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New This kind of talk used to cause wars
If it doesn't now, it's not for Mr. Chavez' merit.


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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New You really don't understand
how thoroughly Bush has dragged the US' reputation through the mud.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New And you don't understand
the difference between private citizen and government oficials, speaking on record.

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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Let me make sure I understand you correctly
You're saying that because Hugo Chavez says George Bush smells bad we should go to war with him? Can you cite the last time in living memory that a bad smell in the room—or an imputation of supernatural association with the infernal powers—was accepted as a proper casus belli? You can't?

I didn't think so.

yours with deepest affection,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Yes you did understand me correctly
Do you realize what he said? Do you understand what "Devil" means? This was not a journalist writing an article. This was one country speaking about another. As a private citizen, Mr. Chavez is entitled to his opinion about our president.. As the head of a government, he speaks for his country. When _he_ speaks of US president, he speaks of US. All good people on Earth are at war with the Devil. Venezuela is at war with United States.

Well, this attitude is about 150 years out of style. I understand that. But, initially it went out of style because no one dared tospeak like that. Then, recently, it was out of style because every bigmouth cannibal dictator was protected by the Soviet nuclear umbrella. It still stays out of style because, frankly, nom one much cares what Venezuelan Government thinks of the United States.

None of those reasons are the merit of Mr Chavez.

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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New The US is going to lose its influence in SA
because it has shown the limits of its power, and because it's (deeply and authoritatively) shown the limits of its moral leadership.

South Americans have known about the latter for a long time, of course.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New No, actually I didn't
You say, for example, "All good people on Earth are at war with the Devil." That's so...deluded in so many ways. All? Good? Why, my dear little Ark, I am near-universally celebrated as a person, as an earthling, and as one of the best and kindest embodiments of pure goodness ever to stalk this filthy pellet of muck we are pleased to call home, and I'm not at war with the devil. Never have been, never will be. You might as well proclaim that we should all dedicate ourselves to struggle with the Tooth Fairy. It would win you a little more credibility. And as to "every bigmouth cannibal dictator" being "protected by the Soviet nuclear umbrella," you really ought to cast your net a bit wider, and learn about some of the US of A's clients and satraps these latter decades.

You are a very silly person.

with scarcely-containable manly affection,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New I guess you did not...
"Devil" can mean many things, indeed. Do you think Chavez meant the cunning, slightly stupid, mostly harmless thing that Russians call "chert"? Or the noble Devil of Bulgakov? Or the guys who fart at sinners in Dante's Hell?

No, I think he meant the exact thing he said, the thing you and a lot of other people say all the time: the US president is evil incarnate, obsessed with power, black with pride, happy to torture innocents everywhere for his rotten idea of fun. My point was, that's not something that one country has a right to say to another, not unless they expect to bomb and to get bombed tomorrow.

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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Your point was...
he meant the exact thing he said, the thing you and a lot of other people say all the time: the US president is evil incarnate, obsessed with power, black with pride, happy to torture innocents everywhere for his rotten idea of fun. My point was, that's not something that one country has a right to say to another, not unless they expect to bomb and to get bombed tomorrow
And my point is that you have roughly paraphrased the conclusion that any decent human being, or even any head of state, might be forgiven for reaching after almost six years observing George Doubleyew Fucking Bush in power.

Is it then unforgivable to speak truth to power?

less-than cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New It is unforgivable to speak truth in diplomacy
Like I said, bomb and be bombed.

You can still pretend you don't understand me. But I can't pretend that I believe you.

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Then I can't forgive you for not pretending
Bombers en route. Take shelter.
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Chavez has nothing to worry about from the US.
The only slightly similar situation I can recall is what happened with Noriega in Panama. There's nothing in the [link|http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/just_cause.htm|Operation Just Cause] timeline that yet matches what's going on in Venezuela.

When Chavez declares war on the US and US personnel are killed, then Chavez will have something to worry about.

I think you're misunderstanding Chavez. He isn't interested in diplomacy with the US. He's interested in being seen as someone who stands up to the US - for domestic and foreign attention.

The US isn't going to attack him because he calls George names. That type of reaction in international relations went out several decades ago.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Scratching head....
we're we used to be called [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Satan|The Great Satan]

Hell, I think we've been demoted to a mere devil. Shrug.
New And backing coup attempts isn't?
Thank God for that, since otherwise we'd be at war with Venezuela right now.
Odoru aho ni miru aho!
Onaji aho nara odoranya son son!
New Coup attempts... moi??
Why next..

You'll be suggesting that moi had something to do with the death of Salvador Allende! or say.. spraying Columbia with Agent Orange? to drive up the price of nose candy for all those Boomer-types as can afford whatever. Or Nicaragua or - - {sheesh} tryin ta poison. papa. Fidel??

Absurd! rumours spread by commie pinko homosexuals - -

WDYHASM?

New Well, Mr. Chavez would be very happy to
finance a coup or two here. But so far, the best he can do is to call Bush "Devil" and Condoleeza Rice "a monkey" (if I recall correctly). The difference is in capabilities, not in intentions.

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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Oh, I don't know
Venezuela is not a poor country. Don't forget, they are one of the world's major exporters of oil. He can afford to do it, esp. in his immediate neighbourhood, but hasn't done it.

The US, otoh, has, and not just in Venezuela. How about that?

Are you so sure that he would be happy to do that? After all, it's not like most of the continent's population don't agree with him in general... as has been evidenced by recent election results down there. Why would he want to finance coups? You think he has designs on his neighbours? The best guide to that sort of thing is history, and the history of the US in Central and South America has been a sordid one for a very long time. Chavez' history has not been.

Unless you count tweaking the nose of someone who has admitted recently to egregious violations of the Geneva Conventions (prisoners held incommunicado for years, for example) as sordid. Some people would not agree with you.

You really really don't realise the extent to which the current government has dragged the US' reputation through the mud in the last five years in the eyes of most of the rest of the world, do you? You know, right after 9/11, everybody was with the US... and now almost nobody trusts it; those that don't view the US with distaste view it with fear, and recent actions have not done anything to make people feel better about how the US is behaving.

The sad thing is that you can't say they're wrong to do so.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Re: Oh, I don't know
Venezuela is not a poor country. Don't forget, they are one of the world's major exporters of oil. He can afford to do it, esp. in his immediate neighbourhood, but hasn't done it.


You mean, it should not be a poor country. As it is, it's #79 in the world in GDP per capita, as of 2002. Behind Khzakhstan and Colombia. Not that it prevents Chavez from throwing money around.

The US, otoh, has, and not just in Venezuela. How about that?


Chavez also has, in Venezuela. He is a failed [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempts_of_1992|putchist] himself.

Are you so sure that he would be happy to do that? After all, it's not like most of the continent's population don't agree with him in general... as has been evidenced by recent election results down there. Why would he want to finance coups? You think he has designs on his neighbours? The best guide to that sort of thing is history, and the history of the US in Central and South America has been a sordid one for a very long time. Chavez' history has not been.


I meant, he'd be happy to foment a coup in US. Not that he can. As to his history, I already metioned some. More is to come. The history is happening now, you know.

Unless you count tweaking the nose of someone who has admitted recently to egregious violations of the Geneva Conventions (prisoners held incommunicado for years, for example) as sordid. Some people would not agree with you.


Tweaking the nose is fine. But not at this level. At this level, things are taken rather literally. If someone comes over to _you_ and tweaks your nose, literally, what is your first impulse? The United States never acts on impulse, thankfully.

You really really don't realise the extent to which the current government has dragged the US' reputation through the mud in the last five years in the eyes of most of the rest of the world, do you? You know, right after 9/11, everybody was with the US... and now almost nobody trusts it; those that don't view the US with distaste view it with fear, and recent actions have not done anything to make people feel better about how the US is behaving.


Diplomacy? Rules? Civility? Anyone? Does anyone, at all, understand the difference between NYTimes and UN? Can you imagine a speech like that from Chirac? Putin? Do you think they like US any more than Cavez?

The sad thing is that you can't say they're wrong to do so.


True enough. But irrelevant.


------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Now, I know you're kidding.
The United States never acts on impulse, thankfully.

Been following any of the Gestapo's DHS/TSA's activities of late?
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New Ah, you mean talk like... 'Axis of Evil' / 'Evil Empire'
"You're With US or Against US ..."

[see complete list, Vols I through V]

(..if you oppose my policies, you're well, like, a fascist.)


Checked your filter settings?

New that is the correct function call
If you dont agree with the communists you are a facist. Welcome to Union of Soviet America tovaritch, language describes what your core beliefs are. Uncle George and Hero Dick know whats best for you or else.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Salon puts the matter into a bit more detail
(in the totting-up of the [link|http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/09/21/chavez/index.html?source=newsletter|tit for tat])

In the race to the bottom, clearly we've had the most practice since ~'92. We possess the most talent, too.. Newt G. even wrote down the recipe for just the right flavor of language murder, to prevent any exchange of ideas at all.

(My Gramma'd be proud (G\ufffdbbels too) of the new crop of savages-with-hair-combed - why, they've parlayed and polished dehumanizing slander into Career opportunitie$ galore.)



Pity the young'uns barely grok McCathy.. let alone Citizen Cohn - the progenitors of today's transistorized Slime-O-Vision - yet it's just as creepy stuff as reading mere fictions about serial killers.

New Axis of Evil...
Let me think...

North Korea - still formally at war with it, have an armistice for now
Iran - sanctions in place, no diplomatic relations, "Death to America".
Iraq - we all know about Iraq, don't we.

Yes, Bush used that term about states with which we are (or were then) in various stages of hostilities.

Sounds fine to me.

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Just.. War as an extension of politics, then, eh?
You are actually attempting to rationalize BushCo! {sheesh} Probably an exercise in futility, but:

Ponder war waged by economic means for many decades, as well as militarily. I expect next that you shall characterize US history re its neighbors (and the various smaller countries elsewhere, whom we have 'touched') - as reflecting some bizarre idea of a Meritocracy, too? - ie.

As ~with Redmond say, it's OK to become a Hegemon? - if you "earn" it via guile, cynical deception; through pandering to troglodytes/dictators -- for the sole sake of a temporary commercial advantage! (Screw the inhabitants, whose bondage your oil or other 'trade'-treaty reinforces. Screw also your own sanctimoniously self-proclaimed 'Principles'. cha cha cha)

But. When you lie with Machiavelli - you lose your "moral" suasion; then, when you hurl adolescent calumnies like Evil Empire (and object to others' similar characterization of your own self-serving policies?) of now, ~ a century? - say Manila Bay, then Hawaii, Puerto Rico, et al -

Why.. *that's* how you arrive at the obloquy it has taken this Radical ex-Trotskyite cabal to garner. 'Republicans'? 'Conservatives'? Hah: Box has them nailed close-enough; these are beyond mere local (turn-back-clock) Reactionaries - they be like some of your older Radical former-countrymen. No ice-pick this time.. yet.

In a mere 6 years - 5 years since the universal sympathies extended us, via the 9/11 attack - the US cabal has managed to reverse! that-All. (And a UK PM has committed public seppuku for his own seduction by these Liars - how's That for evidence of the trend?)

*We* are now 'The Evil Empire' to hundreds of millions; daily increasing, by all accounts. Wanna place your bets on *when* the currently accelerating drum-beat from the Neoconmen of the PNAC: commences WW-III in Iran? (though we may? still have a thin chance of saying / and Meaning-this-time: NO! If 'we' is more than a vestigial icon, at this late date, and after the sloth/sleep of many of our millions.)

Another crap-shoot, 'Iran'. Who knows the depth of ennui within collective jelloware of consumers.
(Side bet: guess the probability of a nuclear {euphemism-alert} "bunker buster" next, raising the outrage level to: Irreversible worldwide consensus. On our censure. And who knows - on what else.)

I think you've drunk the Koolaid, apparently with gusto. IMO GWBush Co. shall prove to have been as poisonous for 'America' (The Dream\ufffd) as anyone since John Wilkes Boothe (because hardly anyone will say, of Lincoln's assassination: "that was a Good thing.")

I seem to have lived through local history you've adsorbed only from comic books from the American Legion. You have No Idea what 'Americans' abided, pewling and cowering, while turning-in each other - during the McCarthy hysteria.

I may have been a kid, but I was an alert kid and I Saw That-all. I recognize that same cowering today - nascent. We'll see how abject The propaganda-orchestrated Fear becomes - real soon now, I wot.


Guess I'll see ya from the barricades (rather than 'on' the barricades.)

Oh well.

New All I was saying,
Bush addressed "axis of evil" to countries with wich we were, to various degree, at war already. We don't expect any mercy from Axis of Evil, from Iran or North Korea (don't know about you, I certainly don't). Should Venezuela now expect no mercy from us?


------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New No mercy, but plenty of cash
Venezuela is the 5th largest supplier of oil to the USA. We need them just as much as they need us.

Interestingly, on my commute home tonight I heard that 7-11 is breaking off from Citgo as their supplier of gas, due to Chavez's recent UN speech. This is actually good for Venezuela because the announcer said that they were having problems supplying enough gas to meet 7-11's needs, but will still find other US outlets.
lincoln

"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow


Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.


I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.


[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
New They were already planning it
According to the report I heard, they've been planning for a year to offer "7-11 brand" gas. They're just taking the opportunity to make some waves with the press release.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
     The Exorcist - (rcareaga) - (31)
         We all know Shrub is the Anti-Christ. - (imqwerky)
         This kind of talk used to cause wars - (Arkadiy) - (26)
             You really don't understand - (jake123) - (1)
                 And you don't understand - (Arkadiy)
             Let me make sure I understand you correctly - (rcareaga) - (9)
                 Yes you did understand me correctly - (Arkadiy) - (8)
                     The US is going to lose its influence in SA - (jake123)
                     No, actually I didn't - (rcareaga) - (5)
                         I guess you did not... - (Arkadiy) - (4)
                             Your point was... - (rcareaga) - (3)
                                 It is unforgivable to speak truth in diplomacy - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                     Then I can't forgive you for not pretending - (rcareaga)
                                     Chavez has nothing to worry about from the US. - (Another Scott)
                     Scratching head.... - (Simon_Jester)
             And backing coup attempts isn't? - (inthane-chan) - (5)
                 Coup attempts... moi?? - (Ashton)
                 Well, Mr. Chavez would be very happy to - (Arkadiy) - (3)
                     Oh, I don't know - (jake123) - (2)
                         Re: Oh, I don't know - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                             Now, I know you're kidding. - (mmoffitt)
             Ah, you mean talk like... 'Axis of Evil' / 'Evil Empire' - (Ashton) - (7)
                 that is the correct function call - (boxley) - (1)
                     Salon puts the matter into a bit more detail - (Ashton)
                 Axis of Evil... - (Arkadiy) - (4)
                     Just.. War as an extension of politics, then, eh? - (Ashton) - (3)
                         All I was saying, - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                             No mercy, but plenty of cash - (lincoln) - (1)
                                 They were already planning it - (drewk)
         Just curious, how much time did you spend to get the second - (boxley) - (1)
             half a minute, tops - (rcareaga)
         IreadLRPD (new thread) - (lincoln)

Damn thing ate it's way out of the box it was in and lived in my closet for a month.
169 ms