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New I might have been in a less than charitable mood.
Basically, I didn't like the tar on the brush you were wielding. I'm not over on the Fundamentalist end of the spectrum, I'm not rabidly anti-Muslim (or anti-Arab), I don't agree with the way the televangelists work and in fact don't like them calling themselves "Christian", I don't approve of certain sexual lifestyles, but I don't condone violence against such people either. About abortion I don't have an opinion and as I've already said, enforcing a religious choice is always counter-productive.

Sure, the fundamentalists are worth railing against. But a "scatter-gun" approach gets innocent bystanders, too. Current teaching in all of the churches I know is not about forcing a point of view down the victim's throat. A list of "Do-Nots" has been out of fashion for years and the jargon should be kept to a minimum when talking with those outside the church!

Can you accept that perhaps you happen to know a self-confessed Christian who also dislikes most of the things you dislike about popular "Christians"?

Wade.

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

New Way I see it, hate the sin, love the sinner.
Don't hate people for their sins, love them, but hate the sins. People can do better and become better if they want to. Nobody can stop sinning, but they can reduce the sins and try to do better later on.

Yes we are against abortion, but I don't think we should press that on everybody else.

Yes we are against terrorism, but that doesn't mean we are Anti-Arab or Anti-Muslim.

So many myths and lies about Christianity around here, makes me sick.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Yes, indeed.
As the chestnut goes.. some of my best friends.. :-)

It is as stupid to imagine that "All Christians Suck" as it would be to imagine that "All non-Christians are Saints - except they don't like that descriptive word". Obviously.

I'm sure you are correct re the modified (and mollifed) teaching of late in many denominations, the earnest revulsion of much that has been done "in His Name" in more ignorant eras.. and the general folly of that hubris which presumes that Righteousness comes via professing me-too to a certain Credo one has memorized. Much would *have* to have been toned down, for modern ears (?) But it remains in 'Scripture'.. and for (too) many: that is deemed a license to play a really sick OT-God, homo-sap version.

Fundamentalists of any stripe are a quite Other matter. I'm not at all comfortable with the fact that: rarely do I ever see a Christian actively disavowing the horrendous rantings of (here: it is often "late-night" on Tee Vee or radio) those who Will "tell you what the Bible Really Means". I see that you may Not have a C-Gestapo which 'corrects' the infirm and deranged via their own methods (fun as that sounds).

But as with errant MDs - another "service provider" - there are at least provisions for defrocking those who kill too many too quickly, via methods seen to have been deranged. No, these don't work very well (here) either - but they are at least "on the books". <<

In brief, where has been the funding for Counter- air time, from honest Christians: explaining that it is NOT nice to post hit-lists and to incite mouth-breathers to ~'Kill a Queer for Christ' ??

Silence is ever taken to be tacit acquiescence. It's a lot of trouble, some expen$e to mount a 'counter' to the veritably offensive - but such opposition could be only much more effective, were some actual Christians to stand up and say [cleaned up, natch].

"This jackal is a POS, has entirely mangled the meaning of our tenets and is spewing hatred from his own personal Hell right here in River City. You may NOT go out and kill people 'for God': Got It? Good. ..And it will take more than some Hail Marys for you to atone for your acts of shame, Oh gullible jerks!" (first draft) Seems to me this Would be "the Christian thing to do" [??]

{sigh} (Anyway, I'm sure that, had you met one Father Miller MB Sale - in another Time - we both would have concurred about a Christian speaking no less than wisdom, while also daring to debunk pure sh*t.)

Lastly, my philosophical objections to the main model doesn't cut any ice vs anyone else's. Homo saps are entitled to any bizarre drum beat they like to march to: until they cross the line into political actions, vicious actions and exhorting to same - which Are in my province to oppose - especially when they append, "God Told Me to Do It"


Y'know?



Ashton

PS - re the list of things on your 'disapproval list'

I Know whatcha mean..

Personally, I disapprove of the heard-of-hearing folks' lame 'excuse'. Obviously God wants Everyone to hear == The Same Exact Way. (Those with too little Faith just won't exercise the proper Willpower in order to behave as God intended they behave.) We must Help them to Change.

Same deal with those clods who can't carry a tune but like to paint n'stuff... Yeah they *say* they just Can't Do It, but it's just an excuse to evade listening to the hymns properly. If they really loved God: They Could Change Themselves, but - maybe with the help of some Righteous trainers: it can be just as-if they were never born (the way in fact They Were Born).

Now as to the celebrity National Figures of Greed
Who !? is *Helping* *Them* to see their Sins? No funding for this project???


...But plenty for remanufacturing queers.. better than New? Who Decides this stuff ?? Are you On that Committee? Why no action? Are Some Sins more Popular than Others -- so they get the funding for correctional efforts?

Then there's wife-beating - when She won't stay in her Place. Funding for that one? As large as the queer correction project?



Y'know?

(Any more on your short list?)
Expand Edited by Missing User 70 July 5, 2002, 05:44:08 PM EDT
     too much right shift one Nation under G_d Brandi - (boxley) - (77)
         God helped build this country - (orion) - (76)
             In case you weren't following ... - (altmann)
             Good One, N. !!______ this was a "freebie", right? - (Ashton)
             This country was founded by people . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (71)
                 ..and that's a Fact: ___Freemasons. __ Most of the Biggies. -NT - (Ashton)
                 Yes, people, but - (orion) - (63)
                     You seem quite free in speaking for God. - (Andrew Grygus) - (59)
                         Old Testament vs New Testament. - (static) - (20)
                             start a thread, Ill be there -NT - (boxley)
                             "wants creation to love him" -omnipotent, and so insecure?!? -NT - (CRConrad) - (18)
                                 Unfair! - (Ashton)
                                 "doesn't want creation to love him" -omnip, + so antisocial? -NT - (tseliot) - (16)
                                     "Omnipotence Means You Don't Have To Give A Shit" - (CRConrad) - (15)
                                         Keeper. -NT - (pwhysall)
                                         So now you're in my camp... - (tseliot) - (6)
                                             No, I'm not - *I* don't "punish" *my* ants for not loving me -NT - (CRConrad) - (5)
                                                 'Taint "love" if'n it's done in fear of consequences of Not. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                     True enough. - (tseliot) - (3)
                                                         Sorry,___ but those are Boolean options.____Again. - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                             Then I expect you to be consistent. - (tseliot) - (1)
                                                                 Fair enough. - (Ashton)
                                         I see you're perpetuating myths again. - (static) - (6)
                                             So, why do you call yourself a "Christian", if... - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                 Don't put words in my mouth, CRC. - (static) - (2)
                                                     Then *you* first refrain from doing so to *me*. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                         Post rescinded. -NT - (static)
                                             More than just that - (orion) - (1)
                                                 No need to perpetuate problems. - (Ashton)
                         People are both bad and good - (orion) - (37)
                             Fervor noted; it fails. But no, "they are not" - (Ashton) - (34)
                                 Pull your horns in, Ashton. - (static) - (4)
                                     Hmmm - seeing horns too - - (Ashton) - (3)
                                         I might have been in a less than charitable mood. - (static) - (2)
                                             Way I see it, hate the sin, love the sinner. - (orion)
                                             Yes, indeed. - (Ashton)
                                 Have not the heavens cried? - (orion) - (28)
                                     Re: Have not the heavens cried? - (Ashton) - (27)
                                         Still not me, you are still confusing me for others. - (orion) - (26)
                                             It's easy, actually. - (Ashton)
                                             Oh Ferfuxxake, learn to read bloody English, you moron! -NT - (CRConrad) - (24)
                                                 Enlighten me. - (orion) - (23)
                                                     Ashton uses an awful lot of words . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (21)
                                                         Ironic - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                             Doth the gentleman protest too much? - (Ashton)
                                                             There lies a problem - (orion) - (5)
                                                                 Re: There lies a problem - (jb4)
                                                                 God would have no problem communicating his will. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                     Brandi...how ironic! - (jb4)
                                                                     Brandi...how ironic! - (jb4) - (1)
                                                                         :) *smirk mode: on* - (Brandioch)
                                                             Sin is defined by God? - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                                                                 Sin is defined - (orion)
                                                                 "as" versus "by" - (ben_tilly)
                                                         Too lazy, but given your hint... - (jb4) - (1)
                                                             Well, that might have prvailed "beyond the pale", but . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                         There is nothing I* can say... - (static) - (7)
                                                             I have my opinions . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
                                                                 Too many words? - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                                     Perfect sense, but sounds too "esoteric". - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                                                         As A. Einstein said, - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                             Understanding vs Control - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                 Control.____Hmmm___ a seed! - (Ashton)
                                                                 Notes. - (static)
                                                     Frankly, I don't think I can. I don't believe anyone can. - (CRConrad)
                             Founding fathers - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                 OT: Unitarians - (snork)
                     Declaration vs. Constitution - (altmann)
                     The God of the Declaration is not necessarily Christian... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                         I'd approx. buy that interpretation - - (Ashton)
                 So THAT'S why... - (jb4) - (5)
                     No relationship. - (Ashton) - (4)
                         A fraternity, not a religion. - (orion) - (3)
                             Nor will you see on that site - (Ashton) - (2)
                                 OTO, baby! - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                     You aren't supposed to! - (Ashton)
             Interesting God. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                 In times of ___'things that go Bump in the night' - (Ashton)

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