It changes nothing

Post #269,547

10/5/06 6:24:19 PM

It changes nothing

not even my opinion of the incident.

The fact of it taking a life of its own is not even outside of reach of my current posts regarding the "jackass" aspect of this.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #269,551

by imric

10/5/06 6:41:16 PM

So - YOU say it had an effect...

...but it "changes nothing".

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #269,556

by bepatient

10/5/06 6:52:32 PM

Nothing of my opinion on the matter.

Period.

Because I doubt the sincerity for which those here seem to feel inclined to attach to the man.

Those in search of a hero will find one. Those in search of a cause will find one. As it relates to this matter, I feel no compulsion in either direction.

I don't 1) think this person was embarking on anything other than a prank 2) think that the over-reaction of the TSA agent is indicative of an overall trend and 3) feel taht the incident was anything other than a jerk meets jerk occurrence that, grace a l'internet, has become the stuff of legend (albeit a current legend).

The "effect" is self evident. If I thought the initial act an abberation...so then the simple trend back to normalcy will now be perceived by those searching for the hero and the cause as "success".

We simply now have a new website telling all newfound kip bashers to arms.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #269,559

by drewk

10/5/06 7:19:55 PM

Since you've laid it out so clearly ...

I don't 1) think this person was embarking on anything other than a prank

You keep calling it a "jackass type prank". If they had done it, they would have worn 6-inch high platform shoes with what looks like a fuse coming out of it. They would have agressively challenged the screener and verbally attacked him personally. That's a jackass prank. This was a silent expression of a political opinion.

2) think that the over-reaction of the TSA agent is indicative of an overall trend

Depends on what trend you're talking about. Are airport screeners inconveniencing lots of people with arbitrary rules that don't actually increase safety? Yes. Are they doing it because they've been told to by their superiors? Yes. Which makes it more than a trend, it's a policy.

and 3) feel taht the incident was anything other than a jerk meets jerk occurrence that, grace a l'internet, has become the stuff of legend (albeit a current legend).

If by "jerk" you mean "guy making a political statement", and by "jerk" you mean "government representative with arrest authority", they yeah, I guess so.

===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #269,571

by bepatient

10/5/06 8:42:17 PM

10/5/06 8:44:53 PM

Nope, you still don't get it.

You are giving the guy instant credit as...

"the guy making a political statement".

I DO NOT. (yes...that is the end result...but that, I do not believe, was the intent...based upon the posts)

Read the first. Read the pre-links. He thought it would be "funny" to try something one of his "fellow" message board guys posted.

He did not start by saying "I'm out to send my message".

So...given this as my starting point...and the fact that there aren't hundreds of thousands of more examples of aggregious violations of civil liberties occuring in a system that processes 20 million passengers a day...I'd say its a case of prankster meets asshole. Nothing more. Nothing less. The man was not arrested. Not detained without a phone call. Not classified as a "enemy combatant".

In fact, he really wasn't treated much worse that someone who has to randomly undergo a secondary scan...thanks to all of the other "thou shalt nots" placed on the TSA.

Tell you what...lets just get rid of airport security checks...since they do nothing...they are just a set of "arbitrary rules that don't actually increase safety". So making them vanish shouldn't have any effect either, should it?

PS...in an absolutely perfect world...I would love to have every single person given authority be wiser, more patient, more forgiving...and...damn it...just all be all around nice guys. But...it ain't perfect...and the odds of getting a jerk pretty much mirror the odds of finding one in general pop...(read...pretty good lately)

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Edited by bepatient Oct. 5, 2006, 08:44:53 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #269,575

by drewk

10/5/06 8:56:54 PM

Straw man

Tell you what...lets just get rid of airport security checks...since they do nothing...they are just a set of "arbitrary rules that don't actually increase safety".

No, just get rid of the arbitrary rules that don't actually increase safety. You know, just like you quoted. But by all means, keep the effective security measures. I didn't say otherwise.

===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #269,608

by bepatient

10/6/06 8:12:36 AM

Which ones are those exactly?

Taking of your shoes? Incidents of bombs in shoes HAVE occurred.

Restiction of liquids?

Liquid bombs have been used.

Which rules, exactly????

And...their arbitrary nature...and the fact that they change...is [link|http://www.tsa.gov/approach/unpredictability.shtm|part of the process.]

And, if extending your statements to their logical yet ridculous extreme is straw man...then I'm with Dorithy on the yellow brick road all the way.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #269,717

by drewk

10/6/06 8:06:33 PM

Unpredictability has nothing to do with it

Remember when we couldn't carry nail clippers? But it's not like they surprised you with it, so you can't call it unpredictable.

And liquids are no good, but there are far more explosive solids, with bigger bang per size. But we'll prohibit liquids because people have heard about it. Prohibiting them makes it look like we're doing something.

===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #269,729

by bepatient

10/6/06 11:17:35 PM

Ok.

So suggest we prohibit all carry on baggage.

Solves TSA issues of what to restrict or what not to restrict AND the issue of writing on plastic bags...since nobody will have any to write on.

You've solved the whole issue. Congrats!

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #269,730

by Another Scott

10/6/06 11:21:43 PM

I guess you haven't seen a Zelnorm commercial recently. 15k

Post #269,731

by bepatient

10/6/06 11:54:33 PM

now that was funny!

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #269,743

by pwhysall

10/7/06 1:34:19 AM

This is all missing the point

1. All that taking off your shoes does is tell terrorists not to put bombs in shoes. Better is to put in the processes and people that can spot bombs whatever their form.
2. Liquid bombs have been used? Cite, please. Also, you imply a complete bomb; not the constituent chemical components. Making liquid explosives is a delicate, dangerous activity that's highly unlikely to produce any of the desired results if attempted in the crapper on an airliner. The lack of liquid nitrogen, for a start, puts a real dampener on the exercise.
3. It's high time you subscribed to crypto-gram. Or started reading it, if you already do.
4. If nothing else at all, a TSA screener getting excited about writing on a baggie is quite simply not doing their job; they're being distracted into fannying around with non-issues.

Post #269,749

by Another Scott

10/7/06 8:56:00 AM

PA Flight 434

[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_434|PA Flight 434].

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #269,750

by pwhysall

10/7/06 9:00:50 AM

Not the same thing at all.

The current restrictions on liquids on UK flights are because it was alleged that there was a plot to make explosives on the plane, which is a world away from getting some of that exotic, unknown and undetectable substance, nitroglycerine, on board a plane.

The fact that said plot was a load of toss didn't distract the administration in the slightest.

Post #269,751

by Another Scott

10/7/06 9:36:02 AM

I agree, it's difficult.

And I agree that a lot of the reporting about the UK events has been hysterical.

I haven't kept up with the details of the UK airline bomb plot, but it's been [link|http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/uk_airline_terror_plot/index.html|reported] (scroll down to the August 17, 3:31 pm story) that the suspects made "martyrdom videos" and that explosives have been found. The explosive seems to have been HMTD. (It's exceedingly easy to find a recipe to make it, so I won't supply a link. Liquid nitrogen does not seem to be required.) Whether it's easy to make the explosive from a few liquid constituents on an airliner, I can't say. But the FBI found that HMTD can be made with [link|http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/oct2001/bartick.htm|commonly available hair coloring with other chemicals].

It certainly looks to me that the UK plotters thought they were going to be blowing up airplanes with their explosives. It's not clear to me how the ban on liquids relates to that plot, though. I suspect that it was a case of: "These explosives are made from liquid constituents. We don't have enough time or personnel to check liquids or other chemicals in carry-on bags, so we'll just ban all of them for now".

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #269,753

by bepatient

10/7/06 10:02:46 AM

Ok, so we have a technicality

between making the bomb on the plane and making the explosives on the plane.

I happen to agree that making the explosives on the plane is highly unlikely.

This does not, however, change the fact that using liquids is a possibility (its been done) and that restricting them could, quite possibly, even be advisable.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #269,756

by pwhysall

10/7/06 10:30:44 AM

I have the solution.

In every single terrorist attack, whether successful or not, the perpetrator has had one common defining factor.

This factor is so definitive, so unavoidable and so unequivocal that you could actually profile for this with 100% success.

Yes.

The answer is clearly to prevent human beings from boarding aircraft.

This will achieve the oft-sought goal of reducing our risk of being blown out of the sky to zero.

</silly_but_eerily_plausible>

So you make people carry their liquids on board in a transparent bag, or prevent them from carrying them on at all.

They'll just shove them up their arse on a bit of string.

Remember, these people are prepared to die for their cause. A little rectal discomfort isn't going to put them off.

So. What do you do about that? Anal probes for all?

Post #269,758

by Another Scott

10/7/06 10:39:44 AM

It's been done.

You aren't thinking far-out enough.

[link|http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/post911/aviation/iteam_reaganstripsearch.html|From 2004].

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #269,767

by drewk

10/7/06 12:01:37 PM

That's a lie

If it were true, it would mean that there has been a pattern of TSA employees abusing their authority. And we all know, because it's been beaten to death right here over the past several days, that there is no such trend. That the one incident -- okay, now it's several, but the point (apparently) stands -- was merely an abberation, and not an indictment of the process.

===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #269,773

by bepatient

10/7/06 1:04:44 PM

A Ha!

Oop, you got me...that agent should have crammed his arm up his butt for writing that note!!!

Oh wait.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #269,777

by bepatient

10/7/06 1:13:18 PM

That is a great solution!

They could use the xray machines you guys are developing over there that sees through clothes...that might catch the string hanging...so they would need to carefully trim.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

Post #269,558

by Ashton

10/5/06 7:02:05 PM

'Stay the Course!'

Post #269,572

by bepatient

10/5/06 8:43:00 PM

Yer so cute.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}

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