Companies without customers

Post #311,826 by drook 7/28/09 10:09:04 AM Reply	Companies without customers Dot-bomb mean anything to you? According to the U.S. Small Business Administration, over 50% of small businesses fail in the first year and 95% fail within the first five years. ("Are You Ready" United States Small Business Association: http://www.sba.gov/s.../areyouready.html) Whereas nearly 100% of people with increased disposable income dispose of it by buying something from ... a business. See? The money gets to businesses anyway. But it gets to the ones making things people want, not just the ones whose founders are able to secure funding. -- Drew
Post #311,838 by beepster 7/28/09 11:14:18 AM Reply	Re: Companies without customers Google, Microsoft, Apple, Dell, Berkshire Hathaway, Software Spectrum, Discovery Toys, Golden West, PC Connection, Staples, Walmart (dot dot dot) mean anything to you? All founded by one person with a vision (ie, innovation). Given the current smallness of the world, much of that financial wind will be driven away from this tax base...which takes us straight back to "killing the goose". I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #311,846 by drook 7/28/09 1:15:09 PM Reply	Re: Companies without customers You want lists? Okay ... Security Bank of Jones County Security Bank of Houston County Security Bank of Bibb County Security Bank of North Metro Security Bank of North Fulton Security Bank of Gwinnett County Waterford Village Bank Temecula Valley Bank Vineyard Bank BankFirst First Piedmont Bank Bank of Wyoming Founders Bank Millennium State Bank of Texas First National Bank of Danville Elizabeth State Bank Rock River Bank First State Bank of Winchester John Warner Bank Granted, those are all banks. But that's just the ones that have failed so far in July. How much "financial wind" are they providing? Or how about companies: Webvan Pets.com Kozmo.com Flooz.com eToys.com Boo.com MVP.com Go.com Kibu.com GovWorks.com Oh but those are all dot-coms that started (and failed) within the last decade. (Which, by the way, was what asked about.) So how about non-dot-coms? Bankruptcy Date General Motors Corporation 06/01/09 Chrysler LLC 04/30/09 Thornburg Mortgage, Inc. 05/01/09 General Growth Properties, Inc. 04/16/09 Lyondell Chemical Company 01/06/09 BankUnited Financial Corporation 05/21/09 Charter Communications, Inc. 03/27/09 R.H. Donnelley Corporation 05/28/09 AbitibiBowater Inc. 04/16/09 Nortel Networks, Inc. 01/14/09 Smurfit-Stone Container Corporation 01/26/09 Extended Stay Inc. 06/15/09 Lear Corporation 07/07/09 Visteon Corporation 05/27/09 Aleris International, Inc. 02/12/09 Spansion Inc. 03/01/09 Chemtura Corporation 03/18/09 Six Flags, Inc. 06/13/09 Masonite Corporation 03/16/09 Vineyard National Bancorp. 07/21/09 Yeah, Vineyard was also on the banks list, so I double-counted that one. But that's just the top 20 so far in 2009. So ... you gave me a list of companies that started up in the last several decades. I gave you three lists of companies that failed this decade, this year, and this month. Do I win? Or do you need more words to make a point? -- Drew
Post #311,847 by boxley 7/28/09 1:24:11 PM Reply	google, decades?
Post #311,850 by drook 7/28/09 1:50:51 PM Reply	Google not founded within last several decades? News to me -- Drew
Post #311,849 by boxley 7/28/09 1:48:52 PM Reply	depends on what you want to win in the case of everyone on your list, someone made a boatload of cash with those entities, just not the entities themselves. thanx, bill
Post #311,876 by Ashton 7/28/09 5:13:17 PM Reply	Sophistry Award: 3 tarnished-'gold' Stars, pewter epaulets The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. -- H.L. Mencken
Post #311,896 by boxley 7/28/09 10:27:03 PM Reply	Re: Sophistry Award dont want it, doesnt apply bank loses 100 dollars no it didnt, someone else is happily spending that 100 dollars, it didnt dissapear or magically vanish, losses if booked properly are gains elsewhere only a central bank can decrease the money supply maddof didnt lose peoples life savings, he just didnt return it call it a pre-death tax penalty
Post #311,878 by drook 7/28/09 5:22:42 PM Reply	And another thing ... Your argument is (or seems to be, I seem to be providing most of the words) that if we reward innovators -- or at least don't chase them away -- then they will build businesses here in the U.S. And that those companies will somehow benefit other people than just the ones who own the companies. Is that about right? Assuming that's your point, what will cause the builders of new businesses to hire locals instead of outsourcing as much as possible as soon as possible? In other words, how specifically (meaning with words and everything) does supporting/encouraging/not-chasing-away-with-taxes "innovators" help anyone else besides the innovators? (And their investors, of course.) -- Drew
Post #311,879 by beepster 7/28/09 5:38:50 PM Reply	So... your argument is that we should (or at least could) create nothing new, instead just maintain those that make things people need and >give them< money to buy it? After all, making sure we have a continuing supply of new jobs from new companies doesn't seem to be important to you...meaning they have to get their money from somewhere else. Yet I see GM and Chrysler (both make things people need) on you list of examples of failure...while on my list are companies that in the last 30 years or so have become huge employers (making sure a lot of people have money to buy a lot of things)...all started by an innovator (the type of person you tell me is not important at all..so its ok to penalize them and drive them somewhere else). This conversation is destined for far too much right shift. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #311,882 by drook 7/28/09 6:06:09 PM Reply	False polarization Did I say "create nothing new"? Nope. But you seem to think that's the implication of what I did say. So just for shits and giggles, let's do a thought experiment, based on the idea you're putting in my mouth. Let's say we just took all the money that might go to tax breaks for "innovators". All the money that goes to empowerment zones. All the incentives thrown at companies to create (or keep) facilities in a specific state or county. All the tax breaks and, what the hell, even the direct subsidies that are given to companies in the U.S. Take all that money, and instead distribute it on a sliding scale, with the most money going to the poorest people. This is very very far from anything I've actually said, but let's just play with the idea. What might happen? Probably, they'd spend a whole bunch of money. Probably buy lots of cars, TVs, appliances, home improvements, maybe even whole houses ... you know, the consumer economy. And you'd probably need a whole bunch of truckers to move all that stuff around. And tradesmen to do the labor, and repairs. And food service workers to feed them all their lunch while they're out at work, instead of home collecting unemployment. And maybe, with all that money suddenly floating around, you'd even find some people who already have a bunch of money deciding to spend it creating businesses, here in the U.S., to supply whatever it is people decide they want. Innovation and new product development, particularly the kind that creates whole new markets, does best in a market with excess disposable income sloshing around, looking for something to buy. When the basics aren't met, when the electricity is being shut off and people are putting groceries on their credit cards, they're not looking for as many plasma TVs. It's the difference between a market-based economy and a centrally-planned economy. By giving further incentives to the people who are already successful, you are just increasing the likelihood that this year's winners get to plan next-year's economy. I would think an economist would get that. You know, I've used the drug trade as an example plenty of times, because it is such a perfect explanation of my point. We keep making it as hard as we can to get into the business, but people keep doing it anyway. Why? Because there's money to be made. -- Drew
Post #311,885 by beepster 7/28/09 6:26:45 PM Reply	Incentives? 70% marginal tax rate is incentive? or a "break"? compared to 0% for the lower 40%? As for your thought experiment...if we take all of that market meddling out of the tax codes we probably wouldn't need to distribute it back out and could probably use just a portion of it to buy health care policies for every man, woman and child in the country...and have a better running economy with higher employment to boot. So...I like your plan. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #311,897 by boxley 7/28/09 10:33:00 PM Reply	so we already got tax breaks for the bottom 40% they dont pay nuthin, and the rich got loopholes so they dont pay nuthin guess who that leaves, the people who are not rich and have wages get to pay the tab keep your vaseline close to hand
Post #311,900 by a6l6e6x 7/29/09 1:38:26 AM Reply	You're ignoring FICA/Medicare, of course. Alex
Post #311,905 by beepster 7/29/09 6:59:07 AM Reply	Not so much recently since folks who payed nothing were getting rebates and credits. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #311,911 by boxley 7/29/09 9:29:30 AM Reply	thats insurance not a tax as a lot of people on it tell me
Post #311,902 by crazy 7/29/09 6:46:52 AM Reply	Sure they do Sales tax in my state and in most. But what they really pay is the poor neighborhood penalty. Walk or use public, and either means minimal carrying. Have you ever seen women with 4 kids use a bus to go on a food shopping trip? Stores are far more expensive, less choices. In the poorest of neighborhoods, expect to pay a lot more for standard food. And fresh veggies? Sure, they exist, but focused on the particular ethnic group of the area, and competing with the expensive stores as well, so not really competing at all. I grew up in a middle class suburb. Driving is required. Cost of entry. Everything within a 10 minute drive, though, and I can carry a lot. The stores know they are competing in a much wider market, so the prices are much lower. My options are huge. Many (hundreds) of choices of where to buy whatever I want. My food is cheaper and more healthy.
Post #311,904 by beepster 7/29/09 6:58:05 AM Reply	Not the case everywhere. and everybody pays those taxes. And since most of those folks don't pay prop taxes directly they still get a break...since the rules are different for rentals in the big C and definitely lower downtown. I could get cheap fresh veggies in the hood. You just have to know where to shop...which means you had to know where the truck would be and when. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #311,907 by crazy 7/29/09 7:29:07 AM Reply	How convenient "and everybody pays those taxes." Well yeah, that was my point. Someone said these people don't pay taxes. "And since most of those folks don't pay prop taxes directly they still get a break...since the rules are different for rentals in the big C and definitely lower downtown." Directly? Puhleeze. Owner pays taxes out of rent. As you've pointed out many times, taxes are passed along. "I could get cheap fresh veggies in the hood. You just have to know where to shop...which means you had to know where the truck would be and when." Holy shit. Sounds like an expedition fraught with peril. Within walking distance? How far? Did I make it when the truck was there? No, too ealy, gotta wait. Too late, oh well, missed my chance. And have you spent any time in the vast swathes of burned out neighborhoods that I'm talking about? No, not a chance. Ok, maybe a chance, but I'm going with the odds. Tell you what. Make a shopping list. Family of 4, (2 adults, 2 kids, will keep you alive and in toilet paper, etc, for a week). Make it healthy. Tell me how much you expect it to cost. And then I get to choose which neghborhood to drop you into to do your shopping. I'll give you a week to research, but you are not allowed to take a car into it. Good luck with that.
Post #311,913 by boxley 7/29/09 9:34:18 AM Reply	do they take food stamps? :-) I may need to pick up smokes
Post #311,938 by beepster 7/29/09 11:41:19 AM Reply	west philly, downtown camden, south philly around washington been in those burned out places..plus other locations like the projects in Phoenix and Chicago...pretending that others haven't seen the world as you have doesn't make that perception real. The real fact is that you are demonstrating fear of those locations that the people that really live there don't have...so they know where to go, when to go and what to get. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #311,940 by beepster 7/29/09 11:42:41 AM Reply	and the "make it healthy" qualification is not generally shared among your constituents in those neighborhoods. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #311,943 by crazy 7/29/09 12:13:37 PM Reply	You've only just begun Let's hear the shopping list, and please, no racist comments about how those people don't want to eat healthy or attempting to paint me as one. These are crappy places, no matter which race predominates. You'll have 2 kids with you, so don't forget your wagon. Or account for the cost of someone babysitting them since your significant other is at work in their minimum wage job, and you have no car to drop them off at your relatives.
Post #311,945 by boxley 7/29/09 12:18:55 PM Reply	let them run on the streets like everyone else does
Post #311,948 by crazy 7/29/09 12:43:24 PM Reply	See, you know this is a game that can't be won. So you prefer to spray raid on the tundra.
Post #311,951 by boxley 7/29/09 12:52:56 PM Reply	try google maps 2989 harlan dr east point georgia do some stats about economy, racial mix, stores poor people have poor ways of doing things. Really poor people get food stamps and bus passes. A lot of people at the above area are poor, no work and walk the only people I have seen dont look like they are missing many meals local parking lots have mexicans in trucks selling produce off the back cheaper than I get it in my more affluent area. Meat is a lot cheaper and helthier cuts at the korean grocers http://maps.google.c...bp=12,227.23,,0,5 has everything a neighborhood needs hookers strip joint liquor store check cashing drug sales police sub station in an ex donut shop homeless under the bridge 1/2 mile away
Post #311,955 by drook 7/29/09 1:10:10 PM Reply	Seriously? police sub station in an ex donut shop That's too good. If they did that in a movie people wouldn't believe it. -- Drew
Post #311,959 by boxley 7/29/09 1:20:14 PM Reply	rotate the street view to eastpoint pd looks suspiciously like a dunkin donuts :-)
Post #311,961 by drook 7/29/09 1:29:50 PM Reply	Where's eastpoint? Can't see it on that map. -- Drew
Post #311,964 by boxley 7/29/09 1:55:43 PM Reply	Re: Where's eastpoint? the target A is the police substation http://maps.google.c...bp=11,357.18,,0,5
Post #311,970 by drook 7/29/09 2:12:49 PM Reply	That is so awesome And by the way, your first link dropped me right in front of the nudie bar. -- Drew
Post #311,972 by boxley 7/29/09 2:13:34 PM Reply	still trying to get the hang of google maps :-)
Post #311,979 by folkert 7/29/09 3:20:03 PM 7/29/09 3:21:01 PM Reply	Ummm yeah... OK. Its your story... you tell it how you want! Plus the Cop Shack is right down the street... Edited by folkert July 29, 2009, 03:21:01 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #312,005 by beepster 7/30/09 7:28:07 AM Reply	Actually is a very good store and the cop shack in the donut shop next to the strip joint is priceless...but I wouldn't consider east point as "hood" as some of the places that crazy and I are discussing. Your point about the truck sales is more salient to the discussion, as the same thing happens in those neighborhoods. still not certain what good this "healthy list" is going to do...as one set of experience differs from another. Pick whatever you want..give me 1 week in the area and I'll be able to get it. Any area you like in pretty much the western hemisphere...and always at the same price or better. Almost certainly I will NOT be able to do it all in one place..but the concept of "one trip to the store" is a suburban one, not a city one. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #312,013 by crazy 7/30/09 8:33:55 AM Reply	The point "still not certain what good this "healthy list" is going to do...as one set of experience differs from another." is to understand your shopping requirements vs money for travel requirements vs money for childcare (or cost associated with bringing them shopping, both in actual cost plus less things you can carry) vs (I dunno, things evolve in the discussion and I might learn something). The task would simply be overwhelming to me. I've got a niece with 4 kids between the ages of 1 and 6. Her husband is gone, day and night, working, wheeling and dealing, etc. They have a single vehicle, and it's not avaiable during the day (used for work), unreliable anyway, and when the stores are open, that is when she has to go. She cooks healthy. Which takes a large effort to gather every few days. She has very limited choices locally. She packs them all up, and takes the bus. It is at least a 4 hour effort, every time, and she can only do it because the grocery store will deliver. I have no idea of the availability of this type of service to other areas, or the cost associated with it. Map that effort to a single mom with 2 kids that works a day job for crap wages. time contraints skyrocket, money availability drops, food choices drop, etc. I'd like to see your list and assumed cost. I'd try to determine the costs, weight, volume, etc, and see if it is feasible or a fantasy to accomplish the task. But I need you to tell me what you need to live on, and what you consider a reasonable price. It's a thought exercise. That's all.
Post #312,015 by boxley 7/30/09 8:39:56 AM Reply	your equation is missing a few things first cost. Anyone that poor is on foodstamps so actual price is relative. One still needs to be picky to get thru the month Dunno if 173 and jerome in the bronx is a hood but some people think so. Lots of grocery stores about the size of 711's people walk with a baby stroller and hang bags all over it people hang bags all over their kids people get it done on a regular basis
Post #312,029 by beepster 7/30/09 10:38:16 AM Reply	Considering I married a single mother from southwest (not exactly in the hood..but one or 2 blocks away...I think I'm gaining a better understanding of where you're coming from here...you are STILL assuming this is a single trip affair and/or that this delivery option is her only choice. You have to consider everything. Where does she work and what is available near there? Where does she live and what is available near there? What options does she have locally to her to keep an eye on kids if she needs to be somewhere else? Shopping is usually done in pieces...not in a single trip. Staples are bought in big trips (pasta, rice, potatoes etc). Lunchmeats, bread and milk are usually corner store items. Canned goods are big stock items, in downtown philly, for example, you make sure to coordinate your trip with someone with a big trunk and save for "can can" sales at shop rite...getting things like corn, green beans, et al for 20-25cents per can. Whats left are the perishables...which you don't buy in big trips because, in general, you can't afford spoilage. These items you tend to get either 1)during your lunch break from work (if you have one) or 2) in a quick stop on your way home from work or 3) from the various shops and options near where you live. (truck on corner, local ethnic shop (they're everywhere), washington ave (for the south philly folks)...etc. None of the above assumes any use of food stamps whatsoever...which as Box points out does take some of the price pressure off but does present some issues re: where they can be used. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #312,043 by drook 7/30/09 12:08:03 PM Reply	Remember what this was about But what they really pay is the poor neighborhood penalty. All those things you're talking about are what people do. Not because they want to, but because they have to. And it takes much more time than just running to the supermarket and getting everything at once. What you've described probably takes 8-10 hours per week if you add it all up. That's hours they can't be doing overtime to afford to move to a better neighborhood. It's hours they can't go to school to get a better job. It's hours they can't be looking at the classifieds or applying for jobs. Living in a bad neighborhood may cost less in rent, but everything else about it costs more, and takes longer. -- Drew
Post #312,045 by beepster 7/30/09 12:13:24 PM Reply	you've never lived in europe, have you its not a penalty, its not an undue use of time...its what you do and how you do it based on where you live. You, too, are approaching this from the suburban mentality that says shopping is what you do once a week at the big store on saturday or before it snows. thats simply not how its done in the city. Never has been, never will be. It doesn't take longer, its comes in much shorter bursts. Corner store is a 5 minute trip when you need a gallon...the big trip is once every couple of months...the lunch stop or stop on the way home adds 10 to 15 minutes. just because YOU have always done it one way and you assume its a better and more efficient use of your time, doesn't make it the "standard" by which these things should be judged. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #312,046 by drook 7/30/09 12:22:28 PM Reply	No I haven't I know what you're saying about how things are arranged in Europe vs. the U.S. suburban model, and I actually would prefer the European model. But most of the U.S. isn't arranged that way. Maybe cities are more like that than the suburbs are, but I've been through some bad neighborhoods in Cleveland: Hough (ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hough_Riots), East Cleveland, South Euclid. I've talked to people who live there, and talk about the "black tax". Like so many other supposedly black issues, it's actually a "poor tax". It's just that those two demographics have a pretty significant overlap. In those neighborhoods, choice is much more limited, and typically more expensive. -- Drew
Post #312,050 by beepster 7/30/09 12:41:52 PM Reply	Likely combination of good and bad Been in those areas, and some in NYC where its true that the local choices are pretty dry. There aren't that many places in Philly/Camden like that. There is also that disconnect between the reality of where you live and the expectation. We in the US did a fine job of building up the "big store" mentality, get everybody hooked and then watch it implode with the industry base in most places. East St Louis also comes to mind here. I've seen, however, those in exactly the same plight to exactly what we're being told can't at the same price or less. I've seen it done and done it myself at various points in time. Part of it could very well be that I have both experiences, that of the suburban "big trip" and that of the "get it on your way home" inner city/european model. I, like you, like the second way better...and living in a city like Philly and even camden, this is possible to do. Also possible in most areas of NYC. Its actually how I did it even when living in suburban NJ and working downtown...and I had a grocery store across the street. I had a place for meat, a place for vegetables, all at prices better than the grocery (and higher quality) and I didn't have anything go bad in the fridge. Its not more expensive. You just have to know what your doing and where. That takes local knowledge >and< flexibility..maybe when you add up the time it takes a little more..but that time is made up for in the fact that you are reducing spoilage. So, as with everything else in reality, there's probably truth on both sides of this discussion. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #312,051 by drook 7/30/09 1:02:28 PM Reply	I've always said Philly is different You can be in a relatively nice part of the city, make a wrong turn and two blocks later you're thinking, "Holy shit, I need to get out of here." There are bad neighborhoods in every city, but usually you see them coming. My experience of Philly is probably colored by the fact that some really bad areas were gentrifying when I was going there after work. (Late 80s.) There are ares in Cleveland that are trying to gentrify, like Ohio City / Tremont. My wife and I would both like to live there, but wouldn't want to raise the kids there. -- Drew

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