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New So there is nothing he has done since then to redeem himself
in your eyes?
Seamus
Collapse Edited by Seamus May 31, 2007, 06:08:36 PM EDT
So there is nothing he has done since then to redeem himself
in you eyes?

Seamus
New what has he done?
rat days
[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dean|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dean]
Dean pled guilty to obstruction of justice before Watergate trial judge John Sirica on November 30, 1973. He admitted supervising payments of "hush money" to the Watergate burglars, notably E. Howard Hunt, and revealed the existence of Nixon's enemies list. On August 2, 1974, Sirica handed down a sentence of one to four years in a minimum-security prison. However, when Dean surrendered himself as scheduled on September 3, he was diverted to the custody of U.S. Marshals and kept instead at Fort Holabird (near Baltimore, Maryland) in a special "safe house" holding facility primarily used for witnesses against the Mafia. He spent his days in the offices of the Watergate Special Prosecutor and testifying in the trial of Watergate conspirators Mitchell, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Robert Mardian, and Kenneth Parkinson, which concluded on January 1, 1975. Dean's lawyer moved to have his sentence reduced, and on January 8, Sirica granted the motion, adjusting Dean's sentence to time served.
post rat days what has he accomplished since then, he claims to have written a book about watergate, ended up in court over it and has written about law since. He is too flawed to have an legal argument without the stench of corruption attached. Same reason I wouldnt buy into Liddy's version of what the constitution means. At least liddy wasn't a rat.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New So he shouldn't have told the truth?
New he should have been building a case to get all of them
instead of rolling over like a trick when caught.
I would have had a lot more respect if he had said I am respnsible but will not discuss anyone elses role.
And done his time.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Has anyone else in the US government ever done that?
I'm not aware of an example.

Isn't it better for someone to come forward and tell the truth about their illegal activities, and what they know about the illegal activities of others, than to do what, say, Scooter Libby did?

I think it's much better to come clean in sworn testimony, even if it's late. I also think his obligation to the country was much greater than to his former colleagues.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who notices that Amazon's "Surprise Me" excerpt of Libby's novel [link|http://www.amazon.com/Apprentice-Novel-Lewis-Libby/dp/0312284535/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/002-5664532-8022445|The Apprentice] has some weird discussion among hunters about having their way with a deer...)
New scooter did the right thing
so did Liddy, they have the courage of their convictions, even if they are wrong. Either one has priciples and stands on them or one does not. Dean clearly does not stand for anything except what is good for dean.
Dean did not "come forward" he was hoisted squealing like a pig after being caught. Come forward it aint. I guess I am of a different era. You beleive what you are doing is right and stck by it. The vagaries of circumstance really shouldnt determine morals practiced.
thanx.
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Scooter lied to FBI, obstructed justice, comitted perjury.
Somehow I thought that if someone was held up as an example of standing up for the "courage of their convictions", then they should also accept the consequences.

[link|http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/files/52507_fitzgerald_sentencing_memorandum.pdf|Libby's a whining liar].

Dean [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2002/05/31/AR2005112200792.html|talked to the Senate investigators] before he was granted immunity. He understood that Nixon was damaging the country and he stood up and took the heat for testifying against a pretty [link|http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/02/13/cq/poll.html|popular president]. He served time.

For someone who's so idealistic about so many things, I'm surprised that you think that Libby's somehow honorable. It seems to me that our system of government and our judicial system cannot work if people lie under oath and obstruct justice.

But different strokes, I guess.

Cheers,
Scott.
("But what about Clinton?" That's a different thread...)
New "The courage of their convictions, even if they are wrong"?
That's what makes Scooter "Perjury" Libby and G. Gordon "Zippo" Liddy good guys, in your eyes??? Wow. That's just, um... Wow. (To [probably] misquote an LRPDism.)

You DO realise, of course, that that also makes Adolf a good guy, according to you? (Along with every single one of his SS henchmen -- the more unrepentant of their crimes against humanity they were, the *more* "good guys" they were, in your reasoning.)

Are you beginning to see why I've been calling you "scary" a few times, recently? Maybe you think I was kidding. If so, you are mistaken: I was not.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New principled!=good in any case
We were talking about criminal elements in government that broke many laws excluding murder. Different class than the crowd you are describing. Gleefully carrying out burglaries, paying off henchmen and then ratting out your fellow crooks makes that person a lesser being than those who gleefully carried out burglaries, henched then did their time with a no comment. Why are you scared? I cant afford to fly to DC much less finland :-)
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Because you, and people like you, get to vote over there.
Actually, I've been scared of where the fuck you guys -- Americans, the ones who vote on who gets to be the most powerful man not only in America but the WORLD, with his finger hovering over The Button -- are taking us all ever since 2004. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice...", and all that.

You (all) voted in the Chimp-in-Chief *again*. How the fuck could anybody sane NOT be scared of you?


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New Given that the Ohio elections were probably rigged . . .
. . by Dibold, we probably didn't actually elect him for the second term, and with the Florida fiasco we may not have actually elected him to the first term either.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Sorry, not good enough; shouldn't have been even close.
The fact that he got more than, say, ten percent, the second time around, that alone means that something's wrong as Hell over there. Heck, the fact that he even got the nomination already does.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New yer saying it was better in the old days?
only white property owners could vote
senators were appointed by governors
president was appointed by the electoral college which was run by the state legislators
I'll bring it up during the next MLK rally and see how it flies.
By the way, how come mr KGB Putin got re-elected? Case of pot and kettle etc.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New WTF are you gibbering about? Yes, of course it was! In...
...the "good old days" under, say, Clinton -- he only screwed an intern; he did *not* fuck the Constitution up the ass with a chainsaw.

Now cut it out with the stupid strawmen, willya, before everybody thinks you ARE as stupid as you're trying to sound here.

Thank you.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New clinton didnt trample the WHAT!
of course he did although not the shattering the current crew is doing. Makes me glad you lot cant vote here,
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New OK, so read it as "Clinton didn't *shatter* it" in stead.
Still makes it the good old days, compared to the total ass-reaming the current crew is giving it.

WTF is *wrong* with you, that you insist on pretending this huge difference is as nothing?!?

You might be glad, but that is precisely what has me so scared: That *you*, OTOH, *are* allowed to vote over there.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New No you tell everything you know and take the consequences
That would be impressive. Libby was, and I assume he still is, blindly loyal.

Blind loyalty has no place in a representative government.
Seamus
New What I see in this analysis is -
Exactly the rationale for when..

{{
Street kid wants to get into local gang.
Big kids say, OK punk - go shoot some random cop.
[like, quite recently - in Sackamenna CA - killed him dead]
The watching, wise-quipping gangbangers, all knowing Code-of-Silence,
(having seen the latest massively popular Mafioso-deifyin Tee Vee series) - to the point of memorizing the comical-tough-lines to drop on new 13 yos:

watch. the. kid. go. out. door, clearly enroute to
1) Acceptance by this Lovely Group
2) 17 virgins -- but first:
3) Life sans parole.

And.. that's All that any One of them next Does.
}}

These kids..? Not. a. RAT. in. the. bunch.

{{{Applause by The Troops}}}

New so a trained lawyer is no better than a street punk?
nevermind...
but you would think he would have more morals than that? nevermind,,,
grumble,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New We were talking about RATS
You were saying: ~ if you TELL, you are a RAT.

And I say.. that's Mafioso doggerel (and <13 yo territory) == prior to ever Getting to any intro-to personal 'ethics' course. (The subject-topic just hasn't come up - for many.) For some - it never Does. Those last stay pre-teen for liff. Dying as winos or CIEIOs.

Some admire {{a Lot, I guess}} - those guys/psychopaths who can hold their hand in a candle flame till it smells lika a Baghdad street.. then, \ufffd l\ufffd 007, declare - the trick is in not minding..

(I could say ~~ "when you TELL" and why you tell, if.. you do tell.)
But I wouldn't want to disturb your simple homily by incinerating it, prematurely - now would I?

As to Lawyers any so-called 'Profession'al?
(We profess to ___ and to ___ and: pay us $Lots/hour because We Profess ___)
See above.
See Foulwell; see lawyer-Nixon, see the University-educated Nazis amidst the mob. See Reiser (made neat file systems though, eh?)
See MBAs at Enron. Professionals - all.



Hint - a foolish consistency is
New Liddy was/is psycho
Having a ghost writer and trying to protect his wife's reputation doesn't detract from his current research.

If you can find flaws in his arguments, lets hear them.
Seamus
New why dont you read a real constitutional scholar
instead of a hack whose only claim to fame is to get caught breaking the law then sliming all over himself when caught. He should have done the same thing ashcroft did on his hospital bed, "thats against the law" full stop. Then he would have some gravitas in regards to constitutional law.
John Hart Ely
Gerry Spence
Thurgood Marshal
David Golove
Lawrence A Tribe
None of the above are lowlifes and actually have experience in something other than investment banking, mopery and ratting out fellow co-conspirators
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Constitutional scholars
The ABA panel of constitutional scholars find Bush's use of signing statements constitutional problematic.

Tribe, while not agreeing with the panel does think that Bush's use of signing statements show that he is over stepping his constitutional authority in the signing statements by taking on Congress's role of regulating conduct of executive branch officials. Which is my I think his use of signing statements is needed to show the pattern of abuse of his office that warrants impeachment.
Seamus
New just for grins, what decade of life are you in?
no obligation to answer of course. thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
     Democrats Trusted More Than Republicans on 10 Key Issues - (lincoln) - (88)
         sounds like the sheeple are truly stupid - (boxley) - (87)
             Sure they are; they voted for Bush AGAIN in '04. - (CRConrad) - (86)
                 read me in my posts suomi boy :-) -NT - (boxley) - (85)
                     I did. You keep defending him. That *scares* me. -NT - (CRConrad) - (84)
                         go back further, I explicitely stated who I would vote for - (boxley) - (83)
                             What,you saying you *don't* defend him at every opportunity? - (CRConrad) - (82)
                                 I dislike the " I's hates bush so It must be impeachable" - (boxley) - (81)
                                     Good nutshell -NT - (bepatient)
                                     Not speaking for anyone else, but I think GWB has committed - (Seamus) - (79)
                                         of course the idiot is impeachable - (boxley) - (71)
                                             Actually if you read the document - (Seamus) - (68)
                                                 wrong on both counts - (boxley) - (57)
                                                     No not wrong. - (Seamus) - (56)
                                                         again, I said Jackson vs supreme court - (boxley) - (55)
                                                             Yes you did but it is less relevant to this than you think - (Seamus) - (53)
                                                                 I can name quite a few presidents who did more harm to this - (boxley) - (52)
                                                                     Oh Well, Then - - - - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                         re-read my post - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                             Everyone does Bill - (Seamus)
                                                                     Where to begin - (Seamus) - (48)
                                                                         nope, there is a laundry list of impeachable items - (boxley) - (47)
                                                                             We have been over this - (Seamus) - (46)
                                                                                 Im curious about your stance on signing statements - (boxley) - (45)
                                                                                     In his signings statements he has basically said he isn't - (Seamus) - (44)
                                                                                         I beleive you as I have read the same - (boxley) - (43)
                                                                                             Impeachment isn't the first response but I added them - (Seamus) - (42)
                                                                                                 the democrats are too concerned about getting the whole hog - (boxley)
                                                                                                 Signing statements go back to Monroe - (bepatient) - (40)
                                                                                                     Minor nit - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                                                                                                         John Dean had an interesting commentary on them. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                                                                             GWB has taken this... - (bepatient)
                                                                                                             Rats and constitutional law dont exactly go together -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Shooting the messenger (Dean) doesn't help the argument... -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                     There is a line item veto. - (hnick) - (34)
                                                                                                         2 things - (bepatient) - (33)
                                                                                                             Heh! - (hnick) - (3)
                                                                                                                 as a country we have survived worse -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                                                     Think Hookes modulus - (hnick) - (1)
                                                                                                                         +5 Originality - an apt scienterrific application of Hooke! - (Ashton)
                                                                                                             Signing statements - (Seamus) - (27)
                                                                                                                 another rat reference, why is he an authority on anything? -NT - (boxley) - (26)
                                                                                                                     Why is he a rat? Because he felt a greater loyalty to the - (Seamus) - (25)
                                                                                                                         yeah, right. He had a greater loyalty to his - (boxley) - (24)
                                                                                                                             So there is nothing he has done since then to redeem himself - (Seamus) - (23)
                                                                                                                                 what has he done? - (boxley) - (22)
                                                                                                                                     So he shouldn't have told the truth? -NT - (Another Scott) - (14)
                                                                                                                                         he should have been building a case to get all of them - (boxley) - (13)
                                                                                                                                             Has anyone else in the US government ever done that? - (Another Scott) - (11)
                                                                                                                                                 scooter did the right thing - (boxley) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                     Scooter lied to FBI, obstructed justice, comitted perjury. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                                                     "The courage of their convictions, even if they are wrong"? - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                         principled!=good in any case - (boxley) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                             Because you, and people like you, get to vote over there. - (CRConrad) - (6)
                                                                                                                                                                 Given that the Ohio elections were probably rigged . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (5)
                                                                                                                                                                     Sorry, not good enough; shouldn't have been even close. - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                                         yer saying it was better in the old days? - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                             WTF are you gibbering about? Yes, of course it was! In... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                                 clinton didnt trample the WHAT! - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                     OK, so read it as "Clinton didn't *shatter* it" in stead. - (CRConrad)
                                                                                                                                             No you tell everything you know and take the consequences - (Seamus)
                                                                                                                                     What I see in this analysis is - - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                                                                                         so a trained lawyer is no better than a street punk? - (boxley)
                                                                                                                                         We were talking about RATS - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                     Liddy was/is psycho - (Seamus) - (3)
                                                                                                                                         why dont you read a real constitutional scholar - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                                                                             Constitutional scholars - (Seamus) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 just for grins, what decade of life are you in? - (boxley)
                                                                                                             duplicate -NT - (Seamus)
                                                             The pre-impeachment hearings re Nixon - (Ashton)
                                                 Just to be clear - (Seamus) - (9)
                                                     the inteligence estimates need to be publicised - (boxley) - (8)
                                                         There is a lot to the intelligence side than just the PDB - (Seamus) - (7)
                                                             absolutely, you just pointed out the problem - (boxley) - (6)
                                                                 Yes he can - (Seamus) - (5)
                                                                     not without evidence you cant -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                                                                         This is the crux of the matter - (Seamus) - (3)
                                                                             I would expect future presidents to - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                 And vis a vis a Congress that is a rubber stamp for... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                                                                     yup, strong beleiver in tight gridlock -NT - (boxley)
                                             He is exactly who he was when he was elected -NT - (Seamus)
                                             The "not for"s are bs. - (Silverlock)
                                         He's impeachable...but he won't be impeached. - (Simon_Jester) - (3)
                                             Sure! - (jb4) - (2)
                                                 s /Al Gonzales/Jeb Bush/ :-/ -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     Jeb ain't **that** stupid! -NT - (jb4)
                                         one other thing, there isnt 60 votes so by your definition - (boxley) - (2)
                                             Not yet there isn't, but there's still time - (Seamus)
                                             Technically speaking - (Simon_Jester)

I'm very sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue with you unless you've paid.
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