Post #285,954
5/31/07 5:26:23 PM
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Signing statements
I am not saying he invented any of this crap. My view on signing statements is not that the use of signing statements is impeachable but it is just one tool this president as used to subvert the constitution and place itself as the sole interpreter of the law. Bush is using signing statements like line item vetoes. Yet the Supreme Court has held the line item vetoes are unconstitutional. In 1988, in Clinton v. New York, the High Court said a president had to veto an entire law: Even Congress, with its Line Item Veto Act, could not permit him to veto provisions he might not like. [link|http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20060113.html|John Dean at FindLaw] His use of signing statements goes well beyond what preceding presidents have used them for. Other presidents have push the line and tried to grab power from congress and the courts, but this president operated from a different perspective. Instead of trying to grab power, IMO he started his administration with the believe that the presidency already had these powers and he doesn't have to explain his view of presidential powers to anyone; including Congress. That is why he is different from other presidents and why I am treating him differently than I would treat other presidents. Congress has done anything about signing statements, so I doubt they put them in to any articles of impeachment - not that I think they are going to impeach him either.
Seamus
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Post #285,957
5/31/07 5:40:08 PM
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another rat reference, why is he an authority on anything?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #285,959
5/31/07 5:53:18 PM
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Why is he a rat? Because he felt a greater loyalty to the
country than to Nixon?
Seamus
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Post #285,960
5/31/07 6:00:58 PM
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yeah, right. He had a greater loyalty to his
virgin asshole which is why he ratted out to avoid prison. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #285,961
5/31/07 6:08:20 PM
5/31/07 6:08:36 PM
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So there is nothing he has done since then to redeem himself
in your eyes?
Seamus
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Edited by Seamus
May 31, 2007, 06:08:36 PM EDT
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Post #285,966
5/31/07 6:37:05 PM
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what has he done?
rat days [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dean|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dean] Dean pled guilty to obstruction of justice before Watergate trial judge John Sirica on November 30, 1973. He admitted supervising payments of "hush money" to the Watergate burglars, notably E. Howard Hunt, and revealed the existence of Nixon's enemies list. On August 2, 1974, Sirica handed down a sentence of one to four years in a minimum-security prison. However, when Dean surrendered himself as scheduled on September 3, he was diverted to the custody of U.S. Marshals and kept instead at Fort Holabird (near Baltimore, Maryland) in a special "safe house" holding facility primarily used for witnesses against the Mafia. He spent his days in the offices of the Watergate Special Prosecutor and testifying in the trial of Watergate conspirators Mitchell, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Robert Mardian, and Kenneth Parkinson, which concluded on January 1, 1975. Dean's lawyer moved to have his sentence reduced, and on January 8, Sirica granted the motion, adjusting Dean's sentence to time served. post rat days what has he accomplished since then, he claims to have written a book about watergate, ended up in court over it and has written about law since. He is too flawed to have an legal argument without the stench of corruption attached. Same reason I wouldnt buy into Liddy's version of what the constitution means. At least liddy wasn't a rat. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #285,970
5/31/07 6:51:55 PM
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So he shouldn't have told the truth?
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Post #285,982
5/31/07 8:01:40 PM
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he should have been building a case to get all of them
instead of rolling over like a trick when caught. I would have had a lot more respect if he had said I am respnsible but will not discuss anyone elses role. And done his time. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #285,986
5/31/07 8:42:23 PM
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Has anyone else in the US government ever done that?
I'm not aware of an example.
Isn't it better for someone to come forward and tell the truth about their illegal activities, and what they know about the illegal activities of others, than to do what, say, Scooter Libby did?
I think it's much better to come clean in sworn testimony, even if it's late. I also think his obligation to the country was much greater than to his former colleagues.
Cheers, Scott. (Who notices that Amazon's "Surprise Me" excerpt of Libby's novel [link|http://www.amazon.com/Apprentice-Novel-Lewis-Libby/dp/0312284535/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/002-5664532-8022445|The Apprentice] has some weird discussion among hunters about having their way with a deer...)
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Post #285,987
5/31/07 8:54:41 PM
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scooter did the right thing
so did Liddy, they have the courage of their convictions, even if they are wrong. Either one has priciples and stands on them or one does not. Dean clearly does not stand for anything except what is good for dean. Dean did not "come forward" he was hoisted squealing like a pig after being caught. Come forward it aint. I guess I am of a different era. You beleive what you are doing is right and stck by it. The vagaries of circumstance really shouldnt determine morals practiced. thanx. bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #285,996
5/31/07 9:35:44 PM
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Scooter lied to FBI, obstructed justice, comitted perjury.
Somehow I thought that if someone was held up as an example of standing up for the "courage of their convictions", then they should also accept the consequences.
[link|http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/files/52507_fitzgerald_sentencing_memorandum.pdf|Libby's a whining liar].
Dean [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2002/05/31/AR2005112200792.html|talked to the Senate investigators] before he was granted immunity. He understood that Nixon was damaging the country and he stood up and took the heat for testifying against a pretty [link|http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/02/13/cq/poll.html|popular president]. He served time.
For someone who's so idealistic about so many things, I'm surprised that you think that Libby's somehow honorable. It seems to me that our system of government and our judicial system cannot work if people lie under oath and obstruct justice.
But different strokes, I guess.
Cheers, Scott. ("But what about Clinton?" That's a different thread...)
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Post #286,024
6/1/07 9:34:25 AM
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"The courage of their convictions, even if they are wrong"?
That's what makes Scooter "Perjury" Libby and G. Gordon "Zippo" Liddy good guys, in your eyes??? Wow. That's just, um... Wow. (To [probably] misquote an LRPDism.)
You DO realise, of course, that that also makes Adolf a good guy, according to you? (Along with every single one of his SS henchmen -- the more unrepentant of their crimes against humanity they were, the *more* "good guys" they were, in your reasoning.)
Are you beginning to see why I've been calling you "scary" a few times, recently? Maybe you think I was kidding. If so, you are mistaken: I was not.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #286,030
6/1/07 10:50:58 AM
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principled!=good in any case
We were talking about criminal elements in government that broke many laws excluding murder. Different class than the crowd you are describing. Gleefully carrying out burglaries, paying off henchmen and then ratting out your fellow crooks makes that person a lesser being than those who gleefully carried out burglaries, henched then did their time with a no comment. Why are you scared? I cant afford to fly to DC much less finland :-) thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #286,088
6/2/07 7:33:48 PM
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Because you, and people like you, get to vote over there.
Actually, I've been scared of where the fuck you guys -- Americans, the ones who vote on who gets to be the most powerful man not only in America but the WORLD, with his finger hovering over The Button -- are taking us all ever since 2004. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice...", and all that.
You (all) voted in the Chimp-in-Chief *again*. How the fuck could anybody sane NOT be scared of you?
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #286,090
6/2/07 7:48:18 PM
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Given that the Ohio elections were probably rigged . . .
. . by Dibold, we probably didn't actually elect him for the second term, and with the Florida fiasco we may not have actually elected him to the first term either.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #286,091
6/2/07 8:27:54 PM
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Sorry, not good enough; shouldn't have been even close.
The fact that he got more than, say, ten percent, the second time around, that alone means that something's wrong as Hell over there. Heck, the fact that he even got the nomination already does.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #286,099
6/3/07 10:28:23 AM
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yer saying it was better in the old days?
only white property owners could vote senators were appointed by governors president was appointed by the electoral college which was run by the state legislators I'll bring it up during the next MLK rally and see how it flies. By the way, how come mr KGB Putin got re-elected? Case of pot and kettle etc. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #286,104
6/3/07 11:21:10 AM
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WTF are you gibbering about? Yes, of course it was! In...
...the "good old days" under, say, Clinton -- he only screwed an intern; he did *not* fuck the Constitution up the ass with a chainsaw.
Now cut it out with the stupid strawmen, willya, before everybody thinks you ARE as stupid as you're trying to sound here.
Thank you.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #286,112
6/3/07 1:29:28 PM
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clinton didnt trample the WHAT!
of course he did although not the shattering the current crew is doing. Makes me glad you lot cant vote here, thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #286,136
6/3/07 4:45:37 PM
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OK, so read it as "Clinton didn't *shatter* it" in stead.
Still makes it the good old days, compared to the total ass-reaming the current crew is giving it.
WTF is *wrong* with you, that you insist on pretending this huge difference is as nothing?!?
You might be glad, but that is precisely what has me so scared: That *you*, OTOH, *are* allowed to vote over there.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
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Post #286,015
6/1/07 6:22:56 AM
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No you tell everything you know and take the consequences
That would be impressive. Libby was, and I assume he still is, blindly loyal.
Blind loyalty has no place in a representative government.
Seamus
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Post #285,972
5/31/07 7:04:02 PM
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What I see in this analysis is -
Exactly the rationale for when..
{{ Street kid wants to get into local gang. Big kids say, OK punk - go shoot some random cop. [like, quite recently - in Sackamenna CA - killed him dead] The watching, wise-quipping gangbangers, all knowing Code-of-Silence, (having seen the latest massively popular Mafioso-deifyin Tee Vee series) - to the point of memorizing the comical-tough-lines to drop on new 13 yos:
watch. the. kid. go. out. door, clearly enroute to 1) Acceptance by this Lovely Group 2) 17 virgins -- but first: 3) Life sans parole.
And.. that's All that any One of them next Does. }}
These kids..? Not. a. RAT. in. the. bunch.
{{{Applause by The Troops}}}
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Post #285,981
5/31/07 8:00:03 PM
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so a trained lawyer is no better than a street punk?
nevermind... but you would think he would have more morals than that? nevermind,,, grumble, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #285,998
5/31/07 9:45:21 PM
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We were talking about RATS
You were saying: ~ if you TELL, you are a RAT.
And I say.. that's Mafioso doggerel (and <13 yo territory) == prior to ever Getting to any intro-to personal 'ethics' course. (The subject-topic just hasn't come up - for many.) For some - it never Does. Those last stay pre-teen for liff. Dying as winos or CIEIOs.
Some admire {{a Lot, I guess}} - those guys/psychopaths who can hold their hand in a candle flame till it smells lika a Baghdad street.. then, \ufffd l\ufffd 007, declare - the trick is in not minding..
(I could say ~~ "when you TELL" and why you tell, if.. you do tell.) But I wouldn't want to disturb your simple homily by incinerating it, prematurely - now would I?
As to Lawyers any so-called 'Profession'al? (We profess to ___ and to ___ and: pay us $Lots/hour because We Profess ___) See above. See Foulwell; see lawyer-Nixon, see the University-educated Nazis amidst the mob. See Reiser (made neat file systems though, eh?) See MBAs at Enron. Professionals - all.
Hint - a foolish consistency is
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Post #285,973
5/31/07 7:09:02 PM
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Liddy was/is psycho
Having a ghost writer and trying to protect his wife's reputation doesn't detract from his current research.
If you can find flaws in his arguments, lets hear them.
Seamus
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Post #285,980
5/31/07 7:58:38 PM
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why dont you read a real constitutional scholar
instead of a hack whose only claim to fame is to get caught breaking the law then sliming all over himself when caught. He should have done the same thing ashcroft did on his hospital bed, "thats against the law" full stop. Then he would have some gravitas in regards to constitutional law. John Hart Ely Gerry Spence Thurgood Marshal David Golove Lawrence A Tribe None of the above are lowlifes and actually have experience in something other than investment banking, mopery and ratting out fellow co-conspirators thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #286,014
6/1/07 6:17:32 AM
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Constitutional scholars
The ABA panel of constitutional scholars find Bush's use of signing statements constitutional problematic.
Tribe, while not agreeing with the panel does think that Bush's use of signing statements show that he is over stepping his constitutional authority in the signing statements by taking on Congress's role of regulating conduct of executive branch officials. Which is my I think his use of signing statements is needed to show the pattern of abuse of his office that warrants impeachment.
Seamus
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Post #286,023
6/1/07 9:12:00 AM
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just for grins, what decade of life are you in?
no obligation to answer of course. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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