Post #189,345
1/7/05 7:09:23 PM
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The opposites attract
Here is another luminary that thinks that it's not Gov't money to give:
"The United States government... should not give any money to help the tsunami victims. Why? Because the money is not the government's to give. Every cent the government spends comes from taxation. Every dollar the government hands out as foreign aid has to be extorted from an American taxpayer first."
[link|http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/h/h-misc/holcberg123004.htm|David Holcberg], a research associate at the Ayn Rand Institute.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #189,364
1/7/05 9:11:40 PM
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The. Ayn. Rand. Institute. !.?.!.
Holy Shit.. I betcha these guys n'gals pack Glocks AND Attack Dobermans patrol the aisles between cells.
OTOH, I just can't summon the work-assignment to the neurons to parse stuff such as [link|http://rous.redbarn.org/objectivism/Writing/DamianMoskovitz/open-letter-to-ari.html| this] anytime soon.
Atlas Shrugged,
causing a coronary
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Post #189,384
1/8/05 1:40:28 AM
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It's a point, Ash.
Taxes are collected for specific purposes, after all.
Now, providing relief in a timely and organized manner without use of government assets might be difficult, or even impossible, but if you assume 'the government' is separate from the will of the people, it's quite right. And charity and relief OUGHT to come primarily from non-goverment sources wherever possible.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #189,397
1/8/05 10:22:22 AM
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Really?
Taxes are collected for specific purposes, after all.Really? [link|http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf/con027.pdf|16th Amendment Commentary] (.pdf): The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. It doesn't say that the income tax is for a specific purpose. Some taxes are collected, or claimed to be collected, for specific purposes (e.g. FICA). Many are not (e.g. income tax). And charity and relief OUGHT to come primarily from non-goverment sources wherever possible.In an ideal world, sure. But the world's not ideal. But the AnyRandian fellow is [link|http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/h/h-misc/holcberg123004.htm|arguing] that the government has no right to transfer wealth from person to person. He's wrong about that, IMO. In short, he's saying no charity should come from the U.S. government. He's also wrong when he says: Every cent the government spends comes from taxation. That can trivially be shown to be wrong. The U.S. Government owns many patents that have been licensed to private companies. Those licenses generate income for the U.S. government - income that is not a tax. [link|http://www.dod.mil/comptroller/defbudget/fy2004/budget_justification/pdfs/rdtande/OSD_RDTE/Budget_Activity_3/34_0603942__R2a__Feb_2003.pdf|E.g.] (.pdf): Program Plans \ufffd FY 2004 Through FY 2005:\n FY 2002 FY2003 FY 2004 FY 2005\nMarketing of DoD Technologies N/A N/A 1.08 1.08
FY 2004: Undertake active marketing of DoD-developed technologies to United States companies to establish Patent License Agreements to commercialize these technologies for both civilian and military applications. The multiple objectives of this technology marketing activity are: (1) to accelerate the transition of DoD-developed technologies to the warfighter; (2) to lower the cost of DoD technology acquisition by developing a larger commercial market for dual-use technologies; (3) to provide a return of revenue to DoD labs from commercial spin-off of DoD-developed technologies; and (4) to fulfill DoD\ufffds Congressionally mandated technology transfer directives ($1.08 million).
I haven't been able to find numbers on total U.S. Government income from patent royalties, CRDA agreements and the like, but I'm sure it's at least in the millions of dollars. All of the U.S. government income isn't from taxes, though it's true that much of it is. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #189,399
1/8/05 10:25:32 AM
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specific purposes are described in the constitution
note that foreign aid as such is a subset of foreign policy entirely within the purview of the executive branch. Although the 16yh ammendment doesnt annotate the spending of such collected taxes the rest of the constitution cleary earmarks where it can be spent and also where it cannot be spent.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,403
1/8/05 10:37:57 AM
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Maybe I'm dense. I don't see it in Article 1, Section 8.
[link|http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8|U.S. Constitution]: Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; Seems pretty general (as opposed to specific) to me. Something else, off-topic, just struck me: [...]
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; I guess that means that the Air Force is unconstituional. ;-j Cheers, Scott.
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Post #189,404
1/8/05 11:07:14 AM
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look further up :-)
He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments. aid as such is defined as a treaty, the president can give aid but only to the limits monetarily that congress approves. treaty 1. 1. A formal agreement between two or more states, as in reference to terms of peace or trade. 2. The document in which such an agreement is set down. 2. A contract or agreement. 3. Obsolete. 1. Negotiation for the purpose of reaching an agreement. 2. An entreaty. 3.2 fits nicely regards, daemon that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,409
1/8/05 12:16:30 PM
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We're talking about slightly different things.
I agree that the Constitution gives the Executive power over foreign affairs, subject to the funding constraints and other legal constraints imposed by Congress. As such, the President has the power to direct funds for humanitarian relief.
My quibble was that the Constitution doesn't say specifically that taxes may be raised to fund roads or ports or research or ..., but instead talks about generalities ("provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States.")
AFAIK, much of our taxation (sales, income, property) is the same way, with few taxes dedicated to a specific purpose. And even in those cases where the funding is supposed to be dedicated toward a specific purpose (e.g. gas taxes to the Highway Trust Fund; FICA), those funds are quite often borrowed or tranferred to the general fund for the total budget.
I'll bow out now.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #189,442
1/9/05 12:24:04 AM
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reason for that
tax revenues should almost never be designated. Lets make this personal, you dedicate a 100 allocation of your personal budget to house payments, car payments, credit card payments food utilities gas (exact amounts) and the price of gas rises 50 cents a gallon. If you have automated payments from your bank enabled the cost increase in gas will hi your electric bill, you need to make higher payments to gas and now you are standing in a bread line. To allocate funds quickly due to changing circumstances you need to have a fluid allocation budget. This applies to government spending. X amount to foreign aid, leave the details to the executive branch, if theyt need more than allocated get a general buy in by congress./ This appears to be working as designed.
rigidity is not a good thing except in porno movies :-)
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,406
1/8/05 11:09:37 AM
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And Tsunami relief is what part of
the Defence and general Welfare of the United States? It does seem quite specific enough to me. How does tsunami relief fit in here?
Unless you decide that politics=defence, of course. In which case our politicians are all soldiers.
Believe it or not, I am NOT against our government actng here. Our government is meant to be 'of the people', after all. This is something I believe the vast majority of the US populace supports.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #189,407
1/8/05 11:30:36 AM
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the same reason gunboats went up the yellow river
to promote the general welfare by foriegn policy, policy either good or bad is allowed and directed by the executive branch.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #190,120
1/13/05 7:12:42 PM
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Methinks you goofed.
In which case our politicians are all soldiers. Can't be, since they all evaded the draft.... jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #189,430
1/8/05 7:19:56 PM
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Blah...strict constitutionalists
are only strict constitutionalists when it suits them.
I note with humor that the Ayn Rand corp. didn't say squat about the bailout of the airlines after 9/11. (Why is my tax dollars going to support United again?)
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Post #189,432
1/8/05 8:57:05 PM
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*grin* Another point.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #189,454
1/9/05 10:57:33 AM
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So you'd rather Halliburton get it than the tsunami victims?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #189,459
1/9/05 11:15:11 AM
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naw, raytheon, what are the vics gonna spend it on, food?
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,471
1/9/05 12:21:25 PM
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*sigh* All I said was that he had a point re:
using tax revenue for humanitarian aid.
Not that I'd prefer that the US didn't give it.
Further, I believe that the overwhelming majority of the US wants to give this aid. Since the funds ostensibly belong to the people, using it for aid is OK (at least from a moral standpoint).
What I want is for the US to be fiscally responsible, that's all. I am NOT - repeat: NOT - an extremist like David Holcberg.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #189,487
1/9/05 1:57:12 PM
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Well, he says that Govt has no right to spend taxes
and you say that Govt has no right to spend money it borrowed. In his case, the money should go back to the taxpayers, in your case, (I guess) to the bondholders. Right?
I do know that I built a strawman. I do know that you and Ayn Rand Institute are worlds apart. But is it not funny when such a different premises bring different peope to (outwardly) similar conclusions?
There is one premise that you folks share, though. Both you and Rand fans think that human nature is, in essense, good. Yours and theirs definitions of "good" may differ, but the premises do sound the same.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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