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New Re: I agree with Mr Stratton on the daisy issue
The issue with the ATVs at the beginning of the article worries me more, but I chose the air rifle example because of the link to Plymouth, MI.
Seamus
New Curiously, I side with Bill.
First, he's absolutely correct about treating a rifle (or smooth bore for the pedantic) correctly.
Second, I think they've been tweaking the statistics a little. It would be very difficult for a marksman to kill 17 people with a daisy BB gun. When I was a kid everybody had one and BB gun fights were normal*. Being the Yankee in Virginia, I got my ass peppered on a regular basis until my dad got me a Benjamin pump gun**. That one had a bolt action and you could pump it multiple times. Seven pumps would but a BB through half an inch of pine. I shot a couple of the little bastards in the belly and the BB gun fights became significantly less popular. Still, nobody was seriously harmed, much less killed. They did more damage to me shooting me with an arrow than those silly Daisies.

* yes, I know that that was improper use of a weapon, but it was their turf and I was playing by local rules. In those days, I was expected to hold my own, but not cause permanent damage. The local assholes were not constrained by the same rules.

** I still have it. My father kept it when I moved out and just gave it back to me when he downsized his house a couple years ago. Fifty something years old and curiously enough the skunks that used to rule the back yard have left for other environs...
New my apologies, I read the exerpt not the link
On ATV's why does the public buy a machine that can do in excess of 80mph with a spongy suspension and strong arm bycicle style steering and then complain when their 10yo flips it and gets hurt or killed? In states with a lot of ATV sales (alaska is one) kids under 16 are forbidden to drive them on public lands or roadways. Now if you are a true beleiver in "fuckem" you go to a private lot and let yer kid get hurt, but then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Any place you can buy these things you get offers of free safety courses, after sales safety equipment like helmets etc snf sponsored riding events. Another cause of "Im too stupid to breathe so the government should do it for me"

Now the main threust of the article which is the gutting of the safety dept is fine and I agree with the need for more inspectors, labs and reporting but the usage case by the reporter in nonsensical,

Only one lab with a small room to break toys and see if the bits are small enough to choke a 3yo. Give me a break, a couple of yeasrs ago when the kids were smaller they could have come by my house and done the studies for free.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Re: my apologies, I read the exerpt not the link
My issue is that a lawyer presented an argument that wasn't supported by the agency's own data hoping to pretend the issue doesn't exist, let alone discuss what the solution should be.

So, in my opinion, this administration would rather suppress the facts to avoid having the discussion about what the appropriate mission and size is for this agency.

\ufffdMy own view is the situation is not necessarily deteriorating,\ufffd said John Gibson Mullan, the agency\ufffds director of compliance and a former lawyer for the A.T.V. industry, according to a recording. The current system of warning labels and other voluntary safety standards was working, he said. \ufffdWe would need to be very careful about making any changes.\ufffd

Robin L. Ingle, then the agency\ufffds hazard statistician and A.T.V. injury expert, was dumbfounded. Her months of research did not support Mr. Mullan\ufffds analysis. Yet she would not get to offer a rebuttal.

\ufffdHe had hijacked the presentation,\ufffd Ms. Ingle said in an interview. \ufffdHe was distorting the numbers in order to benefit industry and defeat the petition. It was almost like he still worked for them, not us.\ufffd
Seamus
New you want to discuss the data or just support the puzzled
employee or so you always tow the anti anything line? What does the data show? that atv's are dangerous? No shit sherlock. So what is your solution? A tax? make ATV users wear a diaper and a burhka?
feh,
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New The agency lawyer who wasn't scheduled to talk
hijacked the presentation and prevented the hazard expert, a statistician, from making her presentation. That is no way to treat the expert. You don't like what she is saying, don't let her go. If you don't like the type of rules the agency makes, reform don't sabotage.

The point of the article since you don't seem to have read the article is the problem being addressed was kids riding ATVs that were too big for them. The article didn't speculate any proposed solution. You want to speculate about what they were going to propose, go ahead. My point is about the disdain the administration shows for this and other regulatory agencies.

If they don't believe in regulation, they should be honest about it instead of pulling this shit.






Seamus
New Re: you want to discuss the data or just support the puzzled
While the point of the article was about how the CPSC doesn't have enough resources to do its job, the ATV example was about pediatricians and others asking the agency to do something about kids riding ATVs that are too big for them and therefore they beyond there ability. Instead of saying we don't think this is something they government should do anything about, they obfuscate. That is bullshit.

Maybe the solution is minimum height and weight requirements to get insurance for adult-size ATVs, but pretending the problem doesn't exist and circumventing whatever process they have in place is definitely not the solution.
Seamus
New so the next time your 10yo kid goes to mount an adult
sized 4 wheeler you will be on the horn to homeland security demanding action. Me, I just tell mine to get the fuck off of there, no laws required.
should change yer sig to nanny
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New I tell him to get off also. Nor would I buy him one
which is the point of the example in the article that many adults do buy adult sized ATVs for their kids to ride. And the industry's voluntary safety measures aren't working. So it seems you think it is ok for hack lawyers to sabotage the agency process and you would rather argue a point I didn't make or support. You really need to learn to read for comprehension.


Seamus
New Ah, never mind him, he's probably just posting drunk again.
Because, honest to Bog, Bill, you often talk such utter drivel here that if you aren't sauced to the gills when you're doing it, there is NO fucking excuse for it.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New maybe in the places where you live that one may not
fart without a gummint permit, several classes given by social workers and an evacuation order by the flat council, such legislation might make sense.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Thank you for proving my point again.
Hint: Was that what we were talking about?


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New it was what I was talking about, you were just displaying
naivette about how some americans value freedom more than draconian social laws.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Re: it was what I was talking about, you were just displayin
No one is talking about draconian social laws. You are the only one who framed the issue as a choice between the two extremes.
Seamus
New you cannot legislate stupidity and shouldnt try
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Re: you cannot legislate stupidity and shouldnt try
I assume you mean "you cannot legislate against stupidity".

Actually, we can and do. All the time.

Drink drive laws and gun safety laws, to name but two that exist in the USA.

Pretty much all safety legislation is designed to protect people from their own dumb selves.


Peter
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New difference being nanny et all
would like to see the burden places on the atv manufacturers not the idiots driving them.

Today we have a case where 2 kids driving at night following dad on a dirt bike and fell down an abandoned mine shaft. Keeping in mind that most of these mines are on public lands and havnt been worked in eons. Nanny would like a battalion of trial lawyers lined up to sue the manufaturer for this defect. Thats what gets my goat. Drink Driving is placed correctly on the driver not the manufacturer of booze.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New You have no idea what you are talking about
In the case of drunk driving, bars that served the driver. I am not real found of these laws, I think they can be abused.

The issue is about kids using adult sized, causing accidents and the associated health care costs. Nothing about allowing anyone to sue anybody else.
Seamus
New so why dance around the head of a pin?
In the case of drunk driving, bars that served the driver. I am not real found of these laws, I think they can be abused.
I have yet to meet a bartender who forced a patron into his car and told him to drive or else. Clear case of stupidity and the law.

The issue is about kids using adult sized, causing accidents and the associated health care costs. Nothing about allowing anyone to sue anybody else.
so present a useful solution rather than defending people who want to blame manufacturers.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New You are the one doing the dancing
Bartenders and others who servers who sell alcohol are supposed to not over serve. If a bartender makes a reasonable effort to keep someone they sold alcohol to from drinking and driving, then shouldn't be liable. It doesn't always work that out way.

You are assuming that the doctors and others asking the CPSC to do something, and the CPSC itself, about kids riding adult sized ATVs are blaming manufacturers. The only thing the article addressed was the fact the voluntary program wasn't working, not that it was the manufacturers fault that the program wasn't working. The lawyer sabotaged the process before any talk of a better solution was possible. The was the point of the article and that is why I posted the link.

I don't have a solution, but I know we are not going to find a solution if the administration sabotages the process in place to find a solution rather than trying to fix the process.

Again, I don't think they want to fix the process, they need it as a straw man to argue against, rather like you.
Seamus
New Re: you cannot legislate stupidity and shouldnt try
As I am sure you are aware, you are missing the point. The point is the abuse of the process the agency uses to decide what, if any, actions to take. This far into this administration, they should be honest about how they feel about regulation. But they aren't honest markets being better able to regulate themselves because they really believe it. If they did they wouldn't be afraid of debate. But, IMO they don't stand up and say they are against regulation because they want to be free to regulate if they feel they need to.

Nothing in the article indicated they had any specific regulation in mind. But what the lawyer did accomplish was to short circuit any discussion of the cost to society, not just the victims, of this particular brand of stupidity and what can be done about it. Maybe they would have started with an increased public awareness campaign. But, expecting the industry to voluntaryily forgo sales growth for the sake of safety doesn't work either.

Seamus
New there you go, finally admitting it
But, expecting the industry to voluntaryily forgo sales growth for the sake of safety doesn't work either.
so the industry must be forced to forego sales to prevent injuries by misuse by children.

That is easily fixed. Use the equestrian activities law and adapt it.
UNDER THE (INSERT STATE HERE) EQUINE ACTIVITY LIABILTIY ACT, AN EQUINE PROFESSIONAL IS NOT LIABLE FOR AN INJUJRY TO OR THE DEATH OF A PARTICIPANT IN AN EQUINE ACTIVITY RESULTING FROM AN INHERENT RISK OF AN EQUINE ACTIVITY.

to
UNDER THE (INSERT STATE HERE) ATV ACTIVITY LIABILTIY ACT, AN ATV maufacturer or reseller/rental agent of same IS NOT LIABLE FOR AN INJUJRY TO OR THE DEATH OF A PARTICIPANT IN AN ATV ACTIVITY RESULTING FROM AN INHERENT RISK OF AN ATV ACTIVITY.
have them sign the waiver at the point of sale or rental. Now somehow I suspect you wouldnt go for such a solution

thanks,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New I would, I doubt they would
It might also need to address age and weight limits.
Seamus
     Safety Agency Faces Scrutiny Amid Changes - (Seamus) - (31)
         I agree with Mr Stratton on the daisy issue - (boxley) - (23)
             Re: I agree with Mr Stratton on the daisy issue - (Seamus) - (22)
                 Curiously, I side with Bill. - (hnick)
                 my apologies, I read the exerpt not the link - (boxley) - (20)
                     Re: my apologies, I read the exerpt not the link - (Seamus) - (19)
                         you want to discuss the data or just support the puzzled - (boxley) - (18)
                             The agency lawyer who wasn't scheduled to talk - (Seamus)
                             Re: you want to discuss the data or just support the puzzled - (Seamus) - (16)
                                 so the next time your 10yo kid goes to mount an adult - (boxley) - (15)
                                     I tell him to get off also. Nor would I buy him one - (Seamus) - (14)
                                         Ah, never mind him, he's probably just posting drunk again. - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                             maybe in the places where you live that one may not - (boxley) - (3)
                                                 Thank you for proving my point again. - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                     it was what I was talking about, you were just displaying - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         Re: it was what I was talking about, you were just displayin - (Seamus)
                                         you cannot legislate stupidity and shouldnt try -NT - (boxley) - (8)
                                             Re: you cannot legislate stupidity and shouldnt try - (pwhysall) - (4)
                                                 difference being nanny et all - (boxley) - (3)
                                                     You have no idea what you are talking about - (Seamus) - (2)
                                                         so why dance around the head of a pin? - (boxley) - (1)
                                                             You are the one doing the dancing - (Seamus)
                                             Re: you cannot legislate stupidity and shouldnt try - (Seamus) - (2)
                                                 there you go, finally admitting it - (boxley) - (1)
                                                     I would, I doubt they would - (Seamus)
         Reply to your OT comment - (Lily) - (4)
             I have never actually been to the box bar - (Seamus) - (3)
                 Well, then you are missing a real treat - (Lily) - (2)
                     Be careful, Seamus! (new thread) - (imqwerky)
                     !! (new thread) - (Lily)
         That story jumps all over the place. - (Another Scott) - (1)
             The focus of the article is the changes - (Seamus)

China.
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