I said it was a good speech.

Post #435,759 by mmoffitt 8/19/20 4:14:02 PM 8/19/20 4:14:02 PM Reply	I said it was a good speech. And I agree with you mostly and, as you say, I was not her audience. But I take issue with this bit from you: Have you never spoken for whatever amount of time up to that point and not mispronounced a single word? While under a high-stress presentation mode? How does that apply here? You know her speech was recorded, right? Also, she (and lest I be accused of racism or sexism or something - Bernie does this, too and it is equally appalling) consistently adds an "h" to words beginning "str". I've listened to her quite a bit over the years and I've never heard her (or Bernie) fail to pronounce "struggle" in any other way than "SHHtruggle" and it makes me want to hurl. It's lazy and extraordinarily grating. Worse, it detracts from whatever is being said. A favorite around here is to shove an "R" into "wash", as in, "I warshed my car", "I'm going down to Warshington" and so forth. Grates on my ears and makes the speaker sound like an idiot. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,765 by Ashton 8/19/20 5:07:43 PM 8/19/20 5:07:43 PM Reply	On same-page re the 'grating' but, Such Is the Case that: tribal-accents are everywhere--cf. JFK's Ivy-league/Massachusetts pronunciations: a send-^up^ of Allan Sherman, who also used this tune from Fantasia, in Hebrew argot. So let's not look too closely at Scotch-regional accénts (my namesake-Uncle had a lot of those genes). [ "I Kid!"] :-þ Still & all: unless those who Love language do not -periodically- make selves heard (and spelled!) then, the devolution of this Failed-State _accelerates ..and it hasn't far to go to hit [0] .^.. Lay On, Mac Moffitt!
Post #435,767 by Andrew Grygus 8/19/20 6:44:45 PM 8/19/20 6:44:45 PM Reply	Your're pretty sensitive for a guy who . . . . . not at all long ago was promoting barricades and armed revolution in the streets. Perhaps you eventually noticed that here, as in '30s Germany, the Communists are very much outgunned by the Fascists.
Post #435,775 by mmoffitt 8/20/20 8:45:20 AM 8/20/20 8:45:20 AM Reply	I've spent a little time studying Trotsky's last days. Even he was beginning to lose faith that the proletariat were enlightened enough to be allowed to self-govern. These days I'm finding the Leninist idea that we need "professional revolutionaries" to rule more inline with my thinking. Democracy is the disaster Socrates warned us it could become. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,770 by crazy 8/20/20 7:25:18 AM 8/20/20 7:25:18 AM Reply	Reasonable point on recording Still don't care. Southern accents used to sound stupid to me. Then I was taught by southern people and I learned better. My 1st wife had a cape cod Kennedy accent. Odd but acceptable. My current wife has a HARD CORE Kensington Philadelphia accent. And an attitude and ability to kick someone's ass at any moment. While simultaneously saving your life (she's a nurse). And hiding her intelligence until it is safe to reveal it. She's THAT smart. Don't assume intelligence based on accent. It's a stupid attitude.
Post #435,773 by mmoffitt 8/20/20 8:31:00 AM 8/20/20 8:31:00 AM Reply	Who TF does that? Don't assume intelligence based on accent. Can you tell the difference in meaning between these two sentences? (1) It makes the speaker sound like an idiot. (2) It betrays the fact that the speaker is an idiot. I said (1), not (2). As pertains your previously assumed Southern Accent == Stupid Person assumption, that was (is?) such a commonly held belief that my best friend of 40 years who has lived his entire life in the South worked very hard not to betray that he came from the South through his pronunciation. When we met in our early twenties in rural North Carolina, I could not detect even the slightest hint of a Southern drawl in any of his speech. I asked him about that and he told me that he'd made the conscious decision to remove any hint of a Southern accent at around the age of seven. He did so because at that young age he was already familiar with the commonly held belief that a Southern accent betrayed a lack of intellect. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,771 by crazy 8/20/20 7:46:49 AM 8/20/20 7:46:49 AM Reply	It's not lazy and it's only grating to ... Insert whatever word you think I'm thinking about a person who judges others based on something as simple as the regional accent they grew up with. It's pretty low on the scale but I wouldn't put it in a title and so then I just decided to b** at you a bit. It's not lazy. It's perfectly natural for that person and how their speech centers formed. They have absolutely no choice in the matter and anything to alter it is unnatural and filled with stressful effort to them. Actors do it, radio announcers do it, etc but they're paid for it. It's their life. The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain. F* you.
Post #435,783 by pwhysall 8/20/20 10:41:30 AM 8/20/20 10:41:30 AM Reply	You don't understand accents or dialect At least, you're doing a fine job of giving that impression in this thread. You will have some pronunciation tics that make you sound, by turns, weird/stupid/posh/clever/common/rural/urban. And the ironic thing is that you too will add a little bit of "h" to, say, "struggle", because only the most crystal of cut-glass BBC English speakers will say that first morpheme without a hint of "sh". So, unless you sound like you could read the news on BBC Radio 4, I would quietly back down right now, if I were you.
Post #435,784 by crazy 8/20/20 11:49:56 AM 8/20/20 11:49:56 AM Reply	Interesting comparison ie: BBC News reader I've been told I have the newsreaders accent. My accent is what broadcasting schools teach, or at least used to. I grew up in a suburb of Philadelphia in New Jersey, right over the bridge then 20 minutes.
Post #435,785 by drook 8/20/20 11:52:16 AM 8/20/20 11:52:16 AM Reply	Took a dialect class during my year as a drama major What you're talking about is called Standard American English. The closest regional dialect to it is generally Midwestern. -- Drew
Post #435,787 by pwhysall 8/20/20 12:01:37 PM 8/20/20 12:01:37 PM Reply	Many years have passed since we spoke... ...but yes, I'd concur with that.
Post #435,795 by mmoffitt 8/20/20 2:13:18 PM 8/20/20 2:13:18 PM Reply	I swear I'd not read this until moments ago. But I've a Pulitzer Prize winner on my side. There’s an oddity of spoken language that I first noticed around the beginning of the George W. Bush adminishtration, pronounced like that. It was as though the new president had issued some secret directive to pronounce str- words as shtr- words, which was particularly odd since, according to the dictionary there is no such thing as a shtr- word. (Actually, if your dictionary is thick enough, you might find exactly one: “shtreimel,” which is a wildly expensive type of fur hat that I will not make fun of inasmuch as it is commonly associated with a religion. ... My point is, no English word should be pronounced with a “shtr” sound. Yet suddenly, around 2001 or thereabouts, I began hearing politicians talk about the need for “shtrength against terrorism.” We launched “air shtrikes.” This linguistic hiccup was particularly rancid to my ears. For one thing, it sounds shtupid. But there is also a faint echo of … Hitler. In German, words beginning with str- are always pronounced shtr-. The greatest line in “Casablanca” — “Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects.” — has always been ruined for me because Captain Renault, the Nazi toady who should know better, pronounces “Strasser” like an American. ... Okay, you are thinking that I am obsessing over something trivial, which is true, and that I am very possibly deluded, which is not true. It’s a thing. It turns out that professional linguists have been discussing it passionately among themselves, in their blogs and whatnot. It is an example of something called “alveopalatal assimilation,” and though everyone agrees it is on the upswing, there is no consensus on why. It does not appear to be of regional or ethnic origin. Then my research took me somewhere I didn’t want to go. I like Bernie Sanders, but he just said the Panama free-trade agreement “is something I very shtrongly oppose.” Bernie, it turns out, is a recidivist shtr-flinger. But there is someone worse, someone whose use of shtr- is so flagrant, so crystal clear, and so consistent in her speech that it actually caught the attention of the linguists, who have declared her the worst violator of all. This happens to be someone whom most reasonable people respect and admire, a National Treasure whom I am now obliged to smear. Video is damning. Here she is in London, talking about all the “ekshtraordinary” women she has met, and her father’s “shtruggle” with illness. Here she is as a commencement speaker, discussing “shtrategic choices.” Here she is talking about people being “stopped on the shtreet” because of the color of their skin. She says “frushtrated.” She says “shtructural.” She’s incorrigible. Michelle Obama. This has me all shtressed out. Gene Weingarten agrees with me. It is not I, but you who should back down with all due haste. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,799 by drook 8/20/20 2:32:48 PM 8/20/20 2:32:48 PM Reply	Still missing the main point However she's saying it, that's a really shitty reason to criticize her speech. -- Drew
Post #435,804 by crazy 8/20/20 2:53:46 PM 8/20/20 2:53:46 PM Reply	He's made it clear He doesn't care. It's a personal annoyance issue. Someone probably spit in his face while mispronouncing the SH and he's got a deep-rooted fear of it forevermore. And now he's grabbing at random literary commentary to support his point. As if anyone gives a s***.
Post #435,807 by malraux 8/20/20 3:20:37 PM 8/20/20 3:20:37 PM Reply	Would that be... "As if anyone gives a shtrit?" Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #435,808 by mmoffitt 8/20/20 3:27:31 PM 8/20/20 3:27:31 PM Reply	s/fear/aversion. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,810 by crazy 8/20/20 3:33:57 PM 8/20/20 3:33:57 PM Reply	And the reason for the aversion is? Just trolling now, don't care. Answer only if you have dead time and don't care either.
Post #435,811 by mmoffitt 8/20/20 3:35:45 PM 8/20/20 3:35:45 PM Reply	What Weingarten said. "...no English word should be pronounced with a “shtr” sound." bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,816 by pwhysall 8/20/20 4:21:12 PM 8/20/20 4:21:12 PM Reply	Have you heard him speak? He sounds like Donald Duck, his words fall out of his face in a seemingly random jumble of syllables, he has a terrible command of metre and volume, and should join you in backing down. I'm no great public speaker, but then I'm not the one criticising Michelle Obama.
Post #435,819 by mmoffitt 8/20/20 4:55:13 PM 8/20/20 4:55:13 PM Reply	Heh. "Criticizing her." Because I said her speech was good? Are we really at the point where saying that something is good but not great is actually considered criticism? Or that, depending upon the speaker, the mispronunciation of words is not to be pointed out because that would be unfair criticism? How old are you? Did you grow up in the period where "Everyone gets a trophy"™? We had a period like that. You, too? bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,820 by crazy 8/20/20 4:58:18 PM 8/20/20 4:58:18 PM Reply	You damned with faint praise and then went on with insults.
Post #435,821 by drook 8/20/20 5:00:35 PM 8/20/20 5:00:35 PM Reply	That's not all you said I said it was a good speech. ... It's lazy and extraordinarily grating. Worse, it detracts from whatever is being said. Your observation that she has this dialect is perceptive. It's condescending and extraordinarily grating. Worse, it detracts from whatever is being said. What? I said it was perceptive? -- Drew
Post #435,835 by Ashton 8/20/20 7:18:21 PM 8/20/20 7:18:21 PM Reply	I replied to Box, below re 'Language Itself' This for you: Had you not made the connection that 'Schlurring' a familar word ..has subliminal connotations of ~"a drunk trying to speak"? Subliminal--it is Every-when--in all of Us. And it needs no internal dialogue--in event of a triggering usage--for that to excite the Emotional center.. only much later ... the intellectual i.e. A koan I've verified is: The Instinctive (say, 'center'-of-brain) is Fastest, [OUCH-stove is HOT] followed by The Emotional, also very-much faster than The intellectual, slowest: it has so-many intertwined memory-places to connect (as does the Emotional == but it does so such faster) This was not a point made by Mike, but it's My point. And I have already made clear that I Loved her presentation. I am not caviling over her affliction, just noting that it could have caused some to undervalue her assertions: without even knowing 'Why' ..a Negativity crept in. Have caught-self in just this brain-speed-bias thing, also compared it with and via others' experience of the phenom. Por moi this is as clear as, cause/effect. YMMV. Language + Elocution! are vastly more complex than say, making a fission-bomb via knowing what a couple spare neutrons can DO ... to a Civilization, forever. I wot.
Post #435,855 by mmoffitt 8/21/20 11:20:10 AM 8/21/20 11:20:10 AM Reply	IT IS NOT A DIALECT ISSUE. DIALECTS ARE TIED TO REGIONS OR GROUPS OF PEOPLE. It is simple mispronunciation. From above, "It turns out that professional linguists have been discussing it passionately among themselves, in their blogs and whatnot. It is an example of something called 'alveopalatal assimilation,' and though everyone agrees it is on the upswing, there is no consensus on why. It does not appear to be of regional or ethnic origin." You know what's lazy? Using "it's just my dialect" as an excuse for mispronunciation. HTH. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,858 by boxley 8/21/20 11:56:37 AM 8/21/20 11:56:37 AM Reply	what about frogtalking? woman rasping like a frog on purpose not regional put epidemic "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #435,860 by drook 8/21/20 12:08:52 PM 8/21/20 12:08:52 PM Reply	Vocal fry https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/61552/what-vocal-fry -- Drew
Post #435,867 by Ashton 8/21/20 3:55:22 PM 8/21/20 4:32:40 PM Reply	Thank you /thank you: a Keeper. [Ed}. Movin' pitchures w/ Sound! to boot. Nice that speech pathologists have Named the irritants--and this compact essay clarifies a bunch. What I didn't see there, though: some analysis of (what may also be an artifact of my hearing's particular frequency-graph du jour): young women whose 'fricatives' ... causes them to sound like Minnie Mouse. Impossible to be sure if It's Moi or: does anyone know what I mean /have heard this? It is as-if they are mixing a treble/falsetto into most words; producing near a bird-like Valley-speak irritation, in the jelloware. Humans! ... even their mouth noises can irritate as much as communicate, (especially when we mix in some momentary pecksniffery). PS: obviously you paid Attention in 'dialect class'. (In retrospect, I wish I'd attended such, early-on); imagine the advantage, even: in just normal debating tactics! But one must never stoop to Menace-ware pure-Nastiness re an opponent's speech impediment--advice that only such as a Menace (could not even understand). We're sometimes Lucky via his auto-destruct pig-ignorance made visible; alas--his Base feeds on it. Thus {still} may KIll Us All. I ƒeare that this IS the Damocles' Sword overhanging the entire Planet: Iggerance writ Large, en masse. :-/ Edited by Ashton Aug. 21, 2020, 04:32:40 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #435,859 by drook 8/21/20 12:07:07 PM 8/21/20 12:07:07 PM Reply	Lighten up, Francis https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialect d: a variety of language whose identity is fixed by a factor other than geography (such as social class) Can you explain why pronouncing words one way is "lazy" compared to another way? If I were to try to speak in a different dialect than my own, it would be harder. But you seem to take the position that there is a "correct" pronunciation and that anything else is not just "wrong" but "lazy". And "lazy" of course is bad and less worthy. -- Drew
Post #435,862 by crazy 8/21/20 12:48:25 PM 8/21/20 12:48:25 PM Reply	Because he needs to find fault to feel superior Feelings..... Nothing more than feelings.....
Post #435,863 by mmoffitt 8/21/20 1:59:53 PM 8/21/20 1:59:53 PM Reply	Yeah. Right. I feel proper pronunciation is important. And I reject as lazy failing to make an effort to do so. And I find it appalling that a person would rather hand wave an excuse that smacks of "you're picking on me because of my dialect" when it has fuck all to do with dialect. It is lazy to not learn to speak properly. I'm done. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,873 by Ashton 8/21/20 4:59:12 PM 8/21/20 4:59:12 PM Reply	C'mon crazy: 'Projection' is reserved /expected from the forces of The Menace, not the sentient.
Post #435,864 by mmoffitt 8/21/20 2:02:13 PM 8/21/20 2:02:13 PM Reply	Ha. Skipped the first three. Well done. a: a regional variety of language distinguished by features of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and constituting together with them a single language b: one of two or more cognate (see COGNATE entry 1 sense 3a) languages c: a variety of a language used by the members of a group bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #435,878 by drook 8/21/20 5:41:10 PM 8/21/20 5:41:10 PM Reply	Because the 4th is also true -- Drew
Post #435,813 by boxley 8/20/20 4:07:33 PM 8/20/20 4:07:33 PM Reply	Re: I swear I'd not read this until moments ago. But I've a Pulitzer Prize winner on my side. that is not a plus that cite is a great example of one hand fapping. people(s) vocabulary and pronunciation is an evolving thing. There is no purity thee and thou, I have not heard you use those in a sentence. go ahead, axe me another "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #435,831 by Ashton 8/20/20 6:32:31 PM 8/20/20 6:32:31 PM Reply	(I use 'thee and thou'; I don't confusicate Stuff with Schtuff and I still think doing-so: Sch-ucks The SOUND is--to these ears--still fucking-Grating, whoever makes that SOUND. (And no: there exists no digi-think Algorithm which Can home-in-on all causes of Irritation, 'Granularly') (Another word killed: 'Incredible'--used to mean the-exact Opposite! GRATES--wherever heard), now: incessantly.. Whittle away at Language--at your peril--ignore Confucius' concluding warning--posted here n-times way-back: Hence it matters above all else--that Language be Correct. (Say something Critical Wrongly) and today a Nuke can be Launched, followed-by ... more precisely This Day: The Menace would launch-in-a-trice; he has Zero-knowledge of what that MEANS. tl;dr: ENUNCIATE! ..and screw the stupid judgmentalism of accent-favoritism.
Post #435,833 by Another Scott 8/20/20 6:50:39 PM 8/20/20 6:50:39 PM Reply	Speaking of which... DeLong has been using thorns in most of his headlines the last couple of weeks. https://www.bradford-delong.com/ Loomis; American Fascism: þis Is þe Real Thing—Noted Hehe. Cheers, Scott.
Post #435,836 by Ashton 8/20/20 8:45:32 PM 8/22/20 12:41:47 AM Reply	Heh! never þought I Be prescient.. but feels nice ever to be a þorn ..in any Repoþ's jelloware :-) Have to hit DeLong, for good stabs at Scale&Relativity from authentic Histpries. Pity that the vox pop would be so unable to follow; it's togh realizing that, for recognizing 'perspicuit' you Are an outler Query: have you tuned in Amanpour, yet? fwiw Methinks she's channeleing Edward R. Murrow and perhaps (the best of past iconic-Commentators) ... reliably. She + truly virtuoso cohorts waste nary a syllable; her body-language reflects via intellect+emotion: and offers nuance to the Big-questions of ilk, say "just How Bad Is ___?" Menaces, local and worldwide, ever tempering her syntax to ..not pissing off an obvious-Idiot that she even implies, "you're an Idiot". aka I go there first, just to save the time of deciding which next alternates can supply more detail than an hour can. Noted also: the Replies to many a bombshell NYT blurb have offered up some incisive, discerning quotables. Sentience is where you find it (but CNN not so much). Carrion ..it ripens hourly now, becoming ever denser in that microphone-->W.H sewer effluence complex. Edited by Ashton Aug. 22, 2020, 12:41:47 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #435,844 by Another Scott 8/20/20 11:27:50 PM 8/20/20 11:27:50 PM Reply	I don't watch much TV of any sort these days. If it's on, it's usually HGTV or similar. I'll have to check her out. I know you've mentioned her interviews many times here. :-) Thanks. Cheers, Scott.
Post #435,874 by Ashton 8/21/20 5:03:57 PM 8/21/20 5:03:57 PM Reply	Just informing is all: no need to proselytize re authentic virtuosi, I wot.:-)
Post #435,830 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/20 6:23:32 PM 8/20/20 6:23:32 PM Reply	Well, are you sure this isn't actually restoration . . . . . of proper pronunciation? After all, English is a Germanic language, with some Norman (Scandinavian) bastard French tacked on. It was much more Germanic in pronunciation up through Shakespeare's time.
Post #435,834 by malraux 8/20/20 7:18:05 PM 8/20/20 7:18:05 PM Reply	English is more like Scandinavian than German Recent research thinks it's the other way around: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121127094111.htm Notably, English grammar is like the Scandinavian languages grammar, not German grammar. I have learned both Swedish and German, and Swedish was by far the easier of the two. It's basically English in structure and sound whereas German can be wildly different. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #435,838 by static 8/20/20 10:04:30 PM 8/20/20 10:04:30 PM Reply	English is a thieving language. Not surprised this has happened. https://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question41640.html Wade.
Post #435,841 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/20 11:00:40 PM 8/20/20 11:00:40 PM Reply	That has always been the way English works. If you need to express something and no English word or phrase is exact - look for an exact word or phrase in some other language (Swahili will do) and steal it. It takes on a new life as an English word or phrase. This story is probably from a Reader's Digest, 1959 or earlier, because that's about the last year I ever saw a Reader's Digest. An American tourist was traveling through Germany on a train. She sneezed loudly. A lady near her said, "Gesundheit". The American lady turned toward her and said, "Oh, you speak English!". The German lady, who did speak English, laughed and explained that "Gesundheit" is a German expression adopted into English.
Post #435,898 by Ashton 8/22/20 4:08:23 PM 8/22/20 4:08:23 PM Reply	..and that's a Keeper too; your encyclopædia Rocks and reminds of my (wayback reported) tale of the guy--in DACHAU /the town,( where I was cashing a Travelers cheque and about to visit Die Götterdämmerung Kamp) asking moi: Why does everybody hate us Germans? And yes, I did offer a conciliatory reply; on-Inspection: this was NOT an occasion for blurting out any nasty lIsticles as only a Murican thuggee wouild do /while salivating. Travel broadens ..even in despair My all-time fav Confucius Language quote was torn from a magazine (@prolly ~age 14) and I thought maybe it was a discarded Readers Disgust issue--but its tattered remains seem a bit too shiny for that odious 'condensed!-books-for non-Readers' paper quality. Argosy? maybe. (Amazing ..the idiot-details of stuff within that ∞/space of jelloware!)
Post #435,839 by Andrew Grygus 8/20/20 10:39:43 PM 8/20/20 10:39:43 PM Reply	I wrote "Germanic", not German. The Scandinavian languages are all Germanic. Finnish is Uralic, which is why it's an error to call Finland "Scandinavian". For some purposes I do lump Finland with the Scandinavian countries - under the term "Nordic". English originated from a now extinct north Germanic language. Scandinavian languages are also North Germanic, so the closeness to Swedish is not outlandish.
Post #435,880 by scoenye 8/21/20 9:28:58 PM 8/21/20 9:28:58 PM Reply	Going the other way My true native language is the Ostend dialect (no, not an accent). My official native language is Dutch. Both are closely related to German. I had to work hard for 6 years to learn (Parisian) French to the point I could maintain a basic conversation. Don't ask me to do that anywhere near the Spanish border. It is an entirely different language. I ran with English* in 2 and I have never had any issues understanding anyone in the US. The differences across the country are really minor compared to what you would run into over 20 miles in Flanders. You have to go from way North to below Arkansas before you could speak of the differences as a dialect. * That started off as the Queen's English. Not much left of that now...
Post #435,886 by Andrew Grygus 8/21/20 10:31:13 PM 8/21/20 10:31:13 PM Reply	I recall reading that the King's / Queen's English . . . . . was originally promoted as a uniform military language, so commands could be easily understood by all on the battlefield.

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