Post #278,648
3/18/07 4:08:33 AM
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Talk to a psychologist.
Especially one who's been one for some little while. They will tell you (or should tell you) that a lot of people want to "know what's going on", to answer big questions about where their life is going and what they're here on Earth for. The sort of things Religion has had a go at filling for centuries.
Wade, who personally had that kind of exchange only recently.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
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-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
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Post #278,654
3/18/07 6:49:24 AM
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But is it genetic?
That is the question that I find interesting. Is there an advantage to the need to understand, or least have an explanation for, the supernatural that was advantageous for humans? Was there a gene, or genes, resonpsible for this behavior?
Seamus
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Post #278,657
3/18/07 7:40:02 AM
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It was/is advantageous to some.
Consider the accumulation of power and wealth that has occurred with churches of all faiths. Clear advantage. Whether that translates into a genetic imperative, I dunno.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #278,668
3/18/07 9:56:37 AM
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It it is genetic
Going out on a limb, if it is genetic it goes back to the beginning of man, before religion and churches, to man's first attempts to understand the world around him.
Anyway, the nytimes article was very interesting and while it has been archived, it seems to be accessible here:
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/magazine/04evolution.t.html?ei=5090&en=43cfb46824423cea&ex=1330664400&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all|http://www.nytimes.c...ss&pagewanted=all]
"Which is the better biological explanation for a belief in God \ufffd evolutionary adaptation or neurological accident? Is there something about the cognitive functioning of humans that makes us receptive to belief in a supernatural deity? And if scientists are able to explain God, what then? Is explaining religion the same thing as explaining it away? Are the nonbelievers right, and is religion at its core an empty undertaking, a misdirection, a vestigial artifact of a primitive mind? Or are the believers right, and does the fact that we have the mental capacities for discerning God suggest that it was God who put them there?
In short, are we hard-wired to believe in God? And if we are, how and why did that happen?"
Seamus
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Post #278,677
3/18/07 11:19:48 AM
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think about it, do chimps sit around discussing imagination?
or do they exist for eating crapping sleeping and sex?
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #278,681
3/18/07 11:27:41 AM
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what do chimps think about
Just because there communications skills are not as advanced as ours, does it mean they don't think about where they came from?
Seamus
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Post #278,691
3/18/07 12:12:48 PM
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nope, spent a pleasant hour with npr while a english major
explained that chimps in fact do not.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #278,699
3/18/07 1:02:03 PM
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I wasn't expecting an answer
But, then what do chimps have to do with a question about human genetics? If it is genetic it happened after the evolutionary split.
Seamus
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Post #278,766
3/18/07 9:47:24 PM
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what evolutionary split? :-)
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #278,767
3/18/07 10:15:02 PM
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A better question might be, What does Ballmer think about?
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/18/AR2007031801130_pf.html|Washington Post]: Monday, March 19, 2007; A06
When Emory University primatologist Frans de Waal read a news story that said Microsoft's chief executive, Steve Ballmer, had hurled a chair across the room on hearing an employee was going to work for rival Google, the scientist immediately made a connection with his own research: "When I see such behavior, I think of a chimpanzee."
Another time, a researcher that de Waal knew told him that whenever she chatted with another scientist in the hallway, her boss would get upset. He would later drop by her office and tell her she ought to stay clear of that person.
"He was constantly interfering whenever she had a contact with an important person," de Waal said. "Chimpanzees also divide and rule. You have an alpha male, and he will try to keep his supporters away from his rivals. His supporters are in trouble if they groom one of his rivals."
[...]
Over the past two centuries, people have had to disabuse themselves about various ideologies asserting that humans are fundamentally different from other animals. Biologists have shown that our arms and legs and organs have long evolutionary histories. Beliefs about the uniqueness of human behavior might well be the last bastion of our superiority complex, but research by de Waal and many others suggests that even this redoubt may be crumbling.
"I have done studies of reconciliation and coalition strategies in chimpanzees," de Waal said. "Business managers tell me that reminds them so much of what people do."
[...] I assume boxley's comment is about the same researcher, but I didn't hear it so I don't know for sure. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #278,694
3/18/07 12:37:38 PM
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We are God
We create our own subjective realities.
God. Karma. Chi. Qi. Chakras. The Holy Spirit. Quantum physics. All the same thing. That good old universal metaphysical energy that connects us all and molds our realities.
God is there if we create him.
Chew on that for awhile.
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Post #278,700
3/18/07 1:04:20 PM
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We create our own God
But did we do so because we have a genetic need to explain the supernatural? Or is a result of civilization or some other factor?
Seamus
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Post #278,704
3/18/07 1:18:47 PM
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No. We create are own reality.
I've created my own subjective reality. My consciousness is the creator. Consciousness is God. You only exist because I perceive you to be there. I created YOU.
It has nothing to do with genetics or culture or the supernatural.
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Post #278,706
3/18/07 1:38:11 PM
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My reality involves...
...lots of college basketball at the moment. And if I really do posses god like qualities, Texas and Texas A&M will be in the final four!
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Post #278,707
3/18/07 1:42:47 PM
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If you think it, it will come.
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Post #278,754
3/18/07 8:26:39 PM
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Think of me often then, please.
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Post #278,757
3/18/07 8:52:07 PM
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<phantom type="opera">Think of me softly ...</phantom>
===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #278,772
3/18/07 10:43:48 PM
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Will do
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Post #278,761
3/18/07 9:08:52 PM
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God help us all...
...sayeth the New Messican!
;-)
jb4
"It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment."
— George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07)
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Post #278,768
3/18/07 10:27:38 PM
3/18/07 10:28:29 PM
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Depends on the state of your Thetans.
[link|http://www.firstchurchofxenu.com/|http://www.firstchurchofxenu.com/]
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Edited by imric
March 18, 2007, 10:28:29 PM EDT
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Post #278,708
3/18/07 2:08:03 PM
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So I get to send my complaints to you?
Do you prefer to see them here? email? fax? Or are you going to read my mind?
Seamus
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Post #278,716
3/18/07 2:44:24 PM
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Well, let's think this through.
In a true subjective reality model, you dont exist, so therefore you have no mind for me to read. For the sake of argument let's pretend you do exist and I am a manifestation of YOUR thoughts and consciousness. I am whoever you want me to be. If you want to worship me I will be happy to be worshiped. And being the control freak that I am, the thought of being Queen of the Universe in your reality is a wet dream come true.
The complaint department is open.
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Post #278,718
3/18/07 2:57:03 PM
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Is this all there is?
I make you the queen of my reality and you get a wet dream. What do I get out of it?
Seamus
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Post #278,725
3/18/07 3:29:50 PM
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Isnt that enough?
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Post #278,726
3/18/07 3:42:34 PM
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What if it isn't?
Seamus
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Post #278,734
3/18/07 4:26:40 PM
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It works for me.
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Post #278,737
3/18/07 4:37:58 PM
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Guess I will have to make it work for me!
Seamus
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Post #278,773
3/18/07 10:45:08 PM
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It's good to be queen.
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Post #278,881
3/19/07 11:13:33 PM
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By Jove, I think.. I think..
She's Got it.
{scratch scratch}
But since ...
[When Rama, seated on the lily pad, opens eyes: a Universe appears]
[Closes eyes: a Universe disappears]
..strongly implying that [each of 'us' fanciful musings] be no more than Rama's Dreamstate creations..
Well, then - -
[In the words of YAN sage, a modern one: "I was never born.. how then, can I 'die'?"]
..thus, while 'the unexamined life is not worth living' (to coin a phrase)
Let us then heed Meher Baba, who was fond of saying, Dont Worry.. Be Happy!
Let us liquidate some local cathedral, use the proceeds to buy a yellow Ferrari 350 Convertible and ... kick some ass!
ie
living in an illusion, bunky? Make lemonade.
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Post #278,886
3/19/07 11:28:00 PM
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But . . but . . but . . .
. . but Ferraris are supposed to be red - you heretic!
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #278,890
3/19/07 11:47:42 PM
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Easy: contrarian Ferrari owners give good head ;^>
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Post #278,916
3/20/07 9:15:12 AM
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Yep. It's my new philosphy
Groovy, isnt it?
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Post #278,705
3/18/07 1:18:53 PM
3/18/07 1:19:33 PM
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Dupe. Ignore. Fast fingers.
Edited by bionerd
March 18, 2007, 01:19:33 PM EDT
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Post #278,784
3/19/07 1:57:48 AM
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I've killed mine - as an example to the rest of you
I4 NOW!
Impeach, Indict, Incarcerate, Inject
Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice
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Post #278,796
3/19/07 6:28:24 AM
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Maybe that's why you're so cranky
Go on. Get a God. You know you wanna.
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Post #278,872
3/19/07 10:46:23 PM
3/19/07 10:52:29 PM
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If you meet the Buddha on the way, kill him.
I4 NOW!
Impeach, Indict, Incarcerate, Inject
Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice
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Post #278,874
3/19/07 10:59:59 PM
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No way, man
I like Buddha. You introduced me to him, if you recall.
Buddha..Jesus..who else is on your hit list?
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Post #278,876
3/19/07 11:03:06 PM
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Sigh - its a koan
[link|http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Ykillbud.htm|http://www.globalser...arlo/Ykillbud.htm]
I4 NOW!
Impeach, Indict, Incarcerate, Inject
Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice
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Post #278,878
3/19/07 11:04:41 PM
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Tricky
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Post #278,884
3/19/07 11:17:55 PM
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OT: a most succinct, apt, saucy sig, se\ufffdor. Count me in..
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Post #278,711
3/18/07 2:14:11 PM
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Which genes do that, then?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
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Post #278,721
3/18/07 3:09:42 PM
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It is just one theory
But it is an interesting theory to me. Were you able to read the article?
Seamus
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Post #278,659
3/18/07 8:03:57 AM
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I don't know.
It wasn't part of the conversation I had.
However, I have heard or read something in the last few months that suggested it might be, but I would have no idea where it was. I can barely remember what it was, although I remember the suggested result was nebulous as it came out of a quite different study. I think it also surprised the researchers.
I've seen people argue that it's not genetic but there's something in 'what we are' that makes us tend to be like that. Perhaps it's something to do with sapience. Or perhaps our desire to tell stories. Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart (co-authors of the Science of Discworld books) seem to think so and make some good arguments for this. It seems to be part of our ability to think at different levels of abstraction, such as how we can use a knife without having to think about how the edge of the blade can cut the meat. But they way they explain it, we use this at a considerably more sophisticated level to convey knowledge in a method they call 'lies-to-'. A really good example is Newtonian physics which are good enough for a lot of engineering, but are actually not the whole story. And when the story breaks down, we have Relativity or Quantum Physics to explain things.
This story-telling desire, coupled with a human desire to find out what makes things tick can not only encourage hard science, but also many other things, such as creative accounting or a better breakfast cereal. Or theology.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
|
-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
|
Post #278,662
3/18/07 9:03:33 AM
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Not sure if this addresses it, but
The tendency to ascribe intelligent activity to non-intelligent natural phenomenon is pretty universal, which then leads to the birth of gods in our minds.
This is supposedly a survival mechanism. If the caveman saw the bushes blowing in the breeze, he could assume it is either a bear about to eat him or nothing to worry about. Those that always worried about the bear would survive, even at the cost of running scared from the wind 99% of the time. Those that did'nt worry saved energy but were eventually all eaten.
Which in turn created the ability for us to feel "spooked", when we saw swirling leaves. Now we KNOW is is just the wind, but a piece of us isn't sure. And at that point we go: Hmm - maybe is is my dead ancestor/loved one/enemy/god of wind.
And then gods are born.
Next step is to convince others, and then in a bit you have a religion.
There was a pretty good article on this a couple of weeks ago, which I'm too lazy to google up right now - got to head out the door.
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Post #278,712
3/18/07 2:19:17 PM
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I would think not.
I had a history professor some 35+- years ago who spent some weeks on the subject. I found it interesting so I still remember the basics of his argument. I don't have all the data that he presented to support his thesis but the fundamentals go like this:
Religion is a development of civilization. There is no common belief system until you have large numbers of people who interact with each other. Nomads and hunter-gathers and such have beliefs but don't formalize it because everything is based on their own experience.
Civilization always begins at river deltas because that is where the best soil gathers and it is easier to generate good crops. Once people start taking ownership and responsibility for food sources you have the basis for a civilization.
Leaders emerge, usually because they can make everybody else believe that they are more likely to be correct than them. In an agrarian society, knowing the flood times of the river are critical. The brighter leaders, who can predict the flood schedule, can also make guesses on other things with some authority. At this point it is good to have a god. The god only talks directly to the leader and is the authority behind the guesses. This means that the leader doesn't have to explain a lot or convince the sheeple. God said it, I believe it, you do it. Now comes the fun part...
If you have a river like the Tigris-Euphrates, which has an erratic flooding schedule, the god(s) CAN'T be wrong; they're pissed off because the sheeple did something wrong. You end up with an angry, vengeful deity with no sense of humor whatsoever. If you have a river like the Nile, where you can set your watch on the flood times, you end up with fairly non-hostile animistic gods. Vagaries of nature are just whimsy of the deities. In the long run, the god(s) are just an authority figure that can be used as a control mechanism. In societies where other control mechanisms are stronger, gods tend to be less defined and powerful. They are still a good black box way for people to explain things that don't make normal sense to them.
That is a very rough overview of his thesis. He presented a lot of data on expansion of civilization and related it back to human behavior patterns. I found it both interesting and persuasive. YMMV.
The profs name was Dr. Faust. He was a lawyer who was clobbered in the McCarthy era, who subsequently went back to get a doctorate in history. Interesting guy. One of my favorite professors.
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Post #278,715
3/18/07 2:41:31 PM
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Faust!
He must have gotten a lot of grief for that name! :-)
Thanks for the summary. It makes great sense to me.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #278,735
3/18/07 4:28:29 PM
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That's why I included his name
At the time, I found it kinda ironic that somebody with his handle would have an agnostic view of religion, but declined to mention it to him...
Very interesting guy. Google turns up nothing on him. I am saddened to think he may have just faded away. Even if he was wrong, he made students think and open horizons.
On the other paw, how many people can say that Dr. Faust was one of their favorite professors? If nothing else, it's good for parties and the internet...
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Post #278,896
3/20/07 12:36:22 AM
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Love. It.
And congrats for a decently scanning retelling, of an obviously Interesting prof's thesis.
Heh - it is said that the 'mind' works entirely on 'associations' | metaphor
(including.. All the senses - even and maybe even, especially - that of smell.)
(Early experiences, later vividly recalled: Prove that last..)
Delta:
rich, loamy, earthy environs
[-] Excluded: math, as in 'change' ~ dV/dt - only geeky insubstantial thought, there!
The Delta of Venus
-- Anais Nin
nuff said
{chortle}
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Post #278,731
3/18/07 4:14:03 PM
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This seems to be about how religions spread
Even if you don't have religions till large groups of people amass, what happens to the small groups of people? Do you not think about the supernatural? If they do, what does that mean?
It doesn't appear to address the issue of whether there is a human need for religion that is genetic.
Seamus
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Post #278,738
3/18/07 4:44:26 PM
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That's the qualification
If you have small groups of people that don't interact with others, they will have limited or nil religions. If they interact with other groups (think tribes) then you still have a larger population, albeit disbursed.
As long as you have intelligent beings, there will be speculation about the unknown. Only when there is a leadership structure, is there a need to have a pat answer to explain the ineffable. The easiest answer is a black box. Historically, the box is called $deity.
I don't think it any more genetic than general human nature. Which is kind of like saying herd animals tend to herd. It's just a tool. The Chinese had warlords; hundreds of gods, but who cared? Pray to the kitchen god, but watch out for the warlord. Different values based on the most likely way to survive.
Just my 0.02
Hugh
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