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New Defining the "next" constitution.
I got bored this morning, and started writing a "next-generation" bill of rights. I thought I'd throw it out here and watch it flop around like a fish on dry land. Feel free to rip it to shreds, make suggestions, additions, changes - think of it as a massive experiment.

Basic Rights


Right to survival


The ability for a person to survive, and to meet their basic needs, is a fundamental right of all people.
No taxes or excises shall be gathered on the basic needs of the people, or the resources needed to meet these basic needs, within reason.
The basic needs are food, shelter, education, and medical (physical and mental) care.

Right to self-determination


No person has the right to dictate how another person may live their life, as long as they do no harm to others. No law may be passed that restricts this right.

Right to self-expression


If a person speaks the truth, no action may be taken against them to restrain their speech.

Right to participation


No law shall be enacted that restricts the rights of the individual to participate in a truthful manner in political debate or office.

Right to a fair trial


No citizen may be denied a trial by a jury of his peers, denied access to legal counsel, nor denied right

Right to property


No person shall be denied the right to their personal property, except where it conflicts with the above listed rights.

Right to reasonable taxation


No tax may be passed, nor no benefit given, that specifically benefits or punishes one person, company, or industry.

Right to reasonable terms


No contract which denies any of the above rights can be found valid under any circumstances. Any part of a contract which is contradictory to the above rights is struck, and the rest of the contract remains in force. Contract language which

Definition of citizenship


None of the above rights can be extended to any entity which is not a natural person.
No artificial legal creations shall ever be afforded the rights of citizenship.
Nobody wins in a butter eating contest
Expand Edited by inthane-chan April 2, 2004, 04:07:40 PM EST
New "is not a living, self-aware organism" ... coma?
I know what you're going for, but the language you used is problematic.
===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
New If you've got better verbiage, I'm all ears.
That's why I threw this out here...
Nobody wins in a butter eating contest
New How about
Citizenship shall be limited to living human beings. Under no circumstances shall these rights be confered upon nor enjoyed by a company, corporation or other such legally created entity; nor shall these rights be extended to any living entitiy otehr than human beings, such as plant life or animal life.
New Artificail life? Alien life?
--

Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.

--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
New Re: Artificail life? Alien life?
NO, these cannot be citizens (which sorta, I hope, makes "making" them somewhat less enticing)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New I think granting them the rights of citizens...
...decreases the chances of them being made. Why expend effort in creating an AI/whatever if you can't own it as your personal slave?
Nobody wins in a butter eating contest
New But when they are made/found
boy, what a bonanza for slavers!
--

Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.

--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
New Re: How about.. don't forget my cats
Going out on a limb, but...

must insist that legal protections be extended to non-human animals. They are sentient beings... not our property to buy, sell, slaughter at will.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
- Mohandas Gandhi

thanks
mx.
"I'm man enough to tell you that I can't put my finger on
exactly what my philosophy is now, but I'm flexible."
-- Malcolm X
New That's a long limb, alright.
And while I agree that such is a good idea, enforcing vegetarianism in a country's constitution might be overstepping what we are capable of at this time. :D
Nobody wins in a butter eating contest
New Current legal standard is "natural person"
Already defined for various purposes. Means exactly what you want. Should have mentioned that in my earlier post.
===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
New Thanks, incorporated.
Nobody wins in a butter eating contest
New Needs clarification
Natural person extends to artificially fertilized embryos? Pre-birth fetus's? Person remains fuzzy at present and getting fuzzier as the Anti abortionists continue to push their controlling agenda - which would appear to violate Thane's article 2 except they will invoke protection of unborn persons as justification for meddling.



Java is a joke, only it's not funny.

     --Alan Lovejoy
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:40:20 AM EDT
New I have problems with your use of "truth"
My religious beliefs are blatant lies to some. Should I still be able to speak about them?
--

Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.

--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
New Freedom of religion.
As long as you state that these are your religious beliefs, you are free to say what you want, as long as you do not threaten others, or incite others to harm.

I need to come up with a better way of saying that.
Nobody wins in a butter eating contest
New Re: Defining the "next" constitution.
I think you need to incorporate a lot of the current bill of right in your list. They may not seem as important today, but to a large extent that is because the bill of rights has made it hard to abuse them.

[link|http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html|Cornell Law] is where I grabbed all the current bill of rights from. I did edit this a bit though to make it shorter, no text removed though.
Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I think this actually jumbles a couple of only partially related things into one amendment. I think religion, press (news agency) and right to assemble need to be included as seperate rights. I'm not sure about the last bit, in part because I'm not clear on what it actually covers.

Amendment II: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

This is a huge can of worms on it's own. I do think that the right to self defense should be added someplace. But the broad wording about militias is meaningless in the modern US.

Amendment III: No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Needs to be illegal, but doesn't deserve an amendment anymore.

Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Needs rewording in light of changes in the law and technology. But has to be in there someplace. You only get a little part of this right now.

Amendment V: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Like 4, the wording needs updated but the concept remains important. With the possible exception of the grand jury bit, grand juries are outdated now and serve no purpose but legal manuvering by prosecutors.

Amendment VI: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Same as 4, possibly with some additions and modifications.

Amendment VII: In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Most of that is outdated now, but the right to trial for civil matters is important.

Amendment VIII: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Needs to be said. In fact I would like to see the excessive fines section made stronger in light of some police seizure abuses.

Amendment IX: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

It is worth saying, though use of it has been very limited.

Amendment X: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Like IX, needs to be there even if it's widely ignored.

Most of the later amendments don't need to be included or are trivial changes (voting age for instance). But XV needs to be a basic entry.
Amendment XV Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Section 1 should be a right itself, and I would drop the part about race/color/servitude entirly. You might allow denial to felons, but even that would have to watched closely, as it is abused in several states.
Section 2 should be changed to being a comment on the bill of rights as a whole.

As for your overall wording, I think need to remove the word "truth" from a couple of places. Truth is far to subjective a concept to be included here. Even worse, in saying a person has freedom of speech only for truthful matters, you are opening the door for congress to legislate what is "truth".

The right to survival is rather questionable. In one sense it is too narrow, in saying only that the government may not tax such matters and at the same time too broad in that it could be easily twisted to cover other things. I think the words "within reason" are good warning sign that you need to reword that section.

There are two things I can think of that should be added. Right to privacy, which means that the government can not keep records about individuals or groups nor moniter them except as necissary for some legitimate purpose, and that the government must take all resonable measures to keep said information secret. Second, Right to personal information, which means that a person has a right to read whatever records the government is keeping about them and some resonable method of correcting errors.

Jay
New on your post right to assemble and seek redress from the gov
in the old days you would be arrested and shot for getting together with your neighbors to discuss burdensome taxes. You would also be charged with sedition and hung for attending the meeting. I like Thomas Paine who paraphrased a true patrioy fights to keep government off of the backs of the people.
thanx,
bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Good food for thought.
I like the ideas you've given me, and I'll see if I can't find a way to rephrase what I've got so far to include the bill of rights. I actually did refer to it a few times when writing this up.

On the issue of privacy, I view any attempt to regulate privacy as ultimately doomed - the only way (I believe) that we can protect our privacy is to not have any at all, but to demand the same from all others. For a more in-depth discussion, I highly recommend [link|http://www.davidbrin.com/tschp1.html|The Transparent Society] by David Brin.
Nobody wins in a butter eating contest
New Re: Defining the "next" constitution.
Right to a fair trial

No citizen may be denied a trial by a jury of his peers, denied access to legal counsel, nor denied right


That last clause ("nor denight right") is a bit...er..clumsy (read: makes no fscking sense, to me, anyway ;-) ). Care to elucidate?
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Re: Defining the "next" constitution.
Oops. Was trying to come up with some way of codifying the right for a person to reform themselves instead of viewing a "guilty" verdict as a vindictive punishment.

I have a fundamental problem with the idea of "deterrent" and "punishment" behind the prison system - most of the people who get caught these days and sent to the slammer just come out and reoffend, creating a vicious cycle. Prison should be a place of opportunity as well as punishment - a place where we reach out with every hand we've got and say "Hey, it sucks right now, but if you put a little effort in, we'll pull you up." I'm not above punishment, but you need some carrot to go with the stick.

I just can't find a good way to suggest that.
Nobody wins in a butter eating contest
New Give it a shot
Right to survival
The ability for a person to survive, and to meet their basic needs, is a fundamental right of all people.
No taxes or excises shall be gathered on the basic needs of the people, or the resources needed to meet these basic needs, within reason.
The basic needs are food, shelter, education, and medical (physical and mental) care.
No taxes means I dont have to pay for your medical care, OK. Tax on what food caviar, lobster, cognac? Education of course should not be taxed, didnt think it was taxed now.
Right to self-determination

No person has the right to dictate how another person may live their life, as long as they do no harm to others. No law may be passed that restricts this right. So smoking is allowed, good. So is drilling for oil in Alaska and building a Nuclear plant in Seattle.


Right to self-expression

If a person speaks the truth, no action may be taken against them to restrain their speech.
Right to participation

No law shall be enacted that restricts the rights of the individual to participate in a truthful manner in political debate or office.
I think the standard should be all speech whether true or not unless it causes provable harm should be allowed. Remember everyone is entitled to their own stupid opinions.

Right to a fair trial
No citizen may be denied a trial by a jury of his peers, denied access to legal counsel, nor denied right
I like what we have now better, must be able to face the accuser in open court.

Right to property
No person shall be denied the right to their personal property, except where it conflicts with the above listed rights.
so good, no licensing my heavy machine guns, I like that

Right to reasonable taxation

No tax may be passed, nor no benefit given, that specifically benefits or punishes one person, company, or industry.
YaY! no more cigarrette taxes or gasoline taxes,

Right to reasonable terms

No contract which denies any of the above rights can be found valid under any circumstances. Any part of a contract which is contradictory to the above rights is struck, and the rest of the contract remains in force. Contract language which
standard practice now, excluding clauses which are abrogated in law

Definition of citizenship

None of the above rights can be extended to any entity which is not a natural person.
No artificial legal creations shall ever be afforded the rights of citizenship.
unless born breathing on US soil should be added.

Nobody wins in a butter eating contest, except the sword swallower
thanx,
bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Another thing to consider as a source - the UDHR.
[link|http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html|Universal Declaration of Human Rights] (from 1948) at the UN.

I applaud your effort in this area. But consider your audience and the purpose of the document. Is it to limit the government? Is it to spell out universal truths? Is it to enumerate rights of the people? The document will have a different form depending on the answers to those questions. I think you're trying to cover all three at once.

A brief comment:

The ability for a person to survive, and to meet their basic needs, is a fundamental right of all people.

I don't think you mean "ability" there, I think you mean "inherent right" or similar.

The UDHR expresses it as:

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.


and

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.


and

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.


They cover a lot of the things you're addressing. :-)

The UDHR can't be enforced, so it's easy for countries to sign on to it. If it had the weight of law, then lawyers would be very busy. ;-)

The history of the Bill of Rights, and its predecessors like the [link|http://www.constitution.org/bor/vir_bor.htm|Virginia Bill of Rights] is quite interesting. It's fascinating to read the arguments of those opposed and supporting the ratification.

Cheers,
Scott.
New total disagreement on a few things
> Article 25.
>
> (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
no you have the right to puchase those items when you are in health and working, if you fail to purchase future sustenance then you have the right to go to a soup kitchen, homeless shelter and charitable clinic where available. A person who works and is frugal should not be forced to sustain a fellow worker who parties his wage away weekly with no thought for the future in the same comfort of themselves, that is stealing, see above for leaving ones personal property alone. I have no obligation to the wrecks of humanity other than a charitable one. I will decide whether and when to assist those whose ability to sustain themselves has been curtailed. You have no right to steal from me and give it to those you deem socially acceptable for state freebies.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
sorry babysit your own ass and leave mine alone. I am free not a slave and if you cannot develop a personality without the asistance of the UN then fuck off and die.

thanx,
bill

"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Re: total disagreement on a few things
You have no right to steal from me and give it to those you deem socially acceptable for state freebies.

That is the basic function of states. Everything else is simply a question of arguing over how much they can steal and what is important enough to hand out.

Jay
New that is not a basic function of states
a state function is to negotiate treaties with other states. Record keeping of who owns what to settle disputes and a collective for defence of the whole. It should have squat to do with income redistribution.
thanx,
bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New The basic function of states . . .
. . is to operate a highly profitable protection racket.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Re: that is not a basic function of states
a state function is to negotiate treaties with other states. Record keeping of who owns what to settle disputes and a collective for defence of the whole. It should have squat to do with income redistribution.

Nope, all three of those things you mention involve the government taking my money and doing things for other people with it.

There is no qualitative difference between defense and medicine that says one is a state matter and the other isn't. In the end, it's a question of what the state is better at doing then individuals or private companies.

Jay
New what the state is better doing?
Check your local VA and Indian Health Service, report back.
thanx,
bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New US doesn't do it very well
Just because the US government doesn't do it very well doesn't mean that it is never a good idea. Both Canada and much of Europe have resonably efficent systems.

And on the other side, consider the number of countries who's armies have failed when put to the test in wars.

Jay
New Actually, it is...
Preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


If you look at the preface to the whole mess, it's all there. It's just a matter of interpretation... Which is why our legal system is a hoinked up. If you don't provide for the common defense, you'll have a hell of a time ensuring domestic tranquility, establishing justice, etc...
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Confucius said it better
(Explaining various of the consequences, if Language is not correct)
. . . etc.

..the people will stand about in helpless confusion.

Then justice will go astray, hence it matters above all else that language be correct.




(Hell, you can't even WRITE a "Constitution" - if no one can imagine why you'd need one - or decipher what's in it.. if you try.)
New Not sure what your point is
I'm not sure what your point is here, but I suspect you are forgetting the context of this conversation. It's not a question what our constitution says, but rather a question of what a constitution should say.

And just so it's clear, I certainly do agree that defense is matter for the government. It's just that I also think health care is a matter that our government should cover. And I don't see any absolute difference between them that says that one must be a government matter and the other shouldn't be.

Jay
New why should government cover health care?
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Why should business 'cover' health care?
And for those not-working for a plethora of reasons:

Should there be any healthcare?
(After the local hospital is bankrupted by indigents at Emergency rates: mandated by State govt but unfunded.)

Practicing up for social Darwinism again, Box?

ie.
Screw your 6 word slogans about complex matters. Is that Geek-debate or something? We get enough of that horseshit on FOXX.
New Lets start a new thread, free medical care for all or not (new thread)
Created as new thread #150188 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=150188|Lets start a new thread, free medical care for all or not]
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Things to consider
These are some of the things I would consider when deciding if something should be run and/or managed by the government.

1. It is something that everybody needs.
For both defense and health care this is obvious.

2. It is something that need to be organized on a vast scale.
Obviously true in both cases.

3. It is not something that can be run well for profit.
More arguable, but experience shows in both cases that maximizing profit involves reducing quality of service. For mercenaries this means dragging out conflicts while minimizing actual combat. For medicine, it means forcing people to use cheaper medicine even if better ones are available and denying coverage as much as possible.

4. It is something that is better run by governments then others.
For military service this has been historical true, countries that depend too much on mercenaries end up in trouble. It's more arguable for medicine, but the experience of European countries says that at the least it can be run as well by the government as by buisness.

5. It's in the government's best interest that this be handled well.
Obvious for the military, more arguable for medicine. But I think it's in a countries long term interest to have healthy citizens.

Jay
New Have you visited a VA hospital or IHS clinic lately?
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Re: that is not a basic function of states
Take just one example, then - to see why oversimplification of the idea of a 'State' fails in 04, or any time:

KISS - never mind even 'in-State' redistribution [a real Biggie]:
"Redistribution of ("Our") wealth" - specifically in the bestowing of 'aid' upon other States on the planet: this is about bobbing and weaving in the leveraging of Our Power VS the combined Power of all others' -- so as to maintain that "5% using X% of It All". <<< THAT is the aim of Our State\ufffd, if you like Simple.

And since all States are entirely cynical in the employment of lofty phraseology and deadly euphemism - but mainly in pursuit of the above - nope, the need for bafflegab / shameless obfuscation of Obvious Intent: guarantees that such simplistic definitions of The State, as you prescribe

Fail.






Personally, I believe that no revisitation of the present US Constitution can effect 'improvement'; we must Preserve That from attacks by such as the Neoconmen / My Gramma, or see the chaos of unrestrained Vulture Capitalism destroy the entire operation, very possibly including nukes -- thus virtual termination for most.

We can't improve on the original because:
Language has been poisoned, and at an accelerating rate in past 2 decades. The poisoning is now epidemic. Judgment call whether or not Language can next -?- be revived.. from within an environment of creeping [and consequential-] dumbth. You know my guesstimate on that.

Nice word exercise, though. Helps save Language, I suppose. . .

moi
     Defining the "next" constitution. - (inthane-chan) - (37)
         "is not a living, self-aware organism" ... coma? - (drewk) - (11)
             If you've got better verbiage, I'm all ears. - (inthane-chan) - (10)
                 How about - (jbrabeck) - (6)
                     Artificail life? Alien life? -NT - (Arkadiy) - (3)
                         Re: Artificail life? Alien life? - (jb4) - (2)
                             I think granting them the rights of citizens... - (inthane-chan)
                             But when they are made/found - (Arkadiy)
                     Re: How about.. don't forget my cats - (xtensive) - (1)
                         That's a long limb, alright. - (inthane-chan)
                 Current legal standard is "natural person" - (drewk) - (2)
                     Thanks, incorporated. -NT - (inthane-chan)
                     Needs clarification - (tuberculosis)
         I have problems with your use of "truth" - (Arkadiy) - (1)
             Freedom of religion. - (inthane-chan)
         Re: Defining the "next" constitution. - (JayMehaffey) - (2)
             on your post right to assemble and seek redress from the gov - (boxley)
             Good food for thought. - (inthane-chan)
         Re: Defining the "next" constitution. - (jb4) - (1)
             Re: Defining the "next" constitution. - (inthane-chan)
         Give it a shot - (boxley)
         Another thing to consider as a source - the UDHR. - (Another Scott) - (16)
             total disagreement on a few things - (boxley) - (15)
                 Re: total disagreement on a few things - (JayMehaffey) - (14)
                     that is not a basic function of states - (boxley) - (13)
                         The basic function of states . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                         Re: that is not a basic function of states - (JayMehaffey) - (10)
                             what the state is better doing? - (boxley) - (1)
                                 US doesn't do it very well - (JayMehaffey)
                             Actually, it is... - (danreck) - (7)
                                 Confucius said it better - (Ashton)
                                 Not sure what your point is - (JayMehaffey) - (5)
                                     why should government cover health care? -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                                         Why should business 'cover' health care? - (Ashton) - (1)
                                             Lets start a new thread, free medical care for all or not (new thread) - (boxley)
                                         Things to consider - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                             Have you visited a VA hospital or IHS clinic lately? -NT - (boxley)
                         Re: that is not a basic function of states - (Ashton)

More aluminum-magnesium batons than you can shake a leg at.
302 ms