Post #188,457
12/29/04 6:06:48 AM
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Is the US being stingy with aid to Tsunami victims?
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/27/un.tsunami/|U.N.: Tsunami damage 'unprecedented']
"...In a news conference at U.N. headquarters in New York, Egeland called for a major international response -- and went so far as to call the U.S. government and others "stingy" on foreign aid in general."
Th US is devoting less than half of what Bush is planning to spend on his own inauguration to helping people recover from one of the worst natural disasters in human history.
Of course, from Bush's reaction you wouldn't know that anything had even happened. [link|http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6763683/|Should vacationing president have spoken out?]
"...domestic criticism of Bush continued to rise. Skeptics said the initial aid sums -- as well as Bush's decision at first to remain cloistered on his Texas ranch for the Christmas holiday rather than speak in person about the tragedy -- showed scant appreciation for the magnitude of suffering and for the rescue and rebuilding work facing such nations as Sri Lanka, India, Thailand and Indonesia.
After a day of repeated inquiries from reporters about his public absence, Bush late yesterday afternoon announced plans to hold a National Security Council meeting by teleconference to discuss several issues, including the tsunami, followed by a short public statement. "
In Bush's world, if it didn't happen in America or to Americans it didn't happen.
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Post #188,473
12/29/04 11:40:24 AM
12/29/04 12:06:06 PM
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Japan and EU are gioving less than US at the moment
$30 mln each.
The $15 mln figurte was scandalous indeed.
Also, I suspect tht $35 mln is going to raise as the extent of disaster becomes clear. The State department hinted strongly at that.
(Amazon has a [link|http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/my-pay-page/PX3BEL97U9A4I/002-8904659-0237604|page ] with running total of private donations through Amazon. I did not donate there, so don't forget to check out [link|http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4248155|the usual suspects] on NPR.
It would be interesting tro see if the public will outdo the govt in the end.
--
Q. I think I need to see a specialist, but my doctor insists he can handle my problem. Can a general practitioner really perform a heart transplant right in his/her office?
A. Hard to say, but considering that all you're risking is the $20 co-payment, there's no harm in giving it a shot.
Edited by Arkadiy
Dec. 29, 2004, 12:06:06 PM EST
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Post #188,491
12/29/04 2:22:24 PM
1/1/05 9:39:53 AM
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$10.66M+ to ARCDR on Amazon.
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Post #188,492
12/29/04 2:33:09 PM
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Think of it relative to our wealth
If a beggar on the street were to donate $10 vs. Bill Gates dropping $1k - whose the stingier of the two. In approaching this "argument", it shouldn't be thought of in absolute terms. Look at the wealth in the US compared to all other western (and non-) countries. Look at how much we can afford to drop daily on the war in Iraq. Then go back and look at the $15M now $35M (which I dare say we were shamed into so quickly). We can do much(, much) better.
thanks
mx.
"I'm man enough to tell you that I can't put my finger on
exactly what my philosophy is now, but I'm flexible."
-- Malcolm X
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Post #188,505
12/29/04 4:13:48 PM
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Look at it from the point of veiw of work that needs doing
and prices for such work.
$35 mln buys a lot of stuff in those parts.
--
Q. I think I need to see a specialist, but my doctor insists he can handle my problem. Can a general practitioner really perform a heart transplant right in his/her office?
A. Hard to say, but considering that all you're risking is the $20 co-payment, there's no harm in giving it a shot.
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Post #188,545
12/30/04 6:47:53 AM
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As opposed to the lack of wealth in EU?
Too much is never enough for some.
#1 giver worldwide by huge multiples...but "compared to our economy".....
crap. We give because we can. We give more than anyone else..probably combined.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #188,547
12/30/04 7:58:41 AM
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"by huge multiples"??? Proctomathology, again?
BeeP spouts: #1 giver worldwide by huge multiples...but "compared to our economy"..... Huge multiples of what? Of your GDP? crap. We give because we can. We give more than anyone else Oh, of what anyone else gives? Prove that. probably combined. Oh, so you give "huge multiples" of what everyone else, combined, gives. Prove that.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #188,549
12/30/04 8:46:40 AM
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Re: "by huge multiples"??? Proctomathology, again?
[link|http://www.usaid.gov/fani/ch06/usassistance.htm|http://www.usaid.gov.../usassistance.htm]
More than anyone else. In line or well over all as % of GDP when all sources are included.
How much of Int'l Red Cross funding is actually donations from US citizens. [link|http://www.redcross.org/press/0,1079,0_314_,00.html|What??? Another paltry 18 million???] Raising the total from 35 to 53 million donated and we haven't gotten beyond direct government aid and the Int'l Red Cross. Want to add in the expenses associated with the Pacific fleet that is in operation to support? How about the dozens of other >private< charities?
Its a bullshit argument to say we don't give proportional to our stature. When all sources are combined we give more...always have.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #188,611
12/30/04 6:51:06 PM
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As I thought: No proof.
Poor Beep does his best to defend what he FEELS is true, what he thinks MUST be true... but what he apparently just CAN'T prove that it actually IS true (which may be because quite possibly it really ISN'T true): [link|http://www.usaid.gov/fani/ch06/usassistance.htm|http://www.usaid.gov.../usassistance.htm] Seems more like an apologia for having the nation's responsibility taken over by (or, "foisted off on"?) "faith-based organizations" than anything else. (Where WAS that table they talked about? I never saw a link to it.) More than anyone else. Hey, what happened to "combined"??? In line or well over all as % of GDP when all sources are included. Drivel and drool; what you presented wasn't proof of that. How much of Int'l Red Cross funding is actually donations from US citizens. [link|http://www.redcross.org/press/0,1079,0_314_,00.html|What??? Another paltry 18 million???] Raising the total from 35 to 53 million donated and we haven't gotten beyond direct government aid and the Int'l Red Cross. Yes, pretty fucking paltry indeed -- the British Red Cross has raised 20 million pounds; the Swedish Red Cross has raised 20 million kronor; the Finnish Red Cross had, as of mid-day today, Thursday (and that was before I made my donation), raised 2 million Euros; and the German Red Cross had also raised "record sums", which admittedly is not a very specific measure.(*) Which all, considering that these countries are MUCH smaller than the US, is aheckofalot (a much more scientific and technically-accurate unit, I'm sure you'll all agree) more per capita. Like, rounding off rather crudely(+) to allow me to calculate this in my head, we get... We get, for the UK: ~1.5 times the money from a population ~two sevenths the size ~= five times the contribution per head; Sweden: ~one tenth the money from a population ~one thirtieth the size ~= three times the contribution per head; Finland: ~four thirtieths the money from a population ~one fifty-fourth the size ~= 7.2 times the contribution per head. Want to add in the expenses associated with the Pacific fleet that is in operation to support? No, I sure as fucking Hell *don't* want to add in those expenses! Not until you SHOW us that PACFLT actually IS "in operation" more "to support" tsunami victims than to do what it always does, namely to represent America's national interests in the Pacific military / political "theater". Are YOU sure it DOES "support" anyone at all, besides itself and your budding American Empire? Where have yo got that from? How do you know that isn't just something they tell you, since it's a Godsend opportunity to make their military spending look smaller and their charitable contributions bigger at the same time? Even *if* it were, say, transporting evacuees from Thailand and Sri Lanka to Australia (or wherever), wouldn't that still mean that it would basically be doing what it would be doing anyway, namely steaming around on the Indian Ocean? So wouldn't the costs for fuel (and sailors' grub and all the other operating costs) be ones that you'd incur *anyway*, whether you happened to have any evacuees on board or not? How about the dozens of other >private< charities? Yeah, of course, nothing like that exists anywhere outside the USA... (How fucking insular are you people, really? Wouldn't surprise me one bit if some Yanks -- BeeP, who's lived in France, hopefully excluded [that's an editorial "you"] -- really believe that. Heck, it actually wouldn't even shock the crap out of me to discover that you, Bill [non-editorial pronoun use] do.) Its a bullshit argument to say we don't give proportional to our stature. When all sources are combined we give more...always have. It's at least as much of a bullshit argument to just say that you give proportional to your stature. You can say a lot of things; why should we believe you? You sure haven't SHOWN that you do, now have you? Your big trump card -- you THOUGHT -- were those 18 megabucks... Which were resoundingly trumped by at least three, possibly all four, of the four nations I happened to have heard anything about. Oh, and let's not forget; it bears repeating, what I noted at the beginning of this post: The megalomanical gibberings about being more generous than the rest of the world COMBINED have suddenly become quite conspicuous by their absence. Care to enighten us as to how and why that might have happened?
(*) Source: Swedish television Teletext pages for all but the Finnish case, which is from [link|http://aasia.redcross.fi/ajankohtaista/notice/?id=918|Keräystulos jo yli kaksi miljoonaa euroa - keräys jatkuu] (+): Assuming a US population of 270 million, UK pop 60 M, SE pop 9 M, FI pop 5 M; 2 Pound Sterling = 3 U$D, 3 \ufffd = 4 U$D, 1 U$D = 11 SEK.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #188,616
12/30/04 7:18:55 PM
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couple of points
(yes I know the point may be on the top of my head :-))
The EU population is more than double the US 730,894,078 [link|http://www.internetworldstats.com/europa.htm|http://www.internetw...ts.com/europa.htm] the poverty line due to social safety nets is higher than ours and the GNP of EU should be equal to ours so if we do in fact end up spending more than you'all at the end of the day you should be ashamed of yourselves :-)
As far as faith based orgs doing the brunt of the giving its because the red cross will steal the money for other purposes (see 911 thefts) and the other major non faithed based charity in America United Way has the social policies of the canadian government which many folks here take umbrage at.(the ones that havn't moved to canada) So faith based is how we do it. When I was six feet up the asshole of the world in central america I didnt see any NGO's UN personnel or other governmental aid but I did see Medicin sans Frontiers backstopped by Jimmy Swaggerts medical mission vans. I find the governmental aid organizations dont flourish too far from a 4 star hotel and upscale dining establishments.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #188,633
12/30/04 9:54:33 PM
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Canadian gov has given 40 million CDN so far
that's around a dollar US per person.
To match that, the US gov would have to chip in around 330 million, IIR(your population figures)C.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #188,660
12/31/04 6:50:36 AM
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Jake the canucks per capita give more than any other
nation in the world, I know that. Me own ma schleps around countless 3rd world places dropping off goodies. She has clothed whole huron reservations personally. I was pointing east not north.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #188,669
12/31/04 9:21:06 AM
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You're frigging well wrong, so shaddappayoface.
Man, have you people COMPLETELY forgot the concept of checking up the actual FACTS before you start gibbering?!?
"I was pointing east not north" -- yeah, well, point at yourself, asshole!
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #188,670
12/31/04 9:22:52 AM
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:-D
It's good to see that fatherhood has mellowed you so, CRC.
(I note that the bloody NETHERLANDS is now pledging more than the US, at $36M, as at 31/12/2004 14:22 GMT)
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #188,677
12/31/04 10:44:26 AM
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I'm doing my part to make up for Bush.
We were planning on buying a house next year. We're still planning on buying it, but we'll have to do with a bit less for the down payment. Doctors Without Borders got our cash.
Seems to be the standard for the Bush admin. - anything that's really for the people, has to come from the common man, not the wealthy elites.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #188,680
12/31/04 11:48:09 AM
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Holy HECK, man... Kudos, big ones.
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Post #188,702
12/31/04 3:05:21 PM
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so the EU has given 780 million ..l.. pointed right at ya
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #188,678
12/31/04 11:29:48 AM
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No we don't actually
it was our former PM Lester Pearson who came up with the .7% gdp goal for helping those less fortunate, and we've been falling further and further short over the years.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #188,653
12/31/04 3:03:47 AM
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You got one thing right: where the point is at.
The EU population is more than double the US 730,894,078 [link|http://www.internetworldstats.com/europa.htm|http://www.internetw...ts.com/europa.htm] the poverty line due to social safety nets is higher than ours I'm not too sure about that, any more... Not *everywhere* in the newly-enlarged EU, I wouldn't think. and the GNP of EU should be equal to ours so if we do in fact end up spending more than you'all at the end of the day you should be ashamed of yourselves :-) "if", indeed. Trust me, I'm pretty sure that -- contrary to what BeeP tried to claim as late as yesterday -- you DON'T give, in absolute terms, even close to what just the EU, combined, gives.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #188,634
12/30/04 9:54:47 PM
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OECD
Look it up.
Just in straight general aid, 16.3 billion US. Next closest is Japan at 8.8. Pretty close to a factor of 2. Sure, you will use the OECD multiple and say we should give 8 times more since we're "soo rich".
Except that doesn't include specifically tagged disaster relief or the portion of the 250 billion that US folks give to charity each year.
And no, I don't pretend that private charity exists only in the US. Nor did I see huge amounts of foreign assistance being doled out in MO during the floods or in FL after the 5th hurricane flattened the state.
But we're cheap...and our [link|http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a_qrieolIpYY&refer=us|companies are cheap]...I guess I just have to live with that...even though we'll end up giving a billion (just gov't assistance) not counting C-130 transport and military expenses etc...
Unless its cash it don't count.
Whatever you say.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #188,652
12/31/04 2:47:15 AM
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"OECD - Look it up"? Sure; what, where?
BeeP continues in the same vein: Look it up. Look what up, where? Got any links to hard numbers, in stead of government propaganda? Just in straight general aid, 16.3 billion US. Next closest is Japan at 8.8. Pretty close to a factor of 2. Just like the population, IIRC, which would mean the average Japanese is *just as generous* as the average "we give more; always have" modest American. Sure, you will use the OECD multiple and say we should give 8 times more since we're "soo rich". I'll thank you to let me decide for myself what I'll say, thankyouverymuch... Or should I go, "Sure, you will say 'a buck from a billionaire is as good as a buck from a beggar, so we're giving just as much as anyone else!' (even though that's a much smaller proportion of what you have to give of)"? Just let me know; if you want me to, I'll be glad to put those words in your mouth for you. Except that doesn't include specifically tagged disaster relief Funny how in these mysterious numbers you keep quoting without citing the source, there's always such a lot of "But wait, there's more! If you place your order today, we'll include these six Japanese steak knives without extra cost!" for the *American* numbers... So, does it explicitly say (and could you tell us *where* it does so, please?) that the numbers *do* include "specifically tagged disaster relief" for everyone *but* America, or is that just the impression you're trying to give by slippery quoting? or the portion of the 250 billion that US folks give to charity each year. Wait, is this a "portion of" [emphasis added] some " the 250 billion" that you've counted already? And that you're now trying to count again? (Otherwise, it'd be "in addition to", not a "portion of", now wouldn't it?) And are we supposed to infer from this that non-US "folks" *don't* give to charity each year, or WTF? And no, I don't pretend that private charity exists only in the US. Then what the fuck were the immediately preceding shenasnigans all about? Nor did I see huge amounts of foreign assistance being doled out in MO during the floods or in FL after the 5th hurricane flattened the state. Newsflash, Nimrod: It was offered, and refused. As usual. Don't blame *us* for *your* stupid pride! But we're cheap...and our [link|http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a_qrieolIpYY&refer=us|companies are cheap]...I guess I just have to live with that...even though we'll end up giving a billion (just gov't assistance) Let's take a look at that: Amazon.com, the world's largest Internet retailer, had collected $2.97 million as of 8 p.m. New York Time through a link on its home page that lets customers make donations to the American Red Cross. So, are you gloating about those $2.97 million BOTH under "contributions to the Red Cross" AND under "and see how generous our corporate masters are!(*)"? Just wondering, you see, so I'll know what to count twice and what not... not counting C-130 transport Yeah, the US are of course the only country that offer air transport, or other goods and services. (Fuck, you MADE the sign, IIRC, so I don't have to show it to you, do I...?) and military expenses etc... Uh... Didn't we just go over this; did you nod off during those paragraphs in the post you were replying to? Or did you close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears, and go "neener, neener, I can't hear you" until someone scrolled them off the screen for you? Either way, it sure *looks* as if you're trying your best to pretend you didn't see it. Unless its cash it don't count. Unless it's *American* cash, of course, 'coz then it counts at least twice... Whatever you say. You seem a bit disappointed that I'm not just swallowing whatever *you* say.
(*): Cheap PR for Amazon and ebay, BTW: They're letting *their customers* contribute, and trying to spin it as if they themselves are doing the contributing.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
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Post #188,682
12/31/04 11:58:33 AM
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The $35 mln figure is days old.
The dimensions of the tragedy were not as obvious back then - we thought we were dealing with 50,000 dead, not 200,000. I am sure that more is coming. But it does not matter. When we give more, it will be because we were shamed into it by people like CRC. Good job, CRC. You turned a help effort into a pissing match.
--
Q. I think I need to see a specialist, but my doctor insists he can handle my problem. Can a general practitioner really perform a heart transplant right in his/her office?
A. Hard to say, but considering that all you're risking is the $20 co-payment, there's no harm in giving it a shot.
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Post #188,697
12/31/04 2:16:13 PM
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And it will get larger...
...but it will never be enough.
In straight aid the next closest gives a bit more than half...which prompts the argument "but but but compared to your gdp"
And that was just a small piece of what we actually give.
To which will always be shouted "show me the money".
Its never enough. Never has been, never will be. Not an argument even worth having.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #188,889
1/3/05 5:13:18 PM
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amen
Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://www.spiceware.org/cgi-bin/spa.pl?album=./Artistic%20Overpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #188,712
12/31/04 5:18:17 PM
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Do you have a reference for that?
Nor did I see huge amounts of foreign assistance being doled out in MO during the floods or in FL after the 5th hurricane flattened the state.
Newsflash, Nimrod: It was offered, and refused. As usual. Don't blame *us* for *your* stupid pride!
This is an allegation that I'd be interested in knowing more about. Thanks, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #188,886
1/3/05 4:27:05 PM
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For the record
The US Navy is now in the relief effort.
[link|http://www.navy.mil/view_photos.asp?page=1&sort_type=0&sort_row=1|http://www.navy.mil/...type=0&sort_row=1]
Took them some days to get there, I guess.
--
Q. I think I need to see a specialist, but my doctor insists he can handle my problem. Can a general practitioner really perform a heart transplant right in his/her office?
A. Hard to say, but considering that all you're risking is the $20 co-payment, there's no harm in giving it a shot.
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Post #188,506
12/29/04 4:26:36 PM
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But at the time of the comment, the US only promised $15....
of course, the comment really isn't about the millions for this aid at all.
Even a little research shows that 1) that he never mentioned the US as "stingy" (really bad reporting), 2) that he's referencing aid as part of GNP
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Post #188,509
12/29/04 5:16:02 PM
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But the govt *is* the public ... innit?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #188,510
12/29/04 5:17:09 PM
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Gah, what a Soviet thing to say. Party and People Are United
--
Q. I think I need to see a specialist, but my doctor insists he can handle my problem. Can a general practitioner really perform a heart transplant right in his/her office?
A. Hard to say, but considering that all you're risking is the $20 co-payment, there's no harm in giving it a shot.
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Post #188,514
12/29/04 5:57:55 PM
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Oops, forgot about that
To someone (like you) who's seen that sentiment expressed with a straight face, the sarcasm might not have been apparent. So ...
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #188,512
12/29/04 5:20:09 PM
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well apparently Egelander
think our taxes arnt high enough, fuck him
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #188,539
12/30/04 2:51:55 AM
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NY Times: Are We Stingy? Yes
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/30/opinion/30thu2.html|Are We Stingy? Yes]
"We beg to differ. Mr. Egeland was right on target. We hope Secretary of State Colin Powell was privately embarrassed when, two days into a catastrophic disaster that hit 12 of the world's poorer countries and will cost billions of dollars to meliorate, he held a press conference to say that America, the world's richest nation, would contribute $15 million. That's less than half of what Republicans plan to spend on the Bush inaugural festivities.
The American aid figure for the current disaster is now $35 million, and we applaud Mr. Bush's turnaround. But $35 million remains a miserly drop in the bucket, and is in keeping with the pitiful amount of the United States budget that we allocate for nonmilitary foreign aid. According to a poll, most Americans believe the United States spends 24 percent of its budget on aid to poor countries; it actually spends well under a quarter of 1 percent. "
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Post #188,619
12/30/04 7:22:03 PM
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UK = $96M, US = $35M as at 31/12/04 00:22 GMT
Dunno if this takes into account the \ufffd25M ($48M) raised by UK charities.
Source: [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4136153.stm|http://news.bbc.co.u...cific/4136153.stm]
Peter
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Post #188,708
12/31/04 4:19:23 PM
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American contribution hiked to $350M as at 21:19 31/12/2004
Peter
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Post #188,711
12/31/04 5:10:49 PM
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Now we're talking.
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Post #188,713
12/31/04 5:18:30 PM
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Much better, no?
Very poor media management on the part of the US government.
It's probably cost them more than that in face.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #188,741
1/1/05 9:52:01 AM
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Japanese pledge $500M.
Peter
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[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #188,758
1/1/05 2:25:49 PM
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This whole tit for tat is mostly futile
In light of this bidding war, our local paper came up with a really sobering fact: after the earthquake that levelled Bam, close to $1B was pledged in support by ou r collective governments. In reality, only about $20M appeared on the ground. The rest just vaporized. The only entities that could be counted on to follow through were the NGOs and some more structured development organisations like UNICEF.
The expectation is that the same will happen here. Once the last tourist is evacuated, attention will wane and the pledges will be forgotten.
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Post #188,900
1/3/05 7:02:04 PM
1/3/05 7:03:06 PM
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Those darned stingy Americans
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Movies/01/03/tsunami.bullock.ap/index.html|Wait, I thought she was a merkin?!?] Actress Sandra Bullock has donated $1 million to the American Red Cross to help relief efforts in countries affected by the deadly earthquake and tsunamis in southern Asia and eastern Africa Cheap witch...she should have given 5 million instead! [image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...] If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
Edited by bepatient
Jan. 3, 2005, 07:03:06 PM EST
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Post #188,907
1/3/05 8:20:48 PM
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Or 20 ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #188,920
1/3/05 9:50:14 PM
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No need for petulance
It's true - as you claimed - that Muricans frequently rise to occasions. 9/11 made that evident, even if the disbursement made some other matters evident too. I think you also made the case well enough that, Shrub's initial number was conjured up in maybe? understandable ignorance of the scale of the disaster.
Still, Muricans are not the only ones who rise to occasions. And since we live in a capitalist-variant sort of world, Nations Do / Are Expected\ufffd to signify that they are not entirely spreadsheet-driven - by formally alloting some portion of their treasure, without needing needling.
Always shall the CPAs Count, in any case - it's what CPAs Do. It's of only passing note that some pretty non-rich countries grasped the situation quite quicker than Numbah One, (and made that 0.7% GDP metric look pretty pathetic). Now all that remains is the work and seeing if, this time: the pledges actually arrive. All around.
Who Needs a crummy old i-Book anyway! why, with a few more splints and epoxy - 98-lite can limp along just as it has...
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Post #189,028
1/4/05 4:52:04 PM
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chuckle...
you know....I do find it funny.
If it's a foreign country (or the UN) who yells, it's damn foreigners! We're the most giving people in the world.
If it's O'Reilly and 9/11-United Way.... it's hat's off to a damn good investigation job.
(I mean, really, she did give it to the Red Cross....I mean, come on....)
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Post #189,166
1/5/05 8:03:24 PM
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WTH?
With our trade imbalance and National Debt, we only have other people's money to give anyway. ;-p
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #189,167
1/5/05 8:04:01 PM
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Ha!
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Post #189,345
1/7/05 7:09:23 PM
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The opposites attract
Here is another luminary that thinks that it's not Gov't money to give:
"The United States government... should not give any money to help the tsunami victims. Why? Because the money is not the government's to give. Every cent the government spends comes from taxation. Every dollar the government hands out as foreign aid has to be extorted from an American taxpayer first."
[link|http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/h/h-misc/holcberg123004.htm|David Holcberg], a research associate at the Ayn Rand Institute.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #189,364
1/7/05 9:11:40 PM
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The. Ayn. Rand. Institute. !.?.!.
Holy Shit.. I betcha these guys n'gals pack Glocks AND Attack Dobermans patrol the aisles between cells.
OTOH, I just can't summon the work-assignment to the neurons to parse stuff such as [link|http://rous.redbarn.org/objectivism/Writing/DamianMoskovitz/open-letter-to-ari.html| this] anytime soon.
Atlas Shrugged,
causing a coronary
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Post #189,384
1/8/05 1:40:28 AM
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It's a point, Ash.
Taxes are collected for specific purposes, after all.
Now, providing relief in a timely and organized manner without use of government assets might be difficult, or even impossible, but if you assume 'the government' is separate from the will of the people, it's quite right. And charity and relief OUGHT to come primarily from non-goverment sources wherever possible.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #189,397
1/8/05 10:22:22 AM
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Really?
Taxes are collected for specific purposes, after all.Really? [link|http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf/con027.pdf|16th Amendment Commentary] (.pdf): The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. It doesn't say that the income tax is for a specific purpose. Some taxes are collected, or claimed to be collected, for specific purposes (e.g. FICA). Many are not (e.g. income tax). And charity and relief OUGHT to come primarily from non-goverment sources wherever possible.In an ideal world, sure. But the world's not ideal. But the AnyRandian fellow is [link|http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/h/h-misc/holcberg123004.htm|arguing] that the government has no right to transfer wealth from person to person. He's wrong about that, IMO. In short, he's saying no charity should come from the U.S. government. He's also wrong when he says: Every cent the government spends comes from taxation. That can trivially be shown to be wrong. The U.S. Government owns many patents that have been licensed to private companies. Those licenses generate income for the U.S. government - income that is not a tax. [link|http://www.dod.mil/comptroller/defbudget/fy2004/budget_justification/pdfs/rdtande/OSD_RDTE/Budget_Activity_3/34_0603942__R2a__Feb_2003.pdf|E.g.] (.pdf): Program Plans \ufffd FY 2004 Through FY 2005:\n FY 2002 FY2003 FY 2004 FY 2005\nMarketing of DoD Technologies N/A N/A 1.08 1.08
FY 2004: Undertake active marketing of DoD-developed technologies to United States companies to establish Patent License Agreements to commercialize these technologies for both civilian and military applications. The multiple objectives of this technology marketing activity are: (1) to accelerate the transition of DoD-developed technologies to the warfighter; (2) to lower the cost of DoD technology acquisition by developing a larger commercial market for dual-use technologies; (3) to provide a return of revenue to DoD labs from commercial spin-off of DoD-developed technologies; and (4) to fulfill DoD\ufffds Congressionally mandated technology transfer directives ($1.08 million).
I haven't been able to find numbers on total U.S. Government income from patent royalties, CRDA agreements and the like, but I'm sure it's at least in the millions of dollars. All of the U.S. government income isn't from taxes, though it's true that much of it is. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #189,399
1/8/05 10:25:32 AM
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specific purposes are described in the constitution
note that foreign aid as such is a subset of foreign policy entirely within the purview of the executive branch. Although the 16yh ammendment doesnt annotate the spending of such collected taxes the rest of the constitution cleary earmarks where it can be spent and also where it cannot be spent.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,403
1/8/05 10:37:57 AM
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Maybe I'm dense. I don't see it in Article 1, Section 8.
[link|http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8|U.S. Constitution]: Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; Seems pretty general (as opposed to specific) to me. Something else, off-topic, just struck me: [...]
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; I guess that means that the Air Force is unconstituional. ;-j Cheers, Scott.
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Post #189,404
1/8/05 11:07:14 AM
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look further up :-)
He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments. aid as such is defined as a treaty, the president can give aid but only to the limits monetarily that congress approves. treaty 1. 1. A formal agreement between two or more states, as in reference to terms of peace or trade. 2. The document in which such an agreement is set down. 2. A contract or agreement. 3. Obsolete. 1. Negotiation for the purpose of reaching an agreement. 2. An entreaty. 3.2 fits nicely regards, daemon that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,409
1/8/05 12:16:30 PM
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We're talking about slightly different things.
I agree that the Constitution gives the Executive power over foreign affairs, subject to the funding constraints and other legal constraints imposed by Congress. As such, the President has the power to direct funds for humanitarian relief.
My quibble was that the Constitution doesn't say specifically that taxes may be raised to fund roads or ports or research or ..., but instead talks about generalities ("provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States.")
AFAIK, much of our taxation (sales, income, property) is the same way, with few taxes dedicated to a specific purpose. And even in those cases where the funding is supposed to be dedicated toward a specific purpose (e.g. gas taxes to the Highway Trust Fund; FICA), those funds are quite often borrowed or tranferred to the general fund for the total budget.
I'll bow out now.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #189,442
1/9/05 12:24:04 AM
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reason for that
tax revenues should almost never be designated. Lets make this personal, you dedicate a 100 allocation of your personal budget to house payments, car payments, credit card payments food utilities gas (exact amounts) and the price of gas rises 50 cents a gallon. If you have automated payments from your bank enabled the cost increase in gas will hi your electric bill, you need to make higher payments to gas and now you are standing in a bread line. To allocate funds quickly due to changing circumstances you need to have a fluid allocation budget. This applies to government spending. X amount to foreign aid, leave the details to the executive branch, if theyt need more than allocated get a general buy in by congress./ This appears to be working as designed.
rigidity is not a good thing except in porno movies :-)
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,406
1/8/05 11:09:37 AM
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And Tsunami relief is what part of
the Defence and general Welfare of the United States? It does seem quite specific enough to me. How does tsunami relief fit in here?
Unless you decide that politics=defence, of course. In which case our politicians are all soldiers.
Believe it or not, I am NOT against our government actng here. Our government is meant to be 'of the people', after all. This is something I believe the vast majority of the US populace supports.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #189,407
1/8/05 11:30:36 AM
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the same reason gunboats went up the yellow river
to promote the general welfare by foriegn policy, policy either good or bad is allowed and directed by the executive branch.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #190,120
1/13/05 7:12:42 PM
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Methinks you goofed.
In which case our politicians are all soldiers. Can't be, since they all evaded the draft.... jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #189,430
1/8/05 7:19:56 PM
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Blah...strict constitutionalists
are only strict constitutionalists when it suits them.
I note with humor that the Ayn Rand corp. didn't say squat about the bailout of the airlines after 9/11. (Why is my tax dollars going to support United again?)
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Post #189,432
1/8/05 8:57:05 PM
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*grin* Another point.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #189,454
1/9/05 10:57:33 AM
|
So you'd rather Halliburton get it than the tsunami victims?
bcnu,
Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #189,459
1/9/05 11:15:11 AM
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naw, raytheon, what are the vics gonna spend it on, food?
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,471
1/9/05 12:21:25 PM
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*sigh* All I said was that he had a point re:
using tax revenue for humanitarian aid.
Not that I'd prefer that the US didn't give it.
Further, I believe that the overwhelming majority of the US wants to give this aid. Since the funds ostensibly belong to the people, using it for aid is OK (at least from a moral standpoint).
What I want is for the US to be fiscally responsible, that's all. I am NOT - repeat: NOT - an extremist like David Holcberg.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #189,487
1/9/05 1:57:12 PM
|
Well, he says that Govt has no right to spend taxes
and you say that Govt has no right to spend money it borrowed. In his case, the money should go back to the taxpayers, in your case, (I guess) to the bondholders. Right?
I do know that I built a strawman. I do know that you and Ayn Rand Institute are worlds apart. But is it not funny when such a different premises bring different peope to (outwardly) similar conclusions?
There is one premise that you folks share, though. Both you and Rand fans think that human nature is, in essense, good. Yours and theirs definitions of "good" may differ, but the premises do sound the same.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
|
