Old Testament vs New Testament.

Post #44,310 by static 7/3/02 2:09:22 AM Reply	Old Testament vs New Testament. I find it impossible to accept the validity of a God who has a burning need to be worshiped, who needs priests to speak his will, and who exhibits personality traits that are all too human. Such a critter is not the "creator of all things". What about a god who just wants his creation to love him? I also find it difficult to consider as Christians people who accept the prepending of the "Old Testament" to the Christian texts. Those are not Christian documents, they were adopted as a convenience to justify an authoritarian church structure for a religion that properly has none, and to condone acts that Jesus would never have condoned. I wonder how much you realize that this is a thorny topic inside the church, too. There are whole theological libraries pontificating about why the OT is in the Bible. Ask me about this in Religion sometime. Maybe I can condense what little I have read into postable paragraphs. Wade. "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #44,328 by boxley 7/3/02 8:52:43 AM Reply	start a thread, Ill be there TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
Post #44,379 by CRConrad 7/3/02 3:01:26 PM Reply	"wants creation to love him" -omnipotent, and so insecure?!?
Post #44,399 by Ashton 7/3/02 4:20:45 PM Reply	Unfair! See... you have to Know Her rilly well, before She explains how it is that - She's So Much Like Us. Privileged communications, those.. I mean - would you read yer sister's diary out loud at a Sports bar? Oh ye of little faith; had ye the faith of a tiny mustard seed! Ashton God-PR Ltd. ..it's a living
Post #44,777 by tseliot 7/8/02 12:57:58 PM Reply	"doesn't want creation to love him" -omnip, + so antisocial? --------------------------------- Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #45,598 by CRConrad 7/15/02 7:02:46 AM Reply	"Omnipotence Means You Don't Have To Give A Shit" Or, at least, not care all that fucking much. Let's try an analogy: Ever had an ant farm? If not, please pretend you have. Now, when (or if) you realized the ants didn't love you (because, trust me, they don't) -- were you (would you be) crushed? Or did (would) you crush them? What would you call someone who smashed his ant farm, and most of the ants in it, for not "loving" him "the right way"? Someone who, when he found out his ants weren't -- aren't capable of being -- "devoted" to him as they're "supposed" to be, would then take a hammer and smash their home, and start squashing ants collectively and individually, yelling "You're supposed to LOVE me, you little fuckers!"... A psychotic, whacko, raving lunatic, is what I would call such a person. And according to Holy Scripture of (AFAIK) all three major monotheistic religions, that's exactly how their (your) god has behaved towards Man, his creation, on several occasions. And we're supposed to worship that vicious fucker?!? Spare me. Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #45,601 by pwhysall 7/15/02 7:39:53 AM Reply	Keeper. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #45,636 by tseliot 7/15/02 11:37:03 AM Reply	So now you're in my camp... Assuming God is like you more than unlike you. So is He/She/It like us or not? Can't have it both ways is my point. Trying to argue that God is outside the norm because he's outside the norm is a bit silly to me. Pick a position and stick with it. "Omnipotence Means You Don't Have To Give A Shit" Or, at least, not care all that fucking much. Boy, am I glad you are not God. I happen to believe in a God who chooses to care even though/if he doesn't have to. There is equally as much evidence that He sees us as his children, not his ant farm (a nice detail you choose to ignore in your thought experiment). Aha! you say, that makes it worse. Well, perhaps. But I'd rather be a son of God with a chance to choose (and a means to reconcile when I screw up, don't leave that bit out) than an ant fated to be crushed (NickP can disagree if he wants to on this point). Leave the analogies, CR, you should have enough experience on this board by now to know they don't hold up for long. The Biblical category of "children" is well-documented, so I don't mind using it. Show me chapter and verse on the ants if you can. I'm also having trouble finding the verse ending in "you little fuckers!"--got it handy? --------------------------------- Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #45,638 by CRConrad 7/15/02 11:39:31 AM Reply	No, I'm not - I don't "punish" my ants for not loving me
Post #45,706 by Ashton 7/15/02 7:10:41 PM Reply	'Taint "love" if'n it's done in fear of consequences of Not. I kinda liked it when this obscure Prof. of Greek history (IIRC) at UC Berkeley dispensed with the rationale of loyalty oaths in an entirely analogous way - A coerced oath is invalid on its face. (Ernst Cantorowicz (sp) - a memorable name amidst the unsung) OK Daddy, I'll kill little Billy to show how Much I Respect You (if'n ya just won't Kill Me - OK?) ummm OK? huh.. huh.. Tell Me! ya sadistic Bastard! {oops} ... {I didn't Mean That. Honest, Daddy!} Ah.. we gets so soon old, so late smart. But always so %^%& Sure!
Post #45,776 by tseliot 7/16/02 12:11:32 PM Reply	True enough. 'Taint "love" if'n it's done in fear of consequences of Not. Right. I love Him because He made a universe in which I could be more than a robot. The fact that some people would rather He didn't, doesn't change that fact. All the "sadism" hand-waving just tells me you want (or believe to exist) one of the following: 1. A universe where there is no God. 2. A universe where there is no choice. 3. A universe where there is no consequence. Choice demands boundaries, rewards, and consequences. The fact that the Biblical God bound all those factors into a contractual relationship with His people seems to be the sticking-point for you? Or is it that the consequences are irrevocable (ie - death)? Quite frankly, I wouldn't give a tinker's damn about the consequences if they weren't final, and neither would anyone else; "I'll just recant on my death-bed," right? --------------------------------- Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #45,827 by Ashton 7/16/02 9:08:31 PM Reply	Sorry,___ but those are Boolean options.____Again. The idea of a "personal + personally-Interested-in Moi! God" is, I opine: an entirely homo-sap contrivance. Pretty much a Christian one, especially in the absurd detail! of the humanoid-'personality' always assigned to God by all Christian sects. If you like Cosmic Rulez n'such (?) here is a much Older Principle, not claimed to "emanate via direct verbal transmission from a Him, Her or Other nameable Entity", but a necessary Part of any concept of there being 'higher/lower' states, actualities? of "Beingness". (Reality similarly.. is reserved for that which is 'timeless, never-changing' ie. about Something we know Zilch about 'here') Here's the Principle sort-of, since such matters Always suffer in language, with all its necessary referents to commonplace things: The Absolute is without attributes - ie NO QUALITIES may be imagined then 'assigned' to this unKnowable ____ which is beyond: 1) Quantization 2) Being / Nonbeing 3) Time (!) and all our hazy concepts within a world of merely apparent opposites and merely apparent ... 'passage of events' ie our World of Duality. 4) Any Other 'quality' homo-sap imagines and loves to project Upwards. (not limited merely to the idea of gender! but all the rest too, including human stimulus/response to emotion, "desire for worship" etc.) Thus your 3 Choices lie squarely within these Imaginations; derive from the fear we have of Not Knowing whence we came, 'when' we leave nor - what the idea of 'death' connotes. All this stuff presumes.. that I. Am. ... this body? and presumes much else. There are quite Other ways to view this-all and to allow for the UnKnowable without 'deciding' matters inexorably beyond our capacity to Know. Nothing 'wrong' with enjoying your personal choice. Simply though, whenever "one of Yours" edges over into Revealed Truth => Solely Possessed by Moi & Mine and Not.. V\ufffdtres! you will hear from Others, and hear about 'explanations' quite prior to 0 AD.. many of which are folded-in to your dogma, and claimed as revelation or Revelation. Lots of these! Clear(er)? Ashton I Am That I Am was Good! then the human-embellishment began.. As did the Corporations... corpore sano / body / etc. The ongoing Warz were inevitable. And still are. Each homo-sap ego just Must be Right-eous. We will kill to Prove our Righteousness. QED
Post #45,892 by tseliot 7/17/02 2:10:07 PM Reply	Then I expect you to be consistent. The Absolute is without attributes Next time CR snipes at God because of his "attributes" I expect you to rail at him as much as you do me. Until then, I expect you to stop talking on subjects which you feel are unknowable. --------------------------------- Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #45,910 by Ashton 7/17/02 4:19:58 PM Reply	Fair enough. And whether it's CRC or Jerry Foulwell - same deal. And I do not talk 'on' subjects which are unknowable - I talk about the frequent, one might say prevalent? imaginations that they are knowable. I believe that is an important distinction. Ashton
Post #45,727 by static 7/16/02 12:12:43 AM Reply	I see you're perpetuating myths again. Ignorant fundamentalist claptrap goes "Worship God or Burn In Hell!" - which might have been fine enough when Not Worshipping God meant Worshipping Some Other God, but now there's Not Worshipping Any God, as you keep swearing at us about. Current modern evangelical Christian thinking says "Worship God because He Loves You and wants You to have the best He can offer in this life and the next." with a PS that goes "He knows best because He made us. Savvy?" Wade. "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #45,738 by CRConrad 7/16/02 5:55:30 AM Reply	So, why do you call yourself a "Christian", if... ...you don't believe in the frigging _Bible_?!? How is this "Current modern evangelical thinking" [N.B: No "Christian" in there; it doesn't belong] anything other than "Ignorant NON-fundamentalist New-Age namby-pamby claptrap", when it ignores the very Holy Scripture it claims to be all about??? 'Coz that stuff IS in there, how ever much you try to deny it. I am not "perpetuating myths"; I'm just being uncomfortable by reminding you of your myths, the existence of which you seem to want to deny when it's convenient. Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #45,744 by static 7/16/02 7:57:26 AM Reply	Don't put words in my mouth, CRC. Nor remove the ones I did say. The song below by a [link\|http://www.paulcolmantrio.com/\|friend of mine] says all I need to say to you on this topic at this point. Wade. Dear God I don't understand What you're doing If you're real and you're in control You must see the path we're choosing And I don't understand but somehow I believe It's all in your hands Yeah but I don't believe in a God who gives More of his love to those who say they believe And I've read you're book and I think it says It's not what you say but it's how you live Dear God How your name's been used to justify treason And although it hurts me to say Sometimes the enemy's religion And I don't understand but somehow I believe It's all in your hands Yeah but I don't believe in a God who gives More of his love to those who say they believe And I've read you're book and I think it says It's not what you say but it's how you live And I don't understand but somehow I believe It's all in your hands Yeah but I don't believe in a God who gives More of his love to those who say they believe And I've read you're book and I know it says It's not what you say but it's how you live There ain't none so blind as them that won't believe.
Post #45,750 by CRConrad 7/16/02 9:08:53 AM Reply	Then you first refrain from doing so to me. Or what the fuck do you think your "perpetuating myths" post was doing?!? Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #45,841 by static 7/16/02 10:37:23 PM 7/16/02 10:43:27 PM Reply	Post rescinded. "Ah. One of the difficult questions." Edited by static July 16, 2002, 10:43:27 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #45,781 by orion 7/16/02 12:39:07 PM Reply	More than just that Worship God or burn in Hell. Well rather face judgement from God after you die, which could lead to burning in Hell. Worship God because he made us. Many are ungrateful, but God must have had a reason for making us the way we are. Worship God because he wants you to have the best in this life and the next. Well some of us, he must want to suffer? He only tests the strong, right? But most importantly, worship God because he sent his son Jesus to die for our sins so that they can be forgiven. God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. The sin keeps us away from God and gets us into trouble. When we disobey God, we sin. God sent us the Ten Commandments, the Mosaic Laws, and other things to follow like the words of Jesus. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #45,834 by Ashton 7/16/02 10:03:18 PM Reply	No need to perpetuate problems. What You choose to Believe is entirely your own affair. In fact the only time/event/situation wherein another might Care What You Believe is: When, acting upon your beliefs/Beliefs - You/Yours demonstrate a next willingness to limit My Choices about "life on this planet" (to keep it simple) via enforcing Your Beliefs into: Civil Law. (or near-equivalents in enforcing behavior other than overtly legally) Can you never Get This? Your [personal idea of a] God is not My [personal idea of a] God !! (And even If It Were, pretty-much? I hope.. I would have gained the experience and wisdom to Not impose 'Our' [personal ideas of] Beliefs upon a Third Party.) Rebutting 'Christian-persons' is not about telling You that Your Beliefs + Dogma are Wrong. It is about telling You that: You have no monopoly upon Truth, even if that is a tenet of Your! [personal idea of a] Good dogma for You to Follow\ufffd <<< ie your withholding of a next urge to proselytize: does not mean that You Don't Believe Well-enough so as to.. automatically Defend Your idea of Truth! It means only that, you acknowledge that Others live on the planet too. Until you Get This you will continue to say your homilies as-if: I and Others are Wrong / You are Right-eous. Just as with the start of every War since the First... and as Shall continue well into Tomorrow BECAUSE of this intransigent, intolerant mere-Personal-feeling of.. nothing more complex than - Mine's Bigger\ufffd (And worse: I Will Save You from Your Error! 'Patronize' derives from the very-same Father-fixation root) {sheesh}^x Ashton [just paste this after your next sermon, svp.]

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