Post #269,430
10/4/06 9:21:15 PM
10/4/06 9:45:13 PM
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pronoun imprecision
"words to that effect" kind of makes you wonder what he really said No, Beep. It makes you wonder, as you always do, patriotically straining to assume that the citizen must have done something to provoke the machineries of repression, because no reasonable person ever has anything to worry about. You remind me of "Parsons" in 1984. The rest of us don't automatically assume that the guy had to have done something beyond elementary lèse-majesté in order to hustled away by Cheney's goons. Why no, this is America! We're free to speak insolently to the Vice-President without spending more than an afternoon in jail. Ain't it a treat living in the freest country evah?Yeah, I thought you'd agree. cordially, [edit: accent] Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Edited by rcareaga
Oct. 4, 2006, 09:45:13 PM EDT
pronoun imprecision
"words to that effect" kind of makes you wonder what he really said No, Beep. It makes you wonder, as you always do, patriotically straining to assume that the citizen must have done something to provoke the machineries of repression, because no reasonable person ever has anything to worry about. You remind me of "Parsons" in 1984. The rest of us don't automatically assume that the guy had to have done something beyond elementary lèse-majestè in order to hustled away by Cheney's goons. Why no, this is America! We're free to speak insolently to the Vice-President without spending more than an afternoon in jail. Ain't it a treat living in the freest country evah?Yeah, I thought you'd agree. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,439
10/4/06 10:02:54 PM
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What part of "no, just curious"
didn't translate into your "oh dear god he's at it again" head?
Or was "hope he wins" to imprecise?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,440
10/4/06 10:06:37 PM
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we all know that you assumed
that he bitch slapped cheney dropped trow and started humping him while singing YMCA we know how you are :-)
either rand has to get his butt to joisey in july or we need to invade oakland on may 5th. hmm. road trip! skip you in?
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #269,528
10/5/06 2:35:45 PM
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IseeLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #269527 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=269527|IseeLRPD]
lincoln
"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
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Post #269,442
10/4/06 10:11:22 PM
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Clue for Rand:
Bill Patient is not the golem you have constructed in your head. Most times he's simply trying to play the voice of reason amongst the knee-jerking.
As Box said, get your ass out to New Jersey next year and find this out on your own.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #269,444
10/4/06 10:19:13 PM
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naw, full blown bash would be too much, we need to crash his
party on may 5th with a few select shooters and looters and leave the local skells in awe. After that he may be tempted to joiney east.
Rand is that a one day drunk or a two day, we'll need to know how to pace ourselfs
nice if both ben and barry showed as well
if both barry and I show, earnie might come out of hiding in Alameda.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #269,448
10/4/06 10:28:51 PM
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If certain recent events play out ...
I may be up for that trip.
===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #269,455
10/4/06 10:36:16 PM
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kewl I'll bring a 12 gauge for the mouse hunt/bbq
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #269,471
10/4/06 11:34:21 PM
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Who the F is Earnie?
And I haven't flown in years. For all I know, I'm on the no fly list.
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Post #269,508
10/5/06 9:28:46 AM
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Earnie is Rand's (ahem) cousin, didnt know you dont fly
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #269,456
10/4/06 10:37:15 PM
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Re: Clue for Rand:
It is precisely because the rest of you vouch for his character that I have not dispatched the squads of SF Bay Area homosexual pedophile paid assassins I have at my S&M beck and call to fellatiate and smother this Sage of the Pine Barrens.
But, admin, if he's "trying" to "play the voice of reason amongst the knee-jerking," he's not doing a very good job, and I'm merely attempting to correct him.
He's assuming the pose of a libertarian while taking the positions of an authoritarian. When he's called out on his intellectual contradictions he hauls out the straw. I've got a lighter.
I'm sure that Beep and I will get along splendidly in person should we meet—next summer, I hope. But I'm going to call him out for his sundry contradictions until then and, indeed, thereafter.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,458
10/4/06 10:51:45 PM
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nit, since he isnt a kid will he still get fellated before
getting killed? I think that would be a hard bear to cross,
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #269,460
10/4/06 10:58:23 PM
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Do what you gotta do.
In my opinion the post to which I was responding was merely a bit of character assassination and nasty assumption, not straw lighting.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #269,462
10/4/06 11:09:29 PM
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Your standards for "character assassination"
...are pretty light.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,463
10/4/06 11:16:10 PM
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Re: Your standards for "character assassination"
No, Beep. It makes you wonder, as you always do, patriotically straining to assume that the citizen must have done something to provoke the machineries of repression, because no reasonable person ever has anything to worry about. You remind me of "Parsons" in 1984. The rest of us don't automatically assume that the guy had to have done something beyond elementary l\ufffdse-majest\ufffd in order to hustled away by Cheney's goons. Why no, this is America! We're free to speak insolently to the Vice-President without spending more than an afternoon in jail. That's pretty fucking insulting, Rand, pardon my Freedom. Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #269,464
10/4/06 11:18:21 PM
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It would be insulting
...were it not amply supported by the subject's posts.
Read 'em.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,466
10/4/06 11:20:32 PM
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I do read them.
Uncolored by your Beep Is Baaaaad glasses, apparently.
Which was my point, I think. Thanks for playing, drive thru.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #269,478
10/4/06 11:57:02 PM
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Beep will cease to be baaaaad
When he stops posting fascist-enabling idiocies. On that happy day I will congratulate him. Until such time I will call him on it. This does not constitute "character assassination."
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,479
10/4/06 11:59:47 PM
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Seig Heil
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,484
10/5/06 12:18:49 AM
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Taking a leaf from Beep's book
Omigod! He said "Seig Heil"! A body can't dissent from Beep's pronouncements without being accused of being a Nazi! Oh! Oh! I have to lie down!
Why not? [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=269091|It works for you], don't it?
("Gee, I guess I am now not only a nazi supporter...but a RACIST NAZI SUPPORTER.")
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,487
10/5/06 1:11:25 AM
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Ah...but it was I chanting
not casting that aspersion to you.
After all, you are only calling a facist a facist...or just a fascist enabler...sorry for the digression.
I thought I only called the guy an asshole...but hey..burning jews must be next.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,481
10/5/06 12:07:21 AM
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I'm not fond of his politics
But he throws a hell of a party. And in person, even seems sane. Tough to correlate.
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Post #269,483
10/5/06 12:14:42 AM
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Half of what poses for his "politics" here...
... is firmly in the "sharp pokes at the inmates for entertainment purposes" category, I do believe.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #269,499
10/5/06 2:18:14 AM
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You callin me a poser?
bwah ha ha ha
Hell, around here it doesn't even take a particularly long stick.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,504
10/5/06 8:13:31 AM
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Nor a sharp one
"You idiot! It's duller, it'll hurt more!"
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #269,482
10/5/06 12:10:07 AM
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Ah, humor me then...
Point out the "fascist enabling idiocy" he posted in this thread that prompted you to reinterpret his actual words, please...
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #269,485
10/5/06 12:49:43 AM
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many threads in this weave
"words to that effect" kind of makes you wonder what he really said —takes us back to his automatic assumption that the guy who wrote "Kip Hawley is an idiot" on a clear plastic bag deserved to be detained by the TSA and the local law enforcement authorities. [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=268864|Here's the entire subject thread] just in case you weren't paying attention. Beep basically says—at considerable length, and notwithstanding several invitations to walk it back—that anyone who presumes to express a political opinion disagreeable to a TSA screener richly deserves whatever grief comes his way. Sounds like a fearless libertarian to me— not!Beep might be a great guy in person. Given that many of you have met him, and speak well of him, I'd be prepared to wager real money to that effect. But I only know him from his online presence, and the preponderance of evidence after four years suggests that he is largely a co-enabler of our burgeoning fascist regime. I will treat him accordingly in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, or until the political climate shifts sufficiently that I can regard his ilk as relatively harmless. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,489
10/5/06 1:19:42 AM
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Again...for the translation impaired.
It is you, in your search for a "hero of the cause" that have elevated his adolescent, "gee my buddy told me to do this and it sounds like fun" prank to a beacon for the cause of liberty.
I don't have feel any such compulsion to do this.
In this search for a hero...the act was compared to Rosa Parks and various and sundry other acts of civil dissent...thus elevating this prank to all new heights...and had my position (of the guy being an ass) elevated to standing for the replacement of TSA with SS black and furthering racism...et al.
Tell me, which side do you think is stretching it >just< a bit too far?
Sorry for not feeling that strong a desire for hero worship...friend. Me, I'd rather just call jerk on both sides...but, it seems, this makes me a fascist-enabler in your mind...so..as stated...sieg heil.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,490
10/5/06 1:28:58 AM
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find once any statement that this guy was a "hero"
...in any of my remarks on this subject.
You will not. On the contrary, I observed that provoking a TSA goon was probably not a good idea,
But the First Amendment is not reserved for "heroes," as you appear to believe.
And you need to lay off the straw. True, it's a gratifying immediate high, but the moral effects are ultimately debilitating—as you are already beginning to demonstrate.
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,495
10/5/06 1:56:36 AM
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"hero for the cause"
elevating to a first amendment issue the juvenile act and its inappropriate response, to me, is indeed elevating the act to hero status...and its direct comparisons to other, more notable cases.
Whether you were or not implicating this, you are certainly willing to bring the responses to same into your devoted endeavor of painting my boots black.
I'll continue on my merry way...you can take all the minuses for style points that you like...and I'll do the same.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,469
10/4/06 11:28:11 PM
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What part.
The part where I stated I hope the guy wins the lawsuit?
Hardly the stance you paint in the next post...which was posted after I had already clarified further to your brother in whateveryoucallit that I was simply curious to know what words were actually involved in "or words to that effect".
Which, instead of being read in english...is read with your knee firmly rising into your chin.
Back to your regularly scheduled misinformation. It has unlimited entertainment value.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,491
10/5/06 1:33:50 AM
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I put this to the other participants
Is the passage cited by admin "pretty fucking insulting" by the standards of this board, or even by the standards of offline discourse?
I don't think so. If I'm wrong, I need to be corrected (and probably need therapy as well). But again, I don't think so.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,496
10/5/06 1:57:56 AM
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His opinion is duly noted.
Are you truly wishing the masses to shout him down?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,503
10/5/06 8:08:35 AM
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My $0.02.
Beep does get poked at for his posts more than most, here. I think there is a perception that he believes: 1) The Market will Correct, and the Market is the best forum to handle nearly all non-social interactions. 2) In politics, the Republican party too often is unfairly criticized and that he generally leans Republican in his politics.
I think the reality is: 1) Given his training and interest in economics, he likes to explain how he believes the market works, but that he recognizes that it's not some Ayn Randian unconditional good. There are important problems with the way things work in our economy, but at the moment it's the best way we have to allocate resources efficiently - I think is his position. 2) In politics, he's a realist and a cynic and generally leans (small L) libertarian. He doesn't think the Democrats are inherently more moral than the Republicans and thinks both parties are more interested in their own political power than they are in attacking the real problems facing the country. He has little sympathy for pundits who get riled up by the latest outrage.
I think he gets into trouble here because in his efforts to explain things and bring balance and moderation to the discussion, his choice of words make it look like he's being an apologist. For instance, in the TSA thread, he points out that both of them were behaving badly, and that the screener was out of line, but most of his comments were about the guy who was being hassled. He doesn't seem to understand that most of the outrage (at least in my case) in that situation, and in the Cheney situation as well, is a result of the asymmetry in power in the participants. They're not 'equals having a disagreement and we need to understand both sides' (not a quote). On one side we have Joe American acting up, and on the other we have someone representing the full power of the Federal Government. Someone who can, and did, arbitrarily hassle a person. IMO, the person with the less powerful position gets cut more slack and gets more of the benefit of the doubt than the TSA screener in this case as there was nothing related to his job description that made his actions appropriate. Sure it was "understandable", but schizophrenia is understandable too - that doesn't mean it's appropriate. Personally, it's Beeps seeming lack of recognition of the asymmetry in power in many of the discussions here that I find a little confusing, and it's part of the reason why I have misinterpreted some of his recent posts.
Saying, "It's nothing new - similar things happened under the Democrats" can be used for balance, but it also can be used by an apologist for the Republicans. It's a statement that minimizes the present asymmetry in power between the parties. As a general principle, I think the party/person/company/manager with more power has more responsibility when there's a conflict. Sometimes in Beep's posts it's hard for me to tell whether he's using statements like that for balance or as an excuse. Most of the time, I think it's the former.
Also, Beep needs to use The Sign a little more often. :-)
I thought your post was a little too pointy, Rand, but my line is more timid than most. I think Beep was goading you on in some of his later posts, so I don't think he took offense. :-)
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who certainly knows about the Motes and Beams so is very uncomfortable at the moment. :-)
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Post #269,517
10/5/06 12:11:38 PM
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Thanks for that
Very reasonable and makes sense, thanks. Rand's reaction also I understand because more often than not I happen to share it. When you complain about someone in authority reacting as a thug would, instead of as your representative, it's no help to be reminded that provoking thugs predictably leads to unpleasantness:
"That guy stole my watch!"
"You had it coming -- only a fool leaves valuables in plain sight of a thief."
I was referring to the TSA thing there, but similarly here, to Rand (and me) Beep's "makes you wonder" question seemed to be leading in the direction of accusing the guy of reckless stupidity if his words had been ruder -- which is beside the point as far as I'm concerned. My own wondering (yes, it "made me wonder" too) was entirely in the interest of better guaging the operational setting of Cheney's hair-trigger of self-righteuosness. Preconceived notions, perceptions of Beep, not read in his words :)
I certainly understand "just shut up, go along, cooperate and it'll go easier" -- sometimes that's the voice of reason, sometimes even when it's coming from the thug himself. But while it may be valuable to survive a crisis, it is a disaster as a management policy.
These encounters with authority can have the immediate nature of an encounter with a grizzly bear (yes it is the voice of reason to remind me not to use scented shampoo in grizzly country, and to drop and curl into a fetal position if charged), but when there's a failure in governance, it is also our responsability to fix long term. The government and it's authority is ours -- we need to be interested in managing and administering it, not just coping with it.
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Post #269,519
10/5/06 12:23:40 PM
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More like...
"That guy stole my watch!"
"You shouldn't have handed your Rolex to that streetcorner stranger, you dope."
Followed up with mass mind saying that we need to find said streetcorner theif and make an example of him, with maximum sentencingx3...simply because he "should've know better"
Me..more inclined to simply believe an idiot is an idiot is an idiot and NOT elevate what (in my obvious opinion) is a "he told me to do it" prank into a telltale sign of the apocolypse.
So just call me Neville :-)
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,523
10/5/06 1:26:11 PM
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OK then
But when the streetcorner thief is also the TSA agent, your options for getting out unscathed on your own power narrow considerably.
You either
- hand over the Rolex, or
- provoke the predictable ire of the authority goon.
Either way, you're an idiot -- unless you follow up with an attempt to fix the broken system (*especially* then, I hear you say).
When the system is broken by design (and it is), things get nasty. There comes a point where enlightened self-interest dictates not "go along to get along" but "lets roll".
It's all a question of where the authority (and responsability) ultimately comes from: "them" or "all of us".
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Post #269,524
10/5/06 1:42:54 PM
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Will you stop already?
You just....don't....get....it....do....you?
If he taunted a McDonalds fry cook and the fry cook spit on his burger...ITS THE SAME TO ME. This is NOT a case that rises to a level of indictment against the TSA. It was 2 people who BOTH were acting like idiots.
Parse that, will you?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,536
10/5/06 3:46:59 PM
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I had no idea
I thought we were talking about a passenger who wrote some non-threatening words on a baggie at an airport -- my bad
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Post #269,537
10/5/06 4:33:18 PM
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to which
you apply to his actions some significance in his defiance of "the man". Some, even more.
Because you want, en masse, so badly, it appears...to make him the rosa parks of hair gel.
So much so, it appears, that the idiotic reaction of the guy stuck doing that job (that by all rights should not have reacted that way) is now a sign of impending doom and jackboot thuggery and a precursor to the new nazi regime.
Unfortunately, one report or even a dozen, from a system that processes 20 MILLION passengers per day, seems to me more indicative of this man finding a bad seed NOT acting in concert with the nazi leadership as opposed to what appears to be here a determined effort to equate TSA screeners to the SS.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,540
10/5/06 5:05:01 PM
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It seems to be a growing movement...
[link|http://www.kiphawleyisanidiot.com/|http://www.kiphawleyisanidiot.com/]
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #269,541
10/5/06 5:21:50 PM
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Good for them
However, I have linked to the precursor flight with a 2 foot hole ripped in the floor and one passenger dead based on a liquid explosive. So, is this the same Hollywood fiction that the Bushies were supposed to have been able to imagine when 19 people used long-haul jets as missiles?
And how much do you wanna bet that there will be no more over-reactions to these fun little messages that could be statistically matched to general idiots in the population?
The web is a wonderous place. His 15 minutes now immortalized.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,544
10/5/06 5:40:50 PM
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Few doubt that liquid explosives can do damage.
The [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_434|explosion] - that we've both linked to - which killed that poor fellow was caused by [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroglycerin|nitroglicerin] - not hair gel. And not writing 5 words on a baggie.
Why don't we ban [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/twa800/bomb.htm|Toshiba radios] on aircraft?
The point is, TSA is very bad about explaining the reasons for their security procedures. Their rules are seen as arbitrary and capricious. They take actions which don't enhance security, but only serve to annoy people. One week, no liquids are permitted. The next, 3 oz is OK, if it's in a 1 quart plastic bag. The next, one might assume, is that only TSA approved vendors can supply liquids that are carried past checkpoints and a new Microsoft-style monopoloy will be born...
;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who wonders: How long we can loop around this topic before we're all driven insane? And who figures that eventually we're going to learn to tolerate a small risk of violent death on commercial aircraft, or we're all going to have to fly nude.)
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Post #269,548
10/5/06 6:24:56 PM
10/5/06 6:53:24 PM
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Ha!
I suspect that I'm already batshit bonkers from the topic. On the other paw, if you think you can go fast... more than 30 MPH, say, and not risk death at all, you are already way above me on the bonkers scale. Going fast isn't dangerous but stopping abruptly can bugger your whole day... Flying, by definition, involves going fast enough to kill you if you stop flying abruptly. So does riding a Greyhound bus but if the collision is sufficiently inelastic, the deceleration may be tolerable... but that's for nitpickers.
Flying has always been dangerous to some degree or anther. It reflects well on the industry that it is as safe as it is. Still, no level of degrading passangers is going to stop a flight of geese though a couple engines. It still will be dangerous to some degree. Now, we have whackadoos who want to detonate their sneakers or tampons or hair gell or ... It's all part of the game. The odds are still in my favor if I want to fly to San Jose or drive (except that I'll be fired for missing 3 days of work driving or for showing up a couple days late.)
None of this addresses stingers (generic term now, I think) on take off (less likely on landing) but this is an SEP.
None of this addresses deleberate sabotage since we are screening passengers more rigorously then employees.
If the whackadoos plans have gotten to the level where they can get a device on the plane, they are way ahead of the game. They need to be stopped in the planning/supply stages. The rest is just luck of the draw. Live with it. Didn't cut anything vital off zipping up this morining? You're starting the day off well!
It's probably a good day to fly (or die. I admitted to being bonkers...)
(edit: s/elastic/inelastic/)
Edited by hnick
Oct. 5, 2006, 06:53:24 PM EDT
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Post #269,549
10/5/06 6:29:04 PM
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*applause*
here's to bonkers!
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,545
10/5/06 6:09:03 PM
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And if so, the tactic worked.
Small step, small result, but the result was good. Less of a chance of a) that particular kind of abuse of authority, and b) people bowing down to it.
What a jerk, eh? Your totally unsupported accusation that he was doing it only to get 15 minutes of fame MUST be justifed, right? Oh, that's right, that conclusion is justified because he wasn't the guy that came up with the idea. Non-sequitur that THAT is.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #269,547
10/5/06 6:24:19 PM
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It changes nothing
not even my opinion of the incident.
The fact of it taking a life of its own is not even outside of reach of my current posts regarding the "jackass" aspect of this.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,551
10/5/06 6:41:16 PM
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So - YOU say it had an effect...
...but it "changes nothing".
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #269,556
10/5/06 6:52:32 PM
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Nothing of my opinion on the matter.
Period.
Because I doubt the sincerity for which those here seem to feel inclined to attach to the man.
Those in search of a hero will find one. Those in search of a cause will find one. As it relates to this matter, I feel no compulsion in either direction.
I don't 1) think this person was embarking on anything other than a prank 2) think that the over-reaction of the TSA agent is indicative of an overall trend and 3) feel taht the incident was anything other than a jerk meets jerk occurrence that, grace a l'internet, has become the stuff of legend (albeit a current legend).
The "effect" is self evident. If I thought the initial act an abberation...so then the simple trend back to normalcy will now be perceived by those searching for the hero and the cause as "success".
We simply now have a new website telling all newfound kip bashers to arms.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,559
10/5/06 7:19:55 PM
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Since you've laid it out so clearly ...
I don't 1) think this person was embarking on anything other than a prank You keep calling it a "jackass type prank". If they had done it, they would have worn 6-inch high platform shoes with what looks like a fuse coming out of it. They would have agressively challenged the screener and verbally attacked him personally. That's a jackass prank. This was a silent expression of a political opinion. 2) think that the over-reaction of the TSA agent is indicative of an overall trend Depends on what trend you're talking about. Are airport screeners inconveniencing lots of people with arbitrary rules that don't actually increase safety? Yes. Are they doing it because they've been told to by their superiors? Yes. Which makes it more than a trend, it's a policy. and 3) feel taht the incident was anything other than a jerk meets jerk occurrence that, grace a l'internet, has become the stuff of legend (albeit a current legend). If by "jerk" you mean "guy making a political statement", and by "jerk" you mean "government representative with arrest authority", they yeah, I guess so. ===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #269,571
10/5/06 8:42:17 PM
10/5/06 8:44:53 PM
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Nope, you still don't get it.
You are giving the guy instant credit as...
"the guy making a political statement".
I DO NOT. (yes...that is the end result...but that, I do not believe, was the intent...based upon the posts)
Read the first. Read the pre-links. He thought it would be "funny" to try something one of his "fellow" message board guys posted.
He did not start by saying "I'm out to send my message".
So...given this as my starting point...and the fact that there aren't hundreds of thousands of more examples of aggregious violations of civil liberties occuring in a system that processes 20 million passengers a day...I'd say its a case of prankster meets asshole. Nothing more. Nothing less. The man was not arrested. Not detained without a phone call. Not classified as a "enemy combatant".
In fact, he really wasn't treated much worse that someone who has to randomly undergo a secondary scan...thanks to all of the other "thou shalt nots" placed on the TSA.
Tell you what...lets just get rid of airport security checks...since they do nothing...they are just a set of "arbitrary rules that don't actually increase safety". So making them vanish shouldn't have any effect either, should it?
PS...in an absolutely perfect world...I would love to have every single person given authority be wiser, more patient, more forgiving...and...damn it...just all be all around nice guys. But...it ain't perfect...and the odds of getting a jerk pretty much mirror the odds of finding one in general pop...(read...pretty good lately)
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
Edited by bepatient
Oct. 5, 2006, 08:44:53 PM EDT
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Post #269,575
10/5/06 8:56:54 PM
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Straw man
Tell you what...lets just get rid of airport security checks...since they do nothing...they are just a set of "arbitrary rules that don't actually increase safety". No, just get rid of the arbitrary rules that don't actually increase safety. You know, just like you quoted. But by all means, keep the effective security measures. I didn't say otherwise. ===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #269,608
10/6/06 8:12:36 AM
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Which ones are those exactly?
Taking of your shoes? Incidents of bombs in shoes HAVE occurred.
Restiction of liquids?
Liquid bombs have been used.
Which rules, exactly????
And...their arbitrary nature...and the fact that they change...is [link|http://www.tsa.gov/approach/unpredictability.shtm|part of the process.]
And, if extending your statements to their logical yet ridculous extreme is straw man...then I'm with Dorithy on the yellow brick road all the way.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,717
10/6/06 8:06:33 PM
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Unpredictability has nothing to do with it
Remember when we couldn't carry nail clippers? But it's not like they surprised you with it, so you can't call it unpredictable.
And liquids are no good, but there are far more explosive solids, with bigger bang per size. But we'll prohibit liquids because people have heard about it. Prohibiting them makes it look like we're doing something.
===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #269,729
10/6/06 11:17:35 PM
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Ok.
So suggest we prohibit all carry on baggage.
Solves TSA issues of what to restrict or what not to restrict AND the issue of writing on plastic bags...since nobody will have any to write on.
You've solved the whole issue. Congrats!
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,730
10/6/06 11:21:43 PM
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I guess you haven't seen a Zelnorm commercial recently. 15k
[image|http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/wp-content/images/zel2.jpg|0|My Zelnorm Tummy|340|309]
:-p
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who really thinks you need to use That Sign a little more often; or invite everyone on Jabber. ;-)
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Post #269,731
10/6/06 11:54:33 PM
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now that was funny!
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,743
10/7/06 1:34:19 AM
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This is all missing the point
1. All that taking off your shoes does is tell terrorists not to put bombs in shoes. Better is to put in the processes and people that can spot bombs whatever their form.
2. Liquid bombs have been used? Cite, please. Also, you imply a complete bomb; not the constituent chemical components. Making liquid explosives is a delicate, dangerous activity that's highly unlikely to produce any of the desired results if attempted in the crapper on an airliner. The lack of liquid nitrogen, for a start, puts a real dampener on the exercise.
3. It's high time you subscribed to crypto-gram. Or started reading it, if you already do.
4. If nothing else at all, a TSA screener getting excited about writing on a baggie is quite simply not doing their job; they're being distracted into fannying around with non-issues.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
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Post #269,749
10/7/06 8:56:00 AM
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PA Flight 434
[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_434|PA Flight 434].
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #269,750
10/7/06 9:00:50 AM
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Not the same thing at all.
The current restrictions on liquids on UK flights are because it was alleged that there was a plot to make explosives on the plane, which is a world away from getting some of that exotic, unknown and undetectable substance, nitroglycerine, on board a plane.
The fact that said plot was a load of toss didn't distract the administration in the slightest.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
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Post #269,751
10/7/06 9:36:02 AM
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I agree, it's difficult.
And I agree that a lot of the reporting about the UK events has been hysterical.
I haven't kept up with the details of the UK airline bomb plot, but it's been [link|http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/uk_airline_terror_plot/index.html|reported] (scroll down to the August 17, 3:31 pm story) that the suspects made "martyrdom videos" and that explosives have been found. The explosive seems to have been HMTD. (It's exceedingly easy to find a recipe to make it, so I won't supply a link. Liquid nitrogen does not seem to be required.) Whether it's easy to make the explosive from a few liquid constituents on an airliner, I can't say. But the FBI found that HMTD can be made with [link|http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/oct2001/bartick.htm|commonly available hair coloring with other chemicals].
It certainly looks to me that the UK plotters thought they were going to be blowing up airplanes with their explosives. It's not clear to me how the ban on liquids relates to that plot, though. I suspect that it was a case of: "These explosives are made from liquid constituents. We don't have enough time or personnel to check liquids or other chemicals in carry-on bags, so we'll just ban all of them for now".
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #269,753
10/7/06 10:02:46 AM
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Ok, so we have a technicality
between making the bomb on the plane and making the explosives on the plane.
I happen to agree that making the explosives on the plane is highly unlikely.
This does not, however, change the fact that using liquids is a possibility (its been done) and that restricting them could, quite possibly, even be advisable.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,756
10/7/06 10:30:44 AM
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I have the solution.
In every single terrorist attack, whether successful or not, the perpetrator has had one common defining factor.
This factor is so definitive, so unavoidable and so unequivocal that you could actually profile for this with 100% success.
Yes.
The answer is clearly to prevent human beings from boarding aircraft.
This will achieve the oft-sought goal of reducing our risk of being blown out of the sky to zero.
</silly_but_eerily_plausible>
So you make people carry their liquids on board in a transparent bag, or prevent them from carrying them on at all.
They'll just shove them up their arse on a bit of string.
Remember, these people are prepared to die for their cause. A little rectal discomfort isn't going to put them off.
So. What do you do about that? Anal probes for all?
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
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Post #269,758
10/7/06 10:39:44 AM
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It's been done.
You aren't thinking far-out enough.
[link|http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/post911/aviation/iteam_reaganstripsearch.html|From 2004].
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #269,767
10/7/06 12:01:37 PM
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That's a lie
If it were true, it would mean that there has been a pattern of TSA employees abusing their authority. And we all know, because it's been beaten to death right here over the past several days, that there is no such trend. That the one incident -- okay, now it's several, but the point (apparently) stands -- was merely an abberation, and not an indictment of the process.
===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #269,773
10/7/06 1:04:44 PM
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A Ha!
Oop, you got me...that agent should have crammed his arm up his butt for writing that note!!!
Oh wait.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,777
10/7/06 1:13:18 PM
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That is a great solution!
They could use the xray machines you guys are developing over there that sees through clothes...that might catch the string hanging...so they would need to carefully trim.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,558
10/5/06 7:02:05 PM
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'Stay the Course!'
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Post #269,572
10/5/06 8:43:00 PM
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Yer so cute.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,770
10/7/06 12:47:50 PM
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+5 Insightful
I think you summed it up rather well; It certainly codifies my objections to his overall posting style.
jb4
"When the final history is written in Iraq, [link|http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmate/2006/tmate060926.gif|it'll look just like a comma.]"
— George W. Bush, 24 Sep 06
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Post #269,774
10/7/06 1:09:08 PM
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I object to your objection!
Unless, of course, you want this forum to be retitled "Rodney King" while it falls off the left side of the keyboard.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,775
10/7/06 1:10:48 PM
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I can't argue with you unless you've paid.
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Post #269,778
10/7/06 1:14:16 PM
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So this is contradiction?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,780
10/7/06 1:16:53 PM
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No, it isn't.
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Post #269,781
10/7/06 1:18:34 PM
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Oh dear.
Don't you think I've been annoying enough without breaking into a 10 deep bout of "Yes it is!"?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,788
10/7/06 2:45:31 PM
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:-)
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Post #269,509
10/5/06 9:36:20 AM
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well it may be
but the way you write it is pretty fucking amusing as well, that will cover a lot of sins.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #269,514
10/5/06 11:02:13 AM
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Indeed! :-)
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Post #269,515
10/5/06 11:45:50 AM
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My opinion...
...Beep's no Marlowe when it comes to politics.
(Actually I lean to libertarian, much like beep... but I also think Bush and Repub company have gone the police-state and war-intervention route, so I will likely never vote republican again in my lifetime).
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Post #269,516
10/5/06 12:05:06 PM
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Praised with faint damnation ;-)
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,494
10/5/06 1:45:12 AM
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Jeez Admin - so Beep's a patella expert in drag?
Imagine if he'd been called ... an Econ Major.
Hmmm - innuendo is everywhere, even in knee-jerk certification.
Offhand, I don't quite see this averred 'knee-jerk-amelioration process' as being anything like illuminating; more like: an evasive obfuscatory drill. Certainly frees a one from taking a position on Anything, though. Nihilism perchance?
Since the formula is evident: merely reverse the never-complete information about some wacko incident ... and then invent something 'psychological' out of whole cloth {forget acronym for pull-out-of-Ass; POA?} Threads could be shorter, for example - if we had an emoticon for, "The Other Side is Just as Bad Awk Awk" -?- that's always a stunner. As to current tempest in a hookah -
Who then shall speak for The Perp? He so blithely labelled jackass in this case, on the sole basis of the imagineering of a crusader against knee-jerking? Imagineering: of what he intended? what he really 'meant'? even.. Why! he did whatever. Pick fav: {play games | seek attention | yada, blah, farfle}
Was that not a pukka case of character assassination ?
Would Tom Paine even make it To 'security'?
You decide. But not just you.
Don't Make Waves is the recurrent Authority plea of our fearless alleged patella expert. Given that a fondness for 'authority' is associated not only with 1930s Germany - but 2K America, currently - maybe.. the lad's just not very good at patella patching??
Now, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed.
"The hero is commonly the simplest and obscurest of men"
-- Henry David Thoreau
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Post #269,497
10/5/06 2:02:58 AM
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All this...
...from someone who true to form offers many a critique with nary a solution.
And, for the pop culture impaired, jackass >the movie< spends much time showing people doing things they should not...while millions dutifully fork over 9$ to watch their agony and gather together in small groups to talk about how "great" it was.
Draw your own conclusion. You are exceedingly good at it.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,539
10/5/06 5:04:22 PM
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Pointless, of course.
Playing a simple-minded bot appears to ensure the pointless exercise. Deep.. kinda like Pong. You've programmed your bot as shield to revealing any scary honest take - and the programming is amateur Yes/No grade - no matter how intricate an issue. Aristotle you aren't. people doing things they should not... There are lots of 'shoulds..' in most of your arguments for obeying authority, going along along along. Why, there are many books about 'shoulds. (Of course, you're just pretending - right?) Convenient, that. I suppose that the simplistic masquerading as the inscrutable - may be the only Play left, given that natural selection has left here, no earnest defenders of a return to 1200 or maybe 0 AD. Kismet, I guess. We've seen your Shrub-bot - care to try for a Disraeli upgrade? OK - that would be hard. Never mind. ta
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Post #269,543
10/5/06 5:29:49 PM
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Yes. Certainly.
A sheep in wolf's clothing.
Lead me, oh master, to slaughter.
Or, to make the binary opposition...you find it better to simply partake of any activity defiant of authority. That, I'm sure, will lead to your utopia. At least, if I am to infer your "distaste" of your perception of my position to an actual perception of yours.
But wait...one extreme, other extreme...neither much of a good thing, is it?
Isn't this where we (cha) start (cha) the (cha) dance?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,550
10/5/06 6:39:32 PM
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If they come for the Economists before the Trade Unionists,
next time - will anyone hear the tree falling in the forest?
(Sorry, can't achieve the illegibility of your example post - seems to be some homily on the futility of ever making waves. No sale.)
Ans:
If they come for the Economists even before the Trade Unionists, no one will come; they'll be standing in a line and not saying a word.
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Post #269,554
10/5/06 6:43:13 PM
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Can't? Really?
Color me surprised. Figured you had lots of practice.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,553
10/5/06 6:42:09 PM
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Thought experiment (new thread)
Created as new thread #269552 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=269552|Thought experiment]
===
Kip Hawley is still an idiot.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #269,467
10/4/06 11:21:12 PM
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Damn, if I'd have know thats who you were sending...
...i've have told those guys to shut up
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,530
10/5/06 2:37:45 PM
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IseeLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #269529 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=269529|IseeLRPD]
lincoln
"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
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