As I thought: No proof.

Post #188,611 by CRConrad 12/30/04 6:51:06 PM Reply	As I thought: No proof. Poor Beep does his best to defend what he FEELS is true, what he thinks MUST be true... but what he apparently just CAN'T prove that it actually IS true (which may be because quite possibly it really ISN'T true): [link\|http://www.usaid.gov/fani/ch06/usassistance.htm\|http://www.usaid.gov.../usassistance.htm] Seems more like an apologia for having the nation's responsibility taken over by (or, "foisted off on"?) "faith-based organizations" than anything else. (Where WAS that table they talked about? I never saw a link to it.) More than anyone else. Hey, what happened to "combined"??? In line or well over all as % of GDP when all sources are included. Drivel and drool; what you presented wasn't proof of that. How much of Int'l Red Cross funding is actually donations from US citizens. [link\|http://www.redcross.org/press/0,1079,0_314_,00.html\|What??? Another paltry 18 million???] Raising the total from 35 to 53 million donated and we haven't gotten beyond direct government aid and the Int'l Red Cross. Yes, pretty fucking paltry indeed -- the British Red Cross has raised 20 million pounds; the Swedish Red Cross has raised 20 million kronor; the Finnish Red Cross had, as of mid-day today, Thursday (and that was before I made my donation), raised 2 million Euros; and the German Red Cross had also raised "record sums", which admittedly is not a very specific measure.() Which all, considering that these countries are MUCH smaller than the US, is aheckofalot (a much more scientific and technically-accurate unit, I'm sure you'll all agree) more per capita. Like, rounding off rather crudely(+) to allow me to calculate this in my head, we get... We get, for the UK: ~1.5 times the money from a population ~two sevenths the size ~= five times the contribution per head; Sweden: ~one tenth the money from a population ~one thirtieth the size ~= three times the contribution per head; Finland: ~four thirtieths the money from a population ~one fifty-fourth the size ~= 7.2 times the contribution per head. Want to add in the expenses associated with the Pacific fleet that is in operation to support? No, I sure as fucking Hell don't* want to add in those expenses! Not until you SHOW us that PACFLT actually IS "in operation" more "to support" tsunami victims than to do what it always does, namely to represent America's national interests in the Pacific military / political "theater". Are YOU sure it DOES "support" anyone at all, besides itself and your budding American Empire? Where have yo got that from? How do you know that isn't just something they tell you, since it's a Godsend opportunity to make their military spending look smaller and their charitable contributions bigger at the same time? Even if it were, say, transporting evacuees from Thailand and Sri Lanka to Australia (or wherever), wouldn't that still mean that it would basically be doing what it would be doing anyway, namely steaming around on the Indian Ocean? So wouldn't the costs for fuel (and sailors' grub and all the other operating costs) be ones that you'd incur anyway, whether you happened to have any evacuees on board or not? How about the dozens of other >private< charities? Yeah, of course, nothing like that exists anywhere outside the USA... (How fucking insular are you people, really? Wouldn't surprise me one bit if some Yanks -- BeeP, who's lived in France, hopefully excluded [that's an editorial "you"] -- really believe that. Heck, it actually wouldn't even shock the crap out of me to discover that you, Bill [non-editorial pronoun use] do.) Its a bullshit argument to say we don't give proportional to our stature. When all sources are combined we give more...always have. It's at least as much of a bullshit argument to just say that you give proportional to your stature. You can say a lot of things; why should we believe you? You sure haven't SHOWN that you do, now have you? Your big trump card -- you THOUGHT -- were those 18 megabucks... Which were resoundingly trumped by at least three, possibly all four, of the four nations I happened to have heard anything about. Oh, and let's not forget; it bears repeating, what I noted at the beginning of this post: The megalomanical gibberings about being more generous than the rest of the world COMBINED have suddenly become quite conspicuous by their absence. Care to enighten us as to how and why that might have happened? () Source: Swedish television Teletext pages for all but the Finnish case, which is from [link\|http://aasia.redcross.fi/ajankohtaista/notice/?id=918\|Keräystulos jo yli kaksi miljoonaa euroa - keräys jatkuu] (+): Assuming a US population of 270 million, UK pop 60 M, SE pop 9 M, FI pop 5 M; 2 Pound Sterling = 3 U$D, 3 \ufffd = 4 U$D, 1 U$D = 11 SEK. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad]* (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #188,616 by daemon 12/30/04 7:18:55 PM Reply	couple of points (yes I know the point may be on the top of my head :-)) The EU population is more than double the US 730,894,078 [link\|http://www.internetworldstats.com/europa.htm\|http://www.internetw...ts.com/europa.htm] the poverty line due to social safety nets is higher than ours and the GNP of EU should be equal to ours so if we do in fact end up spending more than you'all at the end of the day you should be ashamed of yourselves :-) As far as faith based orgs doing the brunt of the giving its because the red cross will steal the money for other purposes (see 911 thefts) and the other major non faithed based charity in America United Way has the social policies of the canadian government which many folks here take umbrage at.(the ones that havn't moved to canada) So faith based is how we do it. When I was six feet up the asshole of the world in central america I didnt see any NGO's UN personnel or other governmental aid but I did see Medicin sans Frontiers backstopped by Jimmy Swaggerts medical mission vans. I find the governmental aid organizations dont flourish too far from a 4 star hotel and upscale dining establishments. regards, daemon that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
Post #188,633 by jake123 12/30/04 9:54:33 PM Reply	Canadian gov has given 40 million CDN so far that's around a dollar US per person. To match that, the US gov would have to chip in around 330 million, IIR(your population figures)C. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #188,660 by daemon 12/31/04 6:50:36 AM Reply	Jake the canucks per capita give more than any other nation in the world, I know that. Me own ma schleps around countless 3rd world places dropping off goodies. She has clothed whole huron reservations personally. I was pointing east not north. regards, daemon that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
Post #188,669 by CRConrad 12/31/04 9:21:06 AM Reply	You're frigging well wrong, so shaddappayoface. Man, have you people COMPLETELY forgot the concept of checking up the actual FACTS before you start gibbering?!? "I was pointing east not north" -- yeah, well, point at yourself, asshole! [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #188,670 by pwhysall 12/31/04 9:22:52 AM Reply	:-D It's good to see that fatherhood has mellowed you so, CRC. (I note that the bloody NETHERLANDS is now pledging more than the US, at $36M, as at 31/12/2004 14:22 GMT) Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #188,677 by inthane-chan 12/31/04 10:44:26 AM Reply	I'm doing my part to make up for Bush. We were planning on buying a house next year. We're still planning on buying it, but we'll have to do with a bit less for the down payment. Doctors Without Borders got our cash. Seems to be the standard for the Bush admin. - anything that's really for the people, has to come from the common man, not the wealthy elites. "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
Post #188,680 by CRConrad 12/31/04 11:48:09 AM Reply	Holy HECK, man... Kudos, big ones.
Post #188,702 by daemon 12/31/04 3:05:21 PM Reply	so the EU has given 780 million ..l.. pointed right at ya that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
Post #188,678 by jake123 12/31/04 11:29:48 AM Reply	No we don't actually it was our former PM Lester Pearson who came up with the .7% gdp goal for helping those less fortunate, and we've been falling further and further short over the years. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #188,653 by CRConrad 12/31/04 3:03:47 AM Reply	You got one thing right: where the point is at. The EU population is more than double the US 730,894,078 [link\|http://www.internetworldstats.com/europa.htm\|http://www.internetw...ts.com/europa.htm] the poverty line due to social safety nets is higher than ours I'm not too sure about that, any more... Not everywhere in the newly-enlarged EU, I wouldn't think. and the GNP of EU should be equal to ours so if we do in fact end up spending more than you'all at the end of the day you should be ashamed of yourselves :-) "if", indeed. Trust me, I'm pretty sure that -- contrary to what BeeP tried to claim as late as yesterday -- you DON'T give, in absolute terms, even close to what just the EU, combined, gives. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #188,634 by bepatient 12/30/04 9:54:47 PM Reply	OECD Look it up. Just in straight general aid, 16.3 billion US. Next closest is Japan at 8.8. Pretty close to a factor of 2. Sure, you will use the OECD multiple and say we should give 8 times more since we're "soo rich". Except that doesn't include specifically tagged disaster relief or the portion of the 250 billion that US folks give to charity each year. And no, I don't pretend that private charity exists only in the US. Nor did I see huge amounts of foreign assistance being doled out in MO during the floods or in FL after the 5th hurricane flattened the state. But we're cheap...and our [link\|http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a_qrieolIpYY&refer=us\|companies are cheap]...I guess I just have to live with that...even though we'll end up giving a billion (just gov't assistance) not counting C-130 transport and military expenses etc... Unless its cash it don't count. Whatever you say. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #188,652 by CRConrad 12/31/04 2:47:15 AM Reply	"OECD - Look it up"? Sure; what, where? BeeP continues in the same vein: Look it up. Look what up, where? Got any links to hard numbers, in stead of government propaganda? Just in straight general aid, 16.3 billion US. Next closest is Japan at 8.8. Pretty close to a factor of 2. Just like the population, IIRC, which would mean the average Japanese is just as generous as the average "we give more; always have" modest American. Sure, you will use the OECD multiple and say we should give 8 times more since we're "soo rich". I'll thank you to let me decide for myself what I'll say, thankyouverymuch... Or should I go, "Sure, you will say 'a buck from a billionaire is as good as a buck from a beggar, so we're giving just as much as anyone else!' (even though that's a much smaller proportion of what you have to give of)"? Just let me know; if you want me to, I'll be glad to put those words in your mouth for you. Except that doesn't include specifically tagged disaster relief Funny how in these mysterious numbers you keep quoting without citing the source, there's always such a lot of "But wait, there's more! If you place your order today, we'll include these six Japanese steak knives without extra cost!" for the American numbers... So, does it explicitly say (and could you tell us where it does so, please?) that the numbers do include "specifically tagged disaster relief" for everyone but America, or is that just the impression you're trying to give by slippery quoting? or the portion of the 250 billion that US folks give to charity each year. Wait, is this a "portion of" [emphasis added] some "the 250 billion" that you've counted already? And that you're now trying to count again? (Otherwise, it'd be "in addition to", not a "portion of", now wouldn't it?) And are we supposed to infer from this that non-US "folks" don't give to charity each year, or WTF? And no, I don't pretend that private charity exists only in the US. Then what the fuck were the immediately preceding shenasnigans all about? Nor did I see huge amounts of foreign assistance being doled out in MO during the floods or in FL after the 5th hurricane flattened the state. Newsflash, Nimrod: It was offered, and refused. As usual. Don't blame us for your stupid pride! But we're cheap...and our [link\|http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a_qrieolIpYY&refer=us\|companies are cheap]...I guess I just have to live with that...even though we'll end up giving a billion (just gov't assistance) Let's take a look at that: Amazon.com, the world's largest Internet retailer, had collected $2.97 million as of 8 p.m. New York Time through a link on its home page that lets customers make donations to the American Red Cross. So, are you gloating about those $2.97 million BOTH under "contributions to the Red Cross" AND under "and see how generous our corporate masters are!()"? Just wondering, you see, so I'll know what to count twice and what not... not counting C-130 transport Yeah, the US are of course the only country that offer air transport, or other goods and services. (Fuck, you MADE the sign, IIRC, so I don't have to show it to you, do I...?) and military expenses etc... Uh... Didn't we just go over this; did you nod off during those paragraphs in the post you were replying to? Or did you close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears, and go "neener, neener, I can't hear you" until someone scrolled them off the screen for you? Either way, it sure looks* as if you're trying your best to pretend you didn't see it. Unless its cash it don't count. Unless it's American cash, of course, 'coz then it counts at least twice... Whatever you say. You seem a bit disappointed that I'm not just swallowing whatever you say. (): Cheap PR for Amazon and ebay, BTW: They're letting their customers* contribute, and trying to spin it as if they themselves are doing the contributing. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #188,682 by Arkadiy 12/31/04 11:58:33 AM Reply	The $35 mln figure is days old. The dimensions of the tragedy were not as obvious back then - we thought we were dealing with 50,000 dead, not 200,000. I am sure that more is coming. But it does not matter. When we give more, it will be because we were shamed into it by people like CRC. Good job, CRC. You turned a help effort into a pissing match. -- Q. I think I need to see a specialist, but my doctor insists he can handle my problem. Can a general practitioner really perform a heart transplant right in his/her office? A. Hard to say, but considering that all you're risking is the $20 co-payment, there's no harm in giving it a shot.
Post #188,697 by bepatient 12/31/04 2:16:13 PM Reply	And it will get larger... ...but it will never be enough. In straight aid the next closest gives a bit more than half...which prompts the argument "but but but compared to your gdp" And that was just a small piece of what we actually give. To which will always be shouted "show me the money". Its never enough. Never has been, never will be. Not an argument even worth having. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #188,889 by SpiceWare 1/3/05 5:13:18 PM Reply	amen Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #188,712 by ben_tilly 12/31/04 5:18:17 PM Reply	Do you have a reference for that? Nor did I see huge amounts of foreign assistance being doled out in MO during the floods or in FL after the 5th hurricane flattened the state. Newsflash, Nimrod: It was offered, and refused. As usual. Don't blame us for your stupid pride! This is an allegation that I'd be interested in knowing more about. Thanks, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #188,886 by Arkadiy 1/3/05 4:27:05 PM Reply	For the record The US Navy is now in the relief effort. [link\|http://www.navy.mil/view_photos.asp?page=1&sort_type=0&sort_row=1\|http://www.navy.mil/...type=0&sort_row=1] Took them some days to get there, I guess. -- Q. I think I need to see a specialist, but my doctor insists he can handle my problem. Can a general practitioner really perform a heart transplant right in his/her office? A. Hard to say, but considering that all you're risking is the $20 co-payment, there's no harm in giving it a shot.

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