation techniques have helped many people deal with depression and stressful circumstances. Cheers, Ben
Post #25,628 by nking 1/24/02 7:32:33 PM Reply	I am Not a Buddist, but my wife was I did study up on it, but not fully. Not all Buddists follow their paths 100%, just as not all Christians do, etc. I strive to be a better person than the rest of the human race, I do what I think is best and what I think is right. I tried meditations, but I am not a master of self awareness or whatever. I could not get relif from my depression. It may be biochemical, and genetic, as doctors have said. If that is the case, meditation will not work, and if I die and get a new body the chances of the new body not having the biochemcial imbalance might be better. Speaking of reincarnation, my son claimed that when I was younger he was my father. Which is odd, as my father is still alive and with my mother. He told his grandmother that he used to take care of her when he was a man, and now he is a boy and she takes care of him when he visits her. Is he just day-dreaming, or can he be my father when my father is still alive? Can reincarnation transcend time and space so that when one dies, they can go back in time to be re-born? "Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Post #25,643 by ben_tilly 1/24/02 9:00:07 PM Reply	What I described was pretty basic For Buddhists that should be about as basic as, say, it is for Christians that God sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ to us, who died on the Cross that we might receive Salvation. As for meditation and depression, I have heard from people who suffer from the latter and practice the former that it helps, but doesn't stick. That is, you go and meditate for a month and you are in good shape, but get back to normal life and in 3 months you are back where you were. And about reincarnation, people can be found with beliefs all of the way from our having many lives, which do not need to be in chronological order to this one is it, and you don't live after you die. There is nothing that I know of to indicate that any of them are more likely than the others. (There are some that I consider less likely, but that is another story.) So your son's belief is not something I can disprove. OTOH I think there are more obvious possibilities for why your son might have said that that than his actually being your father in another life. (Not everything that people say they think necessarily happened.) Cheers, Ben
Post #25,830 by Ashton 1/26/02 12:46:42 AM Reply	My comment was based on yours. By now I'd imagine you might have gleaned some idea of my attitude toward 'evangelism' (re Anything) - persuading people who are not I.. to 'believe' metaphysically as I might or might not? appears to me to need no detailed analysis for ethical and practical flaws. No. I am not a Buddhist. Either. That says nothing of my respect for its possibilities. But then too.. Buddhism is not a 'religion'; it postulates no Godheads, not even The Buddha as such: he was merely a One who became Enlightened. It appears that at any time, there are n Enlightened Ones about. None has any reason to.. proselytize - but some will answer questions. You have to ask. After you find one. (Whether or not this is fact - is of course of interest only to those.. for whom it is of interest.) As to effects of 'meditation' upon depression: Ben offered one person's comment on effects he noted - and the duration. I have no more extensive experience than a few, and those aren't relevant to your comments. I'd opine merely - calmness achieved by most means - never hurts; for some it cures. It appears to me that there is an epidemic in America of depression, a vague other one called stress -- and a plethora of ready-mix Pharm-Chem products to sell. Having myself, near-no 'faith' in the ideas of causality rampant in AMA circles, and little more in the popular psych mantras - my view is biased accordingly. It is a simple one, though: Our culture and the physical environment 'it' has created for/by us IS making us all sick, to various degrees depending on our personal chemistry and attitude about our life. I believe that cancer is the most prominent symptom and our War on It is as inept as our other Wars. It derives from blinkered linear thinking - just like the other Wars. Whether or not my diagnosis is valid, I (try to) behave as if it were: eschewing most all AMA attention except (if need be) diagnosis. (Trauma repair - is where AMA medicine is unsurpassed.) I have found other approaches for the occasional distemper or annoyance as bodies develop - but even if these work for me - so what? Same deal re proselytizing. I've taken your comments to be some sort of desire for hints, not a request for advice (which I couldn't give in any case). Hints, then FWIW - I think you have a 'good heart', and that that matters a lot more than most of us suppose. You seem often surprised when some next homo-sap behaves like an asshole (!) I believe that's an asset overall; never mind pop-psych 'explanations' - I don't. I know of people who had body complaints ~ to some you've mentioned; also some with some mental glitches ditto. A few managed complete symptom-free health via not mere 'diet' (as in, in Murica: Lose Weight yada yada) but in improved nutrition and with herbologist advice re certain compounds that seem to match certain symptoms. Even acupuncture has been an adjunct. These have worked for some. That's all I 'know'. If you are feeling as rotten as ever, and you've exhausted the PDR rote list (Phys. Desk Ref.) of serial remedies - it remains possible that these other approaches to the whole idea of body/mind health could prove (shockingly! effective - as one observed). You'd have to make time and pay actual attention for any serious trial. 'Attention' is another very large idea, etc. You can't (apparently) drop your body off for service, with mind on vacation. I guess they are connected somehow (?) Of course if you have some std. med coverage and 0-coverage beyond AMA-Brand? this might seem inconvenient. But maybe you have at least the time to investigate, currently - pretty free. Generally - if paying own bills? - 'alternate' just Can't approach cost of a $50 aspirin in a hospital! Y'know? [advice] If all else fails: flip coin about deciding.?. to look at something different, unfamiliar. Or not bothering. [/advice] Luck, Ashton Sometimes Norm, ya gotta point yer BSA at Snotty Hill and gas it in 2nd! with feet solidly on the pegs.. May not know how ya got over the clay dog-leg - but it feels Great at the top!
Post #25,886 by nking 1/26/02 3:05:56 PM Reply	My comment on your comment Yes I agree that there are things in the USA that make us sick, depressed, and stressed out. Too bad we cannot sue our employers for stressing us out, and making us depressed. If I could, I may be able to get some serious cash for them making my illnesses worse. I do have a good heart, but people take advantage of me when they learn that. Then some backstab me, or make things hard for me, because they know I have a good heart and they are not as good hearted as me. I am not sure why, but this happens almost everywhere. Like you called them, Assholes. I call them jerks and jerkettes. They are at every workplace. If they cannot find something bad to say about me, they make something up. They are the ones starting hurtful rumors, and when management believes those rumors even if there is no evidence or proof that they are true, then I get the shaft. it seems to have happened to my previous job. Those are the type of people I'd like to see tossed into that firery place in the afterlife. Or get reincarnated as a rat or fly. I've tried many things to treat my depression, but they have all failed. Meditation, Yoga, getting a hobby, exercise, doing a Stewart Smalley, taking a vacation, etc. Maybe my depression is deeper than all of that? "Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Post #25,461 by marlowe 1/24/02 11:39:23 AM Reply	Hell on earth It's often said that Heaven and Hell are not places, but states of being, and that they both begin in this life. Which, if true, implies that suicide doesn't really accomplish anything but to foreclose one's options. I've known a few people that genuinely seem to be in Heaven, and a great many that are unmistakably in Hell. As long as we're alive, we have consciousness and free will. We can perhaps do something about where we are. "Where there's life, there's hope." Make a radical change in your approach to life. No, not thinking happy thoughts or anything so meaningless. Just do things entirely differently. A different career. A different personality. A different diet (remember, there's a biochemical component to depression.) A creative outlet. A different ranking of priorities. When something doesn't work, you try something else. Anything else. Except booze or drugs. That'll mess you up every time. In a way, I'm advocating a scientific approach to life. Or at least an empirical one. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #25,463 by marlowe 1/24/02 11:47:53 AM Reply	People finding fault? Either they have a point, or they don't. A little reasoned analysis of the facts will settle that. If they have a point, address the fault as best you can, and get on with life. If they don't have a point, tell them off. If that doesn't make them relent, blow them off. They're not your friends, and they don't have your best interests at heart. To the extent that it is not in your power to correct a fault, forgive yourself and move on. There's no law that says you have to be superhuman. Never let your self regard be held hostage to anything except the truth. Truth is often painful, but it's rarely malicious. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #25,629 by nking 1/24/02 7:39:49 PM Reply	So who is perfect anyway? I think it is more of the later, or that they don't really have a point and are making false accusations. Or maybe I have faults that I can't see? But anyway hardly anyone else can admit to being at fault themselves, yet blame me for all sorts of things. It makes me feel bad when they do this. "Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Post #25,690 by marlowe 1/25/02 9:29:28 AM Reply	Stand your ground. If they're doing this, they have no right, and you don't have to take it. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #25,240 by hnick 1/23/02 7:43:20 AM Reply	There are alternative views... If you must obsess about death, you might consider R.L. Stevenson's view. Inevitable is not necessarily terrible :-) Regards, Hugh p.s. Requiem ~by Robert Louis Stevenson Under the wide and starry sky, Dig the grave and let me lie. Glad did I live and gladly die, And I lay me down with a will. This be the verse you grave for me: Here he lies where he longed to be; Home, is the sailor, home from the sea, And the hunter home from the hill.
Post #25,252 by boxley 1/23/02 9:51:33 AM Reply	If you are a believer reread Job a promise was made that you cannot be allowed to suffer more than you can bear. If you think your suffering is too much now take a lighter start the flame stick you hand in it and leave it there. Do that for infinity, then your suffering WOULD be too much, wouldnt it? By removing yourself prematurely you are passing the suffering you dont want to do to your wife and child for them to do it for you. Selfish. thanx, bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #25,260 by Steve Lowe 1/23/02 10:55:07 AM Reply	Seconded On the read suggestion, and the point. ----- Steve
Post #25,412 by nking 1/24/02 12:08:18 AM Reply	But even Job had his suffering end and then he got a new family and new stuff. I am still with my suffering for over 30 years now. When will it end? Hand in the flame, try having your brain/mind in the flame for over 30 years with no relief in sight, that is about the way I feel magnified by infinity squared. If there ever is a place like Hell, I cannot imagine it being any much worse than the way it already is here in Earth. Like I said, I feel like I cannot handle it anymore. Each time I feel this way I end up in a hospital. I read job, but I do not think that the Devil keeps his word to not put more stuff on us than we can handle. If you recall it was the Devil that tourtured Job, and God just said "Do what you will, but don't kill him". "Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Post #25,456 by marlowe 1/24/02 11:16:02 AM Reply	Wow, is this thread off topic or what? Arguably, it began off topic. Anyway, I've read Job more than once, and I distinctly remember that God didn't promise Job anything. God did bless him in the end, but it had nothing to do with any deal. There was no quid pro quo. This is an important distinction. The book of Job does not advocate making a deal with God. Quite the opposite. It mentions the idea only to refute it with extreme prejudice. Another point: Job was blessed only after he 1) came to comprehend God's majesty and 2) prayed for his friends to be forgiven for their misguided philosophising. The blessings came after Job was able to see beyond his own situation, and glimpse, however imperfectly, the larger picture. He included others in his sphere of consideration. And my reply to Buddha is this: life is indeed suffering, but not all suffering is bad in itself. Suffering can be a way to learn. Getting rid of all attachments would end suffering, only inasmuch as it amounts to a kind of death. Life is a process. Process implies direction. Direction, if one is conscious of it, amounts to attachment. If you don't have motivation, you don't move. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.

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