You've only just begun

Post #311,943 by crazy 7/29/09 12:13:37 PM Reply	You've only just begun Let's hear the shopping list, and please, no racist comments about how those people don't want to eat healthy or attempting to paint me as one. These are crappy places, no matter which race predominates. You'll have 2 kids with you, so don't forget your wagon. Or account for the cost of someone babysitting them since your significant other is at work in their minimum wage job, and you have no car to drop them off at your relatives.
Post #311,945 by boxley 7/29/09 12:18:55 PM Reply	let them run on the streets like everyone else does
Post #311,948 by crazy 7/29/09 12:43:24 PM Reply	See, you know this is a game that can't be won. So you prefer to spray raid on the tundra.
Post #311,951 by boxley 7/29/09 12:52:56 PM Reply	try google maps 2989 harlan dr east point georgia do some stats about economy, racial mix, stores poor people have poor ways of doing things. Really poor people get food stamps and bus passes. A lot of people at the above area are poor, no work and walk the only people I have seen dont look like they are missing many meals local parking lots have mexicans in trucks selling produce off the back cheaper than I get it in my more affluent area. Meat is a lot cheaper and helthier cuts at the korean grocers http://maps.google.c...bp=12,227.23,,0,5 has everything a neighborhood needs hookers strip joint liquor store check cashing drug sales police sub station in an ex donut shop homeless under the bridge 1/2 mile away
Post #311,955 by drook 7/29/09 1:10:10 PM Reply	Seriously? police sub station in an ex donut shop That's too good. If they did that in a movie people wouldn't believe it. -- Drew
Post #311,959 by boxley 7/29/09 1:20:14 PM Reply	rotate the street view to eastpoint pd looks suspiciously like a dunkin donuts :-)
Post #311,961 by drook 7/29/09 1:29:50 PM Reply	Where's eastpoint? Can't see it on that map. -- Drew
Post #311,964 by boxley 7/29/09 1:55:43 PM Reply	Re: Where's eastpoint? the target A is the police substation http://maps.google.c...bp=11,357.18,,0,5
Post #311,970 by drook 7/29/09 2:12:49 PM Reply	That is so awesome And by the way, your first link dropped me right in front of the nudie bar. -- Drew
Post #311,972 by boxley 7/29/09 2:13:34 PM Reply	still trying to get the hang of google maps :-)
Post #311,979 by folkert 7/29/09 3:20:03 PM 7/29/09 3:21:01 PM Reply	Ummm yeah... OK. Its your story... you tell it how you want! Plus the Cop Shack is right down the street... Edited by folkert July 29, 2009, 03:21:01 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #312,005 by beepster 7/30/09 7:28:07 AM Reply	Actually is a very good store and the cop shack in the donut shop next to the strip joint is priceless...but I wouldn't consider east point as "hood" as some of the places that crazy and I are discussing. Your point about the truck sales is more salient to the discussion, as the same thing happens in those neighborhoods. still not certain what good this "healthy list" is going to do...as one set of experience differs from another. Pick whatever you want..give me 1 week in the area and I'll be able to get it. Any area you like in pretty much the western hemisphere...and always at the same price or better. Almost certainly I will NOT be able to do it all in one place..but the concept of "one trip to the store" is a suburban one, not a city one. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #312,013 by crazy 7/30/09 8:33:55 AM Reply	The point "still not certain what good this "healthy list" is going to do...as one set of experience differs from another." is to understand your shopping requirements vs money for travel requirements vs money for childcare (or cost associated with bringing them shopping, both in actual cost plus less things you can carry) vs (I dunno, things evolve in the discussion and I might learn something). The task would simply be overwhelming to me. I've got a niece with 4 kids between the ages of 1 and 6. Her husband is gone, day and night, working, wheeling and dealing, etc. They have a single vehicle, and it's not avaiable during the day (used for work), unreliable anyway, and when the stores are open, that is when she has to go. She cooks healthy. Which takes a large effort to gather every few days. She has very limited choices locally. She packs them all up, and takes the bus. It is at least a 4 hour effort, every time, and she can only do it because the grocery store will deliver. I have no idea of the availability of this type of service to other areas, or the cost associated with it. Map that effort to a single mom with 2 kids that works a day job for crap wages. time contraints skyrocket, money availability drops, food choices drop, etc. I'd like to see your list and assumed cost. I'd try to determine the costs, weight, volume, etc, and see if it is feasible or a fantasy to accomplish the task. But I need you to tell me what you need to live on, and what you consider a reasonable price. It's a thought exercise. That's all.
Post #312,015 by boxley 7/30/09 8:39:56 AM Reply	your equation is missing a few things first cost. Anyone that poor is on foodstamps so actual price is relative. One still needs to be picky to get thru the month Dunno if 173 and jerome in the bronx is a hood but some people think so. Lots of grocery stores about the size of 711's people walk with a baby stroller and hang bags all over it people hang bags all over their kids people get it done on a regular basis
Post #312,029 by beepster 7/30/09 10:38:16 AM Reply	Considering I married a single mother from southwest (not exactly in the hood..but one or 2 blocks away...I think I'm gaining a better understanding of where you're coming from here...you are STILL assuming this is a single trip affair and/or that this delivery option is her only choice. You have to consider everything. Where does she work and what is available near there? Where does she live and what is available near there? What options does she have locally to her to keep an eye on kids if she needs to be somewhere else? Shopping is usually done in pieces...not in a single trip. Staples are bought in big trips (pasta, rice, potatoes etc). Lunchmeats, bread and milk are usually corner store items. Canned goods are big stock items, in downtown philly, for example, you make sure to coordinate your trip with someone with a big trunk and save for "can can" sales at shop rite...getting things like corn, green beans, et al for 20-25cents per can. Whats left are the perishables...which you don't buy in big trips because, in general, you can't afford spoilage. These items you tend to get either 1)during your lunch break from work (if you have one) or 2) in a quick stop on your way home from work or 3) from the various shops and options near where you live. (truck on corner, local ethnic shop (they're everywhere), washington ave (for the south philly folks)...etc. None of the above assumes any use of food stamps whatsoever...which as Box points out does take some of the price pressure off but does present some issues re: where they can be used. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #312,043 by drook 7/30/09 12:08:03 PM Reply	Remember what this was about But what they really pay is the poor neighborhood penalty. All those things you're talking about are what people do. Not because they want to, but because they have to. And it takes much more time than just running to the supermarket and getting everything at once. What you've described probably takes 8-10 hours per week if you add it all up. That's hours they can't be doing overtime to afford to move to a better neighborhood. It's hours they can't go to school to get a better job. It's hours they can't be looking at the classifieds or applying for jobs. Living in a bad neighborhood may cost less in rent, but everything else about it costs more, and takes longer. -- Drew
Post #312,045 by beepster 7/30/09 12:13:24 PM Reply	you've never lived in europe, have you its not a penalty, its not an undue use of time...its what you do and how you do it based on where you live. You, too, are approaching this from the suburban mentality that says shopping is what you do once a week at the big store on saturday or before it snows. thats simply not how its done in the city. Never has been, never will be. It doesn't take longer, its comes in much shorter bursts. Corner store is a 5 minute trip when you need a gallon...the big trip is once every couple of months...the lunch stop or stop on the way home adds 10 to 15 minutes. just because YOU have always done it one way and you assume its a better and more efficient use of your time, doesn't make it the "standard" by which these things should be judged. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #312,046 by drook 7/30/09 12:22:28 PM Reply	No I haven't I know what you're saying about how things are arranged in Europe vs. the U.S. suburban model, and I actually would prefer the European model. But most of the U.S. isn't arranged that way. Maybe cities are more like that than the suburbs are, but I've been through some bad neighborhoods in Cleveland: Hough (ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hough_Riots), East Cleveland, South Euclid. I've talked to people who live there, and talk about the "black tax". Like so many other supposedly black issues, it's actually a "poor tax". It's just that those two demographics have a pretty significant overlap. In those neighborhoods, choice is much more limited, and typically more expensive. -- Drew
Post #312,050 by beepster 7/30/09 12:41:52 PM Reply	Likely combination of good and bad Been in those areas, and some in NYC where its true that the local choices are pretty dry. There aren't that many places in Philly/Camden like that. There is also that disconnect between the reality of where you live and the expectation. We in the US did a fine job of building up the "big store" mentality, get everybody hooked and then watch it implode with the industry base in most places. East St Louis also comes to mind here. I've seen, however, those in exactly the same plight to exactly what we're being told can't at the same price or less. I've seen it done and done it myself at various points in time. Part of it could very well be that I have both experiences, that of the suburban "big trip" and that of the "get it on your way home" inner city/european model. I, like you, like the second way better...and living in a city like Philly and even camden, this is possible to do. Also possible in most areas of NYC. Its actually how I did it even when living in suburban NJ and working downtown...and I had a grocery store across the street. I had a place for meat, a place for vegetables, all at prices better than the grocery (and higher quality) and I didn't have anything go bad in the fridge. Its not more expensive. You just have to know what your doing and where. That takes local knowledge >and< flexibility..maybe when you add up the time it takes a little more..but that time is made up for in the fact that you are reducing spoilage. So, as with everything else in reality, there's probably truth on both sides of this discussion. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #312,051 by drook 7/30/09 1:02:28 PM Reply	I've always said Philly is different You can be in a relatively nice part of the city, make a wrong turn and two blocks later you're thinking, "Holy shit, I need to get out of here." There are bad neighborhoods in every city, but usually you see them coming. My experience of Philly is probably colored by the fact that some really bad areas were gentrifying when I was going there after work. (Late 80s.) There are ares in Cleveland that are trying to gentrify, like Ohio City / Tremont. My wife and I would both like to live there, but wouldn't want to raise the kids there. -- Drew

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