Post #292,122
9/2/07 8:50:59 AM
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Safety Agency Faces Scrutiny Amid Changes
Mr. Bush began delivering on his deregulatory agenda soon after arriving in Washington. He named Harold D. Stratton, a former attorney general of New Mexico, to head the consumer protection agency. Created by Congress in 1972 in the fervor of Ralph Nader\ufffds consumer movement, the agency was long seen as an irritant by manufacturers and business groups.
A conservative Republican and a Bush campaign volunteer, Mr. Stratton strongly objected when he was an attorney general to counterparts in other states bringing consumer protection cases, saying they were trying \ufffdto impose their own antibusiness, pro-government regulation views.\ufffd Later, he was co-founder of a nonprofit group, the Rio Grande Foundation, which says it promotes \ufffdindividual freedom, limited government, and economic opportunity.\ufffd
...
In 2003, Mr. Stratton moved to reverse an enforcement action started two years earlier against the Daisy Manufacturing Company that sought to force it to remove 7.2 million air-powered BB guns from the market.
The guns were flawed, the agency staff had argued, because a BB could become lodged within the barrel even when the chamber appeared to be empty, a condition that agency research showed had caused at least 15 deaths and 171 serious injuries, most of them involving children.
Citing Daisy\ufffds \ufffdprecarious financial condition,\ufffd Mr. Stratton rejected the recall plan \ufffd and the court proceeding that is necessary any time the commission wants to force a company to accept a recall \ufffd saying, \ufffdI consider this administrative legal proceeding to be burdensome and inefficient.\ufffd [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/business/02consumer.html?pagewanted=1&hp|Link] OT: Lily I don't if you know much about the Daisy Air Rifle, but the company started out in Plymouth. The Wilcox house next to the Penn theater was built by the owner for his mistress in the early 20th century. The house was across Kellogg Park from where he lived with his wife and family. Seamus
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Post #292,125
9/2/07 9:56:16 AM
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I agree with Mr Stratton on the daisy issue
a jam in the barrel is a fundemental design flaw of an air powered projectile weapon. It cannot be designed to not happen 100% because then the projectiles would not fire 100% of the time.
It is a rifle folks, treat it like one. When my kids got theirs it came with the same instructions I would have given if it was a 22 or 410.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,127
9/2/07 10:05:52 AM
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Re: I agree with Mr Stratton on the daisy issue
The issue with the ATVs at the beginning of the article worries me more, but I chose the air rifle example because of the link to Plymouth, MI.
Seamus
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Post #292,139
9/2/07 11:49:25 AM
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Curiously, I side with Bill.
First, he's absolutely correct about treating a rifle (or smooth bore for the pedantic) correctly.
Second, I think they've been tweaking the statistics a little. It would be very difficult for a marksman to kill 17 people with a daisy BB gun. When I was a kid everybody had one and BB gun fights were normal*. Being the Yankee in Virginia, I got my ass peppered on a regular basis until my dad got me a Benjamin pump gun**. That one had a bolt action and you could pump it multiple times. Seven pumps would but a BB through half an inch of pine. I shot a couple of the little bastards in the belly and the BB gun fights became significantly less popular. Still, nobody was seriously harmed, much less killed. They did more damage to me shooting me with an arrow than those silly Daisies.
* yes, I know that that was improper use of a weapon, but it was their turf and I was playing by local rules. In those days, I was expected to hold my own, but not cause permanent damage. The local assholes were not constrained by the same rules.
** I still have it. My father kept it when I moved out and just gave it back to me when he downsized his house a couple years ago. Fifty something years old and curiously enough the skunks that used to rule the back yard have left for other environs...
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Post #292,141
9/2/07 11:55:19 AM
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my apologies, I read the exerpt not the link
On ATV's why does the public buy a machine that can do in excess of 80mph with a spongy suspension and strong arm bycicle style steering and then complain when their 10yo flips it and gets hurt or killed? In states with a lot of ATV sales (alaska is one) kids under 16 are forbidden to drive them on public lands or roadways. Now if you are a true beleiver in "fuckem" you go to a private lot and let yer kid get hurt, but then you have no one to blame but yourself.
Any place you can buy these things you get offers of free safety courses, after sales safety equipment like helmets etc snf sponsored riding events. Another cause of "Im too stupid to breathe so the government should do it for me"
Now the main threust of the article which is the gutting of the safety dept is fine and I agree with the need for more inspectors, labs and reporting but the usage case by the reporter in nonsensical,
Only one lab with a small room to break toys and see if the bits are small enough to choke a 3yo. Give me a break, a couple of yeasrs ago when the kids were smaller they could have come by my house and done the studies for free.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,154
9/2/07 2:37:15 PM
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Re: my apologies, I read the exerpt not the link
My issue is that a lawyer presented an argument that wasn't supported by the agency's own data hoping to pretend the issue doesn't exist, let alone discuss what the solution should be. So, in my opinion, this administration would rather suppress the facts to avoid having the discussion about what the appropriate mission and size is for this agency. \ufffdMy own view is the situation is not necessarily deteriorating,\ufffd said John Gibson Mullan, the agency\ufffds director of compliance and a former lawyer for the A.T.V. industry, according to a recording. The current system of warning labels and other voluntary safety standards was working, he said. \ufffdWe would need to be very careful about making any changes.\ufffd
Robin L. Ingle, then the agency\ufffds hazard statistician and A.T.V. injury expert, was dumbfounded. Her months of research did not support Mr. Mullan\ufffds analysis. Yet she would not get to offer a rebuttal.
\ufffdHe had hijacked the presentation,\ufffd Ms. Ingle said in an interview. \ufffdHe was distorting the numbers in order to benefit industry and defeat the petition. It was almost like he still worked for them, not us.\ufffd Seamus
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Post #292,163
9/2/07 5:05:47 PM
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you want to discuss the data or just support the puzzled
employee or so you always tow the anti anything line? What does the data show? that atv's are dangerous? No shit sherlock. So what is your solution? A tax? make ATV users wear a diaper and a burhka?
feh,
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,170
9/2/07 5:42:45 PM
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The agency lawyer who wasn't scheduled to talk
hijacked the presentation and prevented the hazard expert, a statistician, from making her presentation. That is no way to treat the expert. You don't like what she is saying, don't let her go. If you don't like the type of rules the agency makes, reform don't sabotage.
The point of the article since you don't seem to have read the article is the problem being addressed was kids riding ATVs that were too big for them. The article didn't speculate any proposed solution. You want to speculate about what they were going to propose, go ahead. My point is about the disdain the administration shows for this and other regulatory agencies.
If they don't believe in regulation, they should be honest about it instead of pulling this shit.
Seamus
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Post #292,174
9/2/07 6:38:54 PM
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Re: you want to discuss the data or just support the puzzled
While the point of the article was about how the CPSC doesn't have enough resources to do its job, the ATV example was about pediatricians and others asking the agency to do something about kids riding ATVs that are too big for them and therefore they beyond there ability. Instead of saying we don't think this is something they government should do anything about, they obfuscate. That is bullshit.
Maybe the solution is minimum height and weight requirements to get insurance for adult-size ATVs, but pretending the problem doesn't exist and circumventing whatever process they have in place is definitely not the solution.
Seamus
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Post #292,177
9/2/07 8:29:04 PM
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so the next time your 10yo kid goes to mount an adult
sized 4 wheeler you will be on the horn to homeland security demanding action. Me, I just tell mine to get the fuck off of there, no laws required.
should change yer sig to nanny
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,197
9/3/07 7:04:26 AM
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I tell him to get off also. Nor would I buy him one
which is the point of the example in the article that many adults do buy adult sized ATVs for their kids to ride. And the industry's voluntary safety measures aren't working. So it seems you think it is ok for hack lawyers to sabotage the agency process and you would rather argue a point I didn't make or support. You really need to learn to read for comprehension.
Seamus
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Post #292,202
9/3/07 7:54:30 AM
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Ah, never mind him, he's probably just posting drunk again.
Because, honest to Bog, Bill, you often talk such utter drivel here that if you aren't sauced to the gills when you're doing it, there is NO fucking excuse for it.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #292,205
9/3/07 8:58:31 AM
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maybe in the places where you live that one may not
fart without a gummint permit, several classes given by social workers and an evacuation order by the flat council, such legislation might make sense.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,210
9/3/07 10:37:26 AM
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Thank you for proving my point again.
Hint: Was that what we were talking about?
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #292,213
9/3/07 10:55:01 AM
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it was what I was talking about, you were just displaying
naivette about how some americans value freedom more than draconian social laws.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,217
9/3/07 11:12:12 AM
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Re: it was what I was talking about, you were just displayin
No one is talking about draconian social laws. You are the only one who framed the issue as a choice between the two extremes.
Seamus
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Post #292,204
9/3/07 8:56:06 AM
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you cannot legislate stupidity and shouldnt try
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,207
9/3/07 9:09:21 AM
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Re: you cannot legislate stupidity and shouldnt try
I assume you mean "you cannot legislate against stupidity".
Actually, we can and do. All the time.
Drink drive laws and gun safety laws, to name but two that exist in the USA.
Pretty much all safety legislation is designed to protect people from their own dumb selves.
Peter
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Post #292,212
9/3/07 10:51:28 AM
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difference being nanny et all
would like to see the burden places on the atv manufacturers not the idiots driving them.
Today we have a case where 2 kids driving at night following dad on a dirt bike and fell down an abandoned mine shaft. Keeping in mind that most of these mines are on public lands and havnt been worked in eons. Nanny would like a battalion of trial lawyers lined up to sue the manufaturer for this defect. Thats what gets my goat. Drink Driving is placed correctly on the driver not the manufacturer of booze.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,215
9/3/07 11:07:59 AM
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You have no idea what you are talking about
In the case of drunk driving, bars that served the driver. I am not real found of these laws, I think they can be abused.
The issue is about kids using adult sized, causing accidents and the associated health care costs. Nothing about allowing anyone to sue anybody else.
Seamus
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Post #292,218
9/3/07 11:51:00 AM
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so why dance around the head of a pin?
In the case of drunk driving, bars that served the driver. I am not real found of these laws, I think they can be abused. I have yet to meet a bartender who forced a patron into his car and told him to drive or else. Clear case of stupidity and the law. The issue is about kids using adult sized, causing accidents and the associated health care costs. Nothing about allowing anyone to sue anybody else. so present a useful solution rather than defending people who want to blame manufacturers. thanx, bill Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,226
9/3/07 12:21:07 PM
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You are the one doing the dancing
Bartenders and others who servers who sell alcohol are supposed to not over serve. If a bartender makes a reasonable effort to keep someone they sold alcohol to from drinking and driving, then shouldn't be liable. It doesn't always work that out way.
You are assuming that the doctors and others asking the CPSC to do something, and the CPSC itself, about kids riding adult sized ATVs are blaming manufacturers. The only thing the article addressed was the fact the voluntary program wasn't working, not that it was the manufacturers fault that the program wasn't working. The lawyer sabotaged the process before any talk of a better solution was possible. The was the point of the article and that is why I posted the link.
I don't have a solution, but I know we are not going to find a solution if the administration sabotages the process in place to find a solution rather than trying to fix the process.
Again, I don't think they want to fix the process, they need it as a straw man to argue against, rather like you.
Seamus
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Post #292,214
9/3/07 10:59:06 AM
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Re: you cannot legislate stupidity and shouldnt try
As I am sure you are aware, you are missing the point. The point is the abuse of the process the agency uses to decide what, if any, actions to take. This far into this administration, they should be honest about how they feel about regulation. But they aren't honest markets being better able to regulate themselves because they really believe it. If they did they wouldn't be afraid of debate. But, IMO they don't stand up and say they are against regulation because they want to be free to regulate if they feel they need to.
Nothing in the article indicated they had any specific regulation in mind. But what the lawyer did accomplish was to short circuit any discussion of the cost to society, not just the victims, of this particular brand of stupidity and what can be done about it. Maybe they would have started with an increased public awareness campaign. But, expecting the industry to voluntaryily forgo sales growth for the sake of safety doesn't work either.
Seamus
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Post #292,219
9/3/07 12:01:22 PM
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there you go, finally admitting it
But, expecting the industry to voluntaryily forgo sales growth for the sake of safety doesn't work either. so the industry must be forced to forego sales to prevent injuries by misuse by children. That is easily fixed. Use the equestrian activities law and adapt it. UNDER THE (INSERT STATE HERE) EQUINE ACTIVITY LIABILTIY ACT, AN EQUINE PROFESSIONAL IS NOT LIABLE FOR AN INJUJRY TO OR THE DEATH OF A PARTICIPANT IN AN EQUINE ACTIVITY RESULTING FROM AN INHERENT RISK OF AN EQUINE ACTIVITY. to UNDER THE (INSERT STATE HERE) ATV ACTIVITY LIABILTIY ACT, AN ATV maufacturer or reseller/rental agent of same IS NOT LIABLE FOR AN INJUJRY TO OR THE DEATH OF A PARTICIPANT IN AN ATV ACTIVITY RESULTING FROM AN INHERENT RISK OF AN ATV ACTIVITY. have them sign the waiver at the point of sale or rental. Now somehow I suspect you wouldnt go for such a solution thanks, bill Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #292,227
9/3/07 12:23:58 PM
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I would, I doubt they would
It might also need to address age and weight limits.
Seamus
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Post #292,220
9/3/07 12:01:44 PM
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Reply to your OT comment
All that is left of Daisy is a wall. They tore the rest of the factory down and left the wall as an historic memorial. The Wilcox house is a B & B now. I didnt know it was the home of a dirty mistress, though. How interesting!
I was just in Plymouth yesterday. Did a little window shopping and went to the Box Bar for lunch. You ever been? 40 beers on trap and 700 bottled varieties from around the world. I got too overwhelmed with the choices and had a Sam Adams. A Sam Adams! D'Oh!
We should meet up there sometime.
Then I finished up the day with a trip to Earth Lore (the Pagan/Wiccan/crystal/new age store), which will open me up to all kinds of ridicule if I tell you what I bought, so I wont.
Regarding the topic of the thread... Government regulations to ensure that products are safely manufactured are well and good. Beyond that, it is the consumer's responsibility to use the product in a safe and prudent manner. If you drive your snowmobile onto Whitmore Lake and fall through the ice, that is your own damn fault. All the warning labels in the world wont protect someone against their own ignorance.
Remember Jarts? Every kid with half a brain knew not to stand next to the ring we were aiming for, and every kid with half a brain knew not to throw the jart if someone was standing near the ring. The kids with less than half a brain were not allowed to play.
And what about Ouija boards? If you dont want your kids to summon up demonic spirits, you dont buy your kids a tool to do so. That's what got that girl from The Exorcist in so much trouble! It's all common sense, really.
It is all about personal responsibility and the government has no business regulating that.
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Post #292,230
9/3/07 12:41:12 PM
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I have never actually been to the box bar
All the teachers used to go there, so for some reason I had no desire to go there, but that would be fun. Name the date and time. I won't ask about what you bought till we meet.
I remember hearing Jack Wilcox tell the story about Markham and his mistress when I was at Central. That story was about all I remember learning in middle school. That and some things the gym teacher taught us.
We had a jart set when I was growing up, didn't last long.
When it comes to common sense and what the government's role is, I tend to agree with you that the government shouldn't replace someone's common sense. But, when it starts to be a big cost to society, it is worth discussing what can or should be done. The article was about the circumvention of that discussion.
Seamus
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Post #292,233
9/3/07 12:50:57 PM
9/3/07 12:56:06 PM
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Well, then you are missing a real treat
Let me consult my babysitter and review my mostly empty social calendar and I will let you know. Tell you what I bought? I can SHOW you! That will be another treat for you.
Also, they have really good food.
Central as in CMU or Central as in middle school? I went to Central Middle School!
What year did you graduate, and from where?
Ummmm... Do I know you?
Edited by Lily
Sept. 3, 2007, 12:56:06 PM EDT
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Post #292,235
9/3/07 1:00:26 PM
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Be careful, Seamus! (new thread)
Created as new thread #292234 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=292234|Be careful, Seamus!]
Smile,
Amy
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Post #292,249
9/3/07 3:45:59 PM
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!! (new thread)
Created as new thread #292248 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=292248|!!]
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Post #292,244
9/3/07 2:49:48 PM
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That story jumps all over the place.
I really dislike newspaper stories like that, but it seems it's par for the course. 1) Was anything decided at the ATV meeting? Did Mullan's comments somehow sway any policy decisions, or was he merely giving voice to decisions that were already made? AFAICS, the story doesn't say. 2) The administration executes, or should execute, laws that Congress passes. How they do it is up to them (e.g. they can have different emphasis than their predecessors). We know that there was little effective oversight of the Administration over the past 6.5 years. But Congress funds agencies and sets the mandates. The administration then makes rules based on those laws. Ultimately, these issues will change when Congress changes them. 3) There's nothing new about policy arguments inside an agency, and there's nothing new about political appointees wanting to radically change an agency (e.g. James Watt under Reagan). Congress can tell the CPSC to ban sales of ATVs to children; remember [link|http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,966434,00.html|3-wheelers were outlawed in 1988]. But there are always ways around that. Honda already recommends that only [link|http://powersports.honda.com/popups/popup_text.asp?Category=BE+A+RESPONSIBLE+RIDER&SubCategory=Sport+ATV&w=539&h=342&bhcp=1|highly experienced riders 16 and over] ride their more powerful 4-wheelers: Safety
Be a responsible rider. Riding an ATV is an exercise in responsibility\ufffdto yourself, to others and to the environment. So remember, ATVs can be hazardous to operate. For your safety, wear a helmet, eye protection and protective clothing, and never ride on paved surfaces or public roads. Never carry passengers, and never engage in stunt riding. Avoid excessive speeds, and be particularly careful on difficult terrain. And keep in mind that riding doesn't mix with drugs or alcohol. The TRX450R, TRX400EX and TRX300EX are recommended only for highly experienced riders 16 years and older. The TRX250EX is recommended only for riders 16 years and older. The TRX90 is recommended only for riders 12 years of age and older, and riders younger than 16 years of age must be supervised by an adult. Honda recommends that all ATV riders take a training course and read their owner's manual thoroughly. New ATV purchasers should take advantage of free ASI training and completion incentives. For safety or training information, see your Honda Dealer or call the ASI at (800) 887-2887. Whenever you ride off-road, follow the "Tread Lightly" guidelines, and always stay on established trails in approved areas. Keep your riding areas clean and respect the rights of others. Never modify your silencer or spark arrestor. Always obtain written permission before riding on private lands, and obey all the laws and regulations governing your riding areas. I assume it's similar with other manufacturers. I think a bigger problem than kids riding ATVs they can't handle, or safety caps on hair relaxers, or jambing BB guns, is the gutting of the CPSC over time. But Congress hasn't prevented it. Why hasn't Public Citizen, or some other group, brought a lawsuit? Or have they? The story doesn't say. In short, the NY Times story points out some problems, but it makes a cartoon of the issues. It doesn't present enough information to do much more than confirm the readers's suspicions, IMHO. Why does the story only briefly mention, near the end of the long article, the fact that the CPSC was [link|http://www.ombwatch.org/article/blogs/entry/3720/22|unable to conduct regulatory business since January due to the lack of a quorum]? Cheers, Scott. (Who hates safety caps on pill bottles. They should be available for households with small children, but the rest of the population shouldn't have to suffer with them.)
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Post #292,247
9/3/07 3:38:33 PM
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The focus of the article is the changes
at the CPSC. The examples it uses to illustrate the changes become the story and make it seem rather disjointed. Politics have and will always play some role in the way this and other agencies are run. What rubs me the wrong way is that this administration just doesn't want to admit it is gutting this and other agencies. If it doesn't believe in regulation it should be open and honest about what it is doing, but it won't because it knows the American people won't agree with them. The American people may believe that government is too big, but they still want to be safe.
This does not mean that I believe that all safety rules and regulations are effective and needed.
Seamus
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