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New 'The filthy, stinking truth' (on cleanliness)
Read it and weep, you disgusting, clean bastards!

The filthy, stinking truth

The messy history of cleanliness, and why our obsession with dirt may be making us sick.

By Katharine Mieszkowski


The thought of a daily shower would have filled the 17th century Frenchman with fear. To splash away with abandon, to open your pores and leave your body vulnerable to all that disease, would be practically asking to get sick. In fact, our bathing habits would have disgusted him, much like his habits disgust us: never washing his body with water or soap, for instance. Or changing his linen shirt to get clean.

How cleanliness has changed in the West is the engrossing (and sometimes gross) subject of Katherine Ashenburg's "The Dirt on Clean: An Unsanitized History," which skates merrily from ancient frolics at the public baths to today's obsession with hand sanitizer and teeth-whitening strips. Ashenburg, whose previous book was a popular history of grief called "The Mourner's Dance: What We Do When People Die," argues that contemporary cleanliness has more to do with appearances than hygiene. Considering our relative lack of physical exertion compared with our ancestors, why do we consider a daily shower an ideal, anyway? Apparently, the less we sweat, the more we clean. But our very fear of dirt may actually be making us sick.

Salon spoke with Ashenburg by phone from her office in Toronto.

What did clean mean in ancient Rome?

If you were a man, you would take off all your clothes, put a little oil on your body, rub it with dust and go out into the playing field to work up a sweat. Then you would get somebody to scrape off your perspiration with an instrument that looks like a little tiny rake, called a strigil. Then you would get into a tepid bath, then into a really hot bath, then into a cold bath.

You never used any soap, and it was all done in public. If you were just a normal person, you'd probably spend a couple of hours every day in the bathhouse, where you could get wine, food, sex, a medical treatment, a haircut. You could have a depilator pluck the hair in your armpits.

Why wasn't soap popular?

Soap was a combination of animal fat and lye. The Egyptians went to great lengths to make a soap that was mild enough to use on bodies, but many cultures, including the Romans and Greeks, didn't really. So they scraped themselves. Basically, it was a kind of drastic exfoliation. They probably got as clean as soap makes you. Most people, except very rich people, didn't use soap until about the second half of the 19th century.

Why did public baths go out of fashion?

They went out of fashion because the infrastructure to run them -- the mechanisms that brought them water, that heated their water, that separated out the different heats of the various pools -- required an enormously sophisticated and complicated infrastructure, which the Roman Empire had. But when the empire started to fall apart, people couldn't maintain that, and the invading barbarians disabled the aqueducts. There was never an empire large enough to support that again.

How have attitudes about cold versus hot water for bathing changed over the centuries?

They haven't changed much. One of the most wonderful, long-lasting, historical continuities is the people who support cold-water bathing, who think it's virile and virtuous, versus the people who want to bathe in warm or hot water. They don't attach any moral significance to their choice of warm or hot water. They just think it's way more comfortable, and easier, to clean yourself in warm or hot water. There's a German expression, Warmduscher, "warm showerer," which is one of the ways you describe a man who is short on masculinity. I just love it that these two camps have been going for centuries.

We all know the saying, "Cleanliness is next to Godliness," but there was a time when quite the opposite was true. Could you talk about that?

Christianity turns out to be the only great world religion -- great in the sense of widespread and influential -- that had no teaching or interest in hygiene. In the early years of the church, the holier you were, the less you wanted to be clean. Cleanliness was kind of a luxury, like food, drink and sex, because cleanliness was comfortable and attractive. The holier you were -- and this really applied to monks and hermits and saints -- the less you would wash. And the more you smelled, the closer to God people thought you were.

So then did Buddhists and Muslims think Christians were filthy?

Absolutely. And they were right, too.

And didn't Westerners have a reputation among Asians for being filthy?

Yes. They probably were, relatively speaking, compared to affluent Chinese and to Japanese people of every class. One of the reasons may have been the influence of Christianity. Europe suffered this hiatus in cleanliness for about four or five centuries. When the great plagues came, the Black Death, in the 14th century, the king of France asked the medical faculty at the Sorbonne in Paris, "What is causing this hideous plague that is killing one out of every three Europeans, and what can we do to prevent it?" And the doctor said the people who were at risk for getting the plague had opened their pores in warm or hot water, in the baths, and they were much more susceptible.

[. . .]

But didn't at least one doctor you interviewed argue that the most important thing for preventing disease in terms of cleanliness -- hand washing -- is actually one that many Americans do inadequately?

Yes. That's a very good point. This was Dr. Germ, or Dr. Gerba, which is his real name. He has sent his researchers into public washrooms and found that only about 15 percent of people there actually wash long enough and with soap.

So much of our current interest in cleanliness is really about appearance and not ever smelling like a human being. If we smell like mangoes or vanilla and our face looks clean and our teeth are paper white, that's good enough. But really the one seriously disease-preventing practice of hand washing is not done enough.

Does our obsession with cleanliness actually make us healthier?

No. Not at all. I think it's making us sicker in the case of the hygiene hypothesis. It's increasingly believed by a large number of doctors and scientists, who say that the fact that we're not giving one of our immune systems enough dirt and germs to kind of flex its muscles on and get strong is allowing the other immune system, the one that gets allergies and asthma, to [take over].

It's kind of like a teeter-totter: The one that works on dirt and bacteria has nothing to do, and so it becomes really unexercised, and it's sort of on the ground of the teeter-totter. The other one is way in the air. Scientists couldn't understand why we had these skyrocketing rates of asthma and allergies. Now the hypothesis is that we are oversanitized to the point of making our children sick.

Is there any health benefit to bathing every day, or is it more of a social convention?

It's totally a social convention, according to the doctors I spoke with. They said it's very important to wash below our wrists [i.e., hands], and the worst thing that could happen to you, if you suddenly became a 17th century person and never washed beyond your wrists, would be some skin conditions or fungal things. It's no doubt comfortable to be clean. But there is no health benefit to washing above the wrists [i.e., the body] other than possibly preventing some fungal things.

Did you find that conventions around bathing are driven by technological change or that societal attitudes drive the technology?

The latter, very much.



PS. [link|http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/11/30/dirt_on_clean/index1.html| Salon].

Collapse Edited by Ashton Dec. 1, 2007, 06:19:32 AM EST
'The filthy, stinking truth' (on cleanliness)
Read it and weep, you disgusting, clean bastards!

The filthy, stinking truth

The messy history of cleanliness, and why our obsession with dirt may be making us sick.

By Katharine Mieszkowski


The thought of a daily shower would have filled the 17th century Frenchman with fear. To splash away with abandon, to open your pores and leave your body vulnerable to all that disease, would be practically asking to get sick. In fact, our bathing habits would have disgusted him, much like his habits disgust us: never washing his body with water or soap, for instance. Or changing his linen shirt to get clean.

How cleanliness has changed in the West is the engrossing (and sometimes gross) subject of Katherine Ashenburg's "The Dirt on Clean: An Unsanitized History," which skates merrily from ancient frolics at the public baths to today's obsession with hand sanitizer and teeth-whitening strips. Ashenburg, whose previous book was a popular history of grief called "The Mourner's Dance: What We Do When People Die," argues that contemporary cleanliness has more to do with appearances than hygiene. Considering our relative lack of physical exertion compared with our ancestors, why do we consider a daily shower an ideal, anyway? Apparently, the less we sweat, the more we clean. But our very fear of dirt may actually be making us sick.

Salon spoke with Ashenburg by phone from her office in Toronto.

What did clean mean in ancient Rome?

If you were a man, you would take off all your clothes, put a little oil on your body, rub it with dust and go out into the playing field to work up a sweat. Then you would get somebody to scrape off your perspiration with an instrument that looks like a little tiny rake, called a strigil. Then you would get into a tepid bath, then into a really hot bath, then into a cold bath.

You never used any soap, and it was all done in public. If you were just a normal person, you'd probably spend a couple of hours every day in the bathhouse, where you could get wine, food, sex, a medical treatment, a haircut. You could have a depilator pluck the hair in your armpits.

Why wasn't soap popular?

Soap was a combination of animal fat and lye. The Egyptians went to great lengths to make a soap that was mild enough to use on bodies, but many cultures, including the Romans and Greeks, didn't really. So they scraped themselves. Basically, it was a kind of drastic exfoliation. They probably got as clean as soap makes you. Most people, except very rich people, didn't use soap until about the second half of the 19th century.

Why did public baths go out of fashion?

They went out of fashion because the infrastructure to run them -- the mechanisms that brought them water, that heated their water, that separated out the different heats of the various pools -- required an enormously sophisticated and complicated infrastructure, which the Roman Empire had. But when the empire started to fall apart, people couldn't maintain that, and the invading barbarians disabled the aqueducts. There was never an empire large enough to support that again.

How have attitudes about cold versus hot water for bathing changed over the centuries?

They haven't changed much. One of the most wonderful, long-lasting, historical continuities is the people who support cold-water bathing, who think it's virile and virtuous, versus the people who want to bathe in warm or hot water. They don't attach any moral significance to their choice of warm or hot water. They just think it's way more comfortable, and easier, to clean yourself in warm or hot water. There's a German expression, Warmduscher, "warm showerer," which is one of the ways you describe a man who is short on masculinity. I just love it that these two camps have been going for centuries.

We all know the saying, "Cleanliness is next to Godliness," but there was a time when quite the opposite was true. Could you talk about that?

Christianity turns out to be the only great world religion -- great in the sense of widespread and influential -- that had no teaching or interest in hygiene. In the early years of the church, the holier you were, the less you wanted to be clean. Cleanliness was kind of a luxury, like food, drink and sex, because cleanliness was comfortable and attractive. The holier you were -- and this really applied to monks and hermits and saints -- the less you would wash. And the more you smelled, the closer to God people thought you were.

So then did Buddhists and Muslims think Christians were filthy?

Absolutely. And they were right, too.

And didn't Westerners have a reputation among Asians for being filthy?

Yes. They probably were, relatively speaking, compared to affluent Chinese and to Japanese people of every class. One of the reasons may have been the influence of Christianity. Europe suffered this hiatus in cleanliness for about four or five centuries. When the great plagues came, the Black Death, in the 14th century, the king of France asked the medical faculty at the Sorbonne in Paris, "What is causing this hideous plague that is killing one out of every three Europeans, and what can we do to prevent it?" And the doctor said the people who were at risk for getting the plague had opened their pores in warm or hot water, in the baths, and they were much more susceptible.

[. . .]

But didn't at least one doctor you interviewed argue that the most important thing for preventing disease in terms of cleanliness -- hand washing -- is actually one that many Americans do inadequately?

Yes. That's a very good point. This was Dr. Germ, or Dr. Gerba, which is his real name. He has sent his researchers into public washrooms and found that only about 15 percent of people there actually wash long enough and with soap.

So much of our current interest in cleanliness is really about appearance and not ever smelling like a human being. If we smell like mangoes or vanilla and our face looks clean and our teeth are paper white, that's good enough. But really the one seriously disease-preventing practice of hand washing is not done enough.

Does our obsession with cleanliness actually make us healthier?

No. Not at all. I think it's making us sicker in the case of the hygiene hypothesis. It's increasingly believed by a large number of doctors and scientists, who say that the fact that we're not giving one of our immune systems enough dirt and germs to kind of flex its muscles on and get strong is allowing the other immune system, the one that gets allergies and asthma, to [take over].

It's kind of like a teeter-totter: The one that works on dirt and bacteria has nothing to do, and so it becomes really unexercised, and it's sort of on the ground of the teeter-totter. The other one is way in the air. Scientists couldn't understand why we had these skyrocketing rates of asthma and allergies. Now the hypothesis is that we are oversanitized to the point of making our children sick.

Is there any health benefit to bathing every day, or is it more of a social convention?

It's totally a social convention, according to the doctors I spoke with. They said it's very important to wash below our wrists [i.e., hands], and the worst thing that could happen to you, if you suddenly became a 17th century person and never washed beyond your wrists, would be some skin conditions or fungal things. It's no doubt comfortable to be clean. But there is no health benefit to washing above the wrists [i.e., the body] other than possibly preventing some fungal things.

Did you find that conventions around bathing are driven by technological change or that societal attitudes drive the technology?

The latter, very much.

New "other than possibly preventing some fungal things"?
Um, yeah. I've had "some fungal things" (in the distant past) and that's reason enough to bathe every day, lemme tellya.

I take my two hot showers a day and enjoy them greatly, despite what some Kraut massochists might say (Krautland is reputed to have the highest percentage of men who are "that way" anyway). And my evening shower means I don't have to wash and fold my sheets so often.

In the morning I take my shower and shampoo my hair. If I don't it becomes itchy later in the day. And I rinse out under stingingly hot water to "wake up my scalp". Maybe that's why I have lots of nice hair and so many guys my age don't have any.

The only downside is that women are supposed ot be subliminally attracted by male sweat. Well, if that's what attracts them . . . but if I say anything about what attracts them Bio's going to jump on my case again.

Now going on to germaphobic sterile households damaging kids immune systems - I can certainly believe that, it just makes sense. Kids should be out playing in the mud and eating dirt and all that stuff like we older folks did.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New You just have to poke me, dont you?
Manly sweat, especially from the underarms and groin carries pheromones. You wash away the sweat and you wash away the biochemical attraction. But it has to be nice clean sweat. Not 4-day-old-sitting-in-front-of-your-computer-in-a-programming-frenzy-sweat.
Chicks dont dig that.

I'm a bath person. Now a lot of people dont like the idea of stewing in their own swill, but honestly, how dirty do we really get? If I'm dirty and sweating from yard work,I might hose off in the shower first before running the tub, but I have to have that soak. I get the water a pinch hotter than I can stand, then ease into it until my head is resting on the bottom of the tub. I stay there, in the dark quiet until I have to come up for air. I time myself to see how long I can stay down. I've learned to hyperventilate before going under so I can stay down longer. It changes the levels in your blood gases, delaying the need to take in O2. Seriously. Anyway, I like the quiet. When I get out I look like a boiled lobster. I then slather on lotion from head to toe, get in my jammies and slippers, pour a glass of wine if I have some, and chill out. It keeps me as sane as I'm gonna get.
New native northern folks are clean
most white people go into the bush assume it is a vacation from regular bathing, the locals think they stink as they take a daily basin bath and a steam bath every couple of days. In the summer bathing in lakes is common.
thanx,
bil
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Yeah, I think it was a Western European thing.
(As the article points out) When Westerners encountered other cultures, they were often regarded as barbarians. Some of the early scenes in [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dgun_%28novel%29|Shogun] involve the contrasts between European ideas of healthy living and the Japanese.

Cheers,
Scott.
[link|http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=006978452673906630972%3A_5xhnlvpsn4|IWeThey Custom Search Engine]
New We *are* barbarians!
Other cultures view birth as natural and uncomplicated. We Westerners have to turn it into something to be feared, disinfected, medicated, forcepped, and, shameful of all----SHUSHED!!!

I remember giving birth to my daughter, the LARGEST baby I have ever delivered, and I was forced to deliver her naturally---no epidural. While pushing that TEN POUND, 21 INCH bundle of beauty from my body, the midwife had the NERVE to SHUSH ME!

WTF???

Weren't we in the maternity wing of the hospital? Where, um, you know, babies are BEING BORN and mothers are SCREAMING in AGONY???!!! The stupid fuckers.

Critter and I watched "Knocked Up" last night and yes, I laughed when the male nurse told her to "tone it down a bit" and she said, "ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?" But it is a sad state of affairs when a situation is so commonplace in reality as to become a punchline in a movie. Obviously *my* shushing was not unique.

I could go on with the stupidity of how breastfeeding is treated in our society, but I think we have already discussed that elsewhere.

I know I am preaching to the choir :-)
Smile,
Amy
New Breast feeding
Ick.

Get that little parasite off me!

Needless to say, I never mastered that womanly art. But giving birth like a screaming banshee- that one I nailed!
New So, you shirked your definitive duity as a mammal . . .
. . how reptilian of you. No wonder you like lizards so much.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New There is a reason they make formula!
Maybe my lower reptilian brain is more developed than my higher brain. But I carried that baby for 9 long months. I wanted it out of me and off of me.

After I delivered the nurse put the baby on my chest, expecting me to nurse. Was she kidding me? I just spent 14 hours trying to push that thing out of me and now it is supposed to suck the life out of me? AGAIN? No thanks. I felt like I was being eaten alive.

If I was an animal in the wild, my babies would've ended up being the piglets who were nursed by the tiger. It would've been their only shot at survival.

I guess I am a very bad mammal.
New Gee, most pregnant women seem offended . . .
. . when I point out they've become infected with a parasite.

They don't seem much happier when I mention that the infection takes about 24 years to run its course.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Why do you think I hide underwater?
Because they cant glom on to me while I'm in there!!
New I could've opened my own dairy :-D
I will concede that there is severe hypocrisy regarding breastfeeding in America.

On the one hand, it is shunned in public places. On the other, it is expected to come naturally to every woman who bears a child.

Also, there are two camps: Side A -the La Leches, who believe that if you don't breastfeed you are a horrible mother vs. Side B - some women just aren't able to breastfeed for myriad reasons: time, ability, health, work...the list could go on.

I was fortunate that I was able to breastfeed my children. It didn't always go smoothly. When I first started with my first child, the lactation nurse was a little too gonzo and wanted me to nurse for 10 minutes on each side. I hurt so bad that I cried. It takes a lot of patience and guidance. I was lucky I had all the time I needed.

Breastfeeding is definitely a personal choice. But I often wonder how much healthier we would be if we bottled and sold breast milk. Don't laugh! Think of the logic of such a premise!

I would like to expound more but my son just called and I have to go.

Have at it, yall!
Smile,
Amy
New try a bia hospital
no epideral, no drugs and iffen you are lucky a doctor may be around. On the plus side scream all you want and they let the husband catch if they are short staffed.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New 'splain "bia" to me, Lucy :-)
Smile,
Amy
New bureau indian affairs, IHS Indian Health Services
gumment provided health care. Be afraid, very afraid.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
Expand Edited by boxley Dec. 2, 2007, 11:16:36 AM EST
New Say no more! <quiver>
Smile,
Amy
New Husband catch?
Oh please. Mine couldnt tear himself away from his crossword puzzle and the SECOND that baby popped out he said he was going to go home because HE was EXHAUSTED from being at the hospital since 5am. Then, THEN, the next night the hospital served the new parents a special meal on china with linens and the whole shebang. He didnt show. Too tired, he said. I ate by myself, in that defining moment when I realized it was all over.

Good thing I didnt deliver in a bia. My baby would've landed on the floor.

I dont know why I just shared that.

Oh well.
New {{{{{Bio}}}}}
You shared because you needed to and because we love you. If we could, we would shoot, stab, draw, quarter, hang, disembowel, stretch, and decapitate the chicken shit rat bastard.

Because we are loving, caring, peaceful people :-D
Smile,
Amy
New Oh stop.
I'm strong like ox. :-)
New I know - You are DA WOMAN!
That's why I love you.

(Easy, Pervs, not like that...and you know who you are :-D)
Smile,
Amy
New Lesbytarian.
New Re: 'The filthy, stinking truth' (on cleanliness)
Why did public baths go out of fashion?


They went out of fashion because the infrastructure to run them -- the mechanisms that brought them water, that heated their water, that separated out the different heats of the various pools -- required an enormously sophisticated and complicated infrastructure, which the Roman Empire had. But when the empire started to fall apart, people couldn't maintain that, and the invading barbarians disabled the aqueducts. There was never an empire large enough to support that again.

That is mostly wrong. Public baths remained popular in the big cities until the church worked to suppress them as centers of immoral behavior. It probably did fade out in the smaller cities because of the lack of infrastructure. But the Catholic church actively promoted not bathing on a regular basis for moral reasons and that has more to do with why even bathing at home among the rich was not common.

Jay
     'The filthy, stinking truth' (on cleanliness) - (Ashton) - (21)
         "other than possibly preventing some fungal things"? - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
             You just have to poke me, dont you? - (bionerd)
         native northern folks are clean - (boxley) - (17)
             Yeah, I think it was a Western European thing. - (Another Scott) - (16)
                 We *are* barbarians! - (imqwerky) - (15)
                     Breast feeding - (bionerd) - (5)
                         So, you shirked your definitive duity as a mammal . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                             There is a reason they make formula! - (bionerd) - (2)
                                 Gee, most pregnant women seem offended . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                     Why do you think I hide underwater? - (bionerd)
                         I could've opened my own dairy :-D - (imqwerky)
                     try a bia hospital - (boxley) - (8)
                         'splain "bia" to me, Lucy :-) -NT - (imqwerky) - (2)
                             bureau indian affairs, IHS Indian Health Services - (boxley) - (1)
                                 Say no more! <quiver> -NT - (imqwerky)
                         Husband catch? - (bionerd) - (4)
                             {{{{{Bio}}}}} - (imqwerky) - (3)
                                 Oh stop. - (bionerd) - (2)
                                     I know - You are DA WOMAN! - (imqwerky) - (1)
                                         Lesbytarian. -NT - (bionerd)
         Re: 'The filthy, stinking truth' (on cleanliness) - (JayMehaffey)

All your very long procedures are now belong to us.
82 ms