Post #265,027
8/16/06 2:39:44 AM
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Six sick States
A lengthy [link|http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/08/15/states/?source=newsletter| Salon] article on where we're most apt to DieBoldly, see hanging chads or read about the darkies running roadblocks on voting day. Salon's shameful six
There was Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004. Here are the six states where vote suppression could cost voters their voice -- and Democrats the election -- in 2006.
By Art Levine
Aug. 15, 2006 | Eva Steele has a son in the military who is supposed to be fighting for freedom in Iraq, but sitting in a wheelchair in her room in a Mesa, Ariz., assisted-living facility, she wonders why it's so hard for her to realize a basic freedom back here in America: the right to vote.
Arriving in Arizona in January from Kansas City, weakened by four heart attacks and degenerative disk disease, Steele, 57, discovered that without a birth certificate she can't register to vote. Under a draconian new Arizona law that supposedly targets illegal immigrants, she needs proof of citizenship and a state-issued driver's license or photo I.D. to register. But her van and purse were stolen in the first few weeks after she moved to Mesa, and with her disability checks going to rent and medicine, she can't afford the $15 needed to get her birth certificate from Missouri. Her wheelchair makes it hard for her to navigate the bus routes or the bureaucratic maze required to argue with state bureaucrats. She's unable to overcome the hurdles thrown in her way -- and in the way of as many as 500,000 other Arizona residents -- by the state's Republican politicians.
"I think everybody should have the right to vote, no matter if you've got two nickels or you're a millionaire," Steele says. "I think it's a shame you have to jump through so many hoops to prove that you're the person who you say you are."
But Steele's plight has gotten relatively little notice from pundits and progressive activists confidently predicting a sweeping Democratic victory in November. Opinion polls show that a majority of the public wants a Democratic Congress, but whether potential voters -- black and Latino voters in particular -- will be able to make their voices heard on Election Day is not assured. Across the country, they will have to contend with Republican-sponsored schemes to limit voting. In a series of laws passed since the 2004 elections, Republican legislators and officials have come up with measures to suppress the turnout of traditional Democratic voting blocs. This fall the favored GOP techniques are new photo I.D. laws, the criminalizing of voter registration drives, and database purges that have disqualified up to 40 percent of newly registered voters from voting in such jurisdictions as Los Angeles County.
"States that are hostile to voting rights have -- intentionally or unintentionally -- created laws or regulations that prevent people from registering, staying on the rolls, or casting a ballot that counts," observes Michael Slater, the election administration specialist for Project Vote, a leading voter registration and voting rights group. And with roughly a quarter of the country's election districts having adopted new voting equipment in the past two years alone, there's a growing prospect that ill-informed election officials, balky machines and restrictive new voting rules could produce a "perfect storm" of fiascos in states such as Ohio, Florida, Arizona and others that have a legacy of voting rights restrictions or chaotic elections. "People with malicious intent can gum up the works and cause an Election Day meltdown," Steele says.
There is rarely hard proof of the Republicans' real agenda. One of the few public declarations of their intent came in 2004, when then state Rep. John Pappageorge of Michigan, who's now running for a state Senate seat, was quoted by the Detroit Free Press: "If we do not suppress the Detroit [read: black ] vote, we're going to have a tough time in this election cycle."
For the 2006 elections, with the control of the House and the Senate in the balance, Salon has selected six states with the most serious potential for vote suppression and the greatest potential for affecting the outcome of key races. In nearly every case, the voter-suppression techniques have been implemented since 2004 by Republican legislators or officials; only one state has a Democratic secretary of state, and only one has a Democratic-controlled legislature. The shameful six are:
ARIZONA Thanks to a legacy that includes denying Native Americans the right to vote until 1948 and decades more of scheming to block minority voters (the state still has to submit its voting regulations to the Justice Department for approval), there's a good reason that voting reformers view the state's latest "voting integrity" weapon with skepticism. The sweeping, Republican-backed Proposition 200, passed by voters in 2004 and enacted last year, was designed to bar illegal immigrants from accessing state services and voting. It makes Arizona the only state in the country to require proof of citizenship for voter registration.
[More ...] And so it goes... as Kurt says
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Post #265,037
8/16/06 9:18:10 AM
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Shouldnt the following be mandated for federal elections?
It makes Arizona the only state in the country to require proof of citizenship for voter registration. Now I understand a non citizen property owner wanting to vote in muni elections, they should have that right but not a federal election. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #265,039
8/16/06 9:21:55 AM
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Salon can't do better than that?
How DRACONIAN...making someone prove identity before allowing them to vote. Hell, in NJ I need to show more proof to get my driver's license.
And post Chicago in the 60s and 105% voter turnouts in Philly...I'd say making someone prove who they are isn't such a bad idea.
But I like capitalism too...so I don't figure you'll pay much attention;-)
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,043
8/16/06 9:49:57 AM
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In Ash's defense it wouldnt be such a bad idea
if it wasnt tightly coupled to totally loosening any and all rules on absentee balloting.Po folks go to the polls, rich folks get people to do it for them.
thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #265,044
8/16/06 9:56:30 AM
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And those in the middle
bring busses and Lucky Strikes.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,050
8/16/06 10:38:32 AM
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hey pal, lucky strike smokers have a right to vote too :-)
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #265,047
8/16/06 10:09:07 AM
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Voters card + signature == identity
Can't be much more strtaightforward than that...unless, of course, you're a Republican.
jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
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Post #265,164
8/17/06 11:33:03 AM
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Really?
I fail to see partisanship in ensuring that someone is who they say they are prior to allowing them access to government services and/or voting.
Why should I have a 6 point ID test in NJ and be allowed to go to AZ and provide no valid identification prior to voting?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,166
8/17/06 11:39:10 AM
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If you guys had a sane system that used enumeration
instead of registration this would be a non-issue.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #265,170
8/17/06 11:51:19 AM
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Maybe Jersey has more dead voters?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #265,178
8/17/06 1:39:11 PM
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Missing the point entirely
Why is an ID requirement necessarily partisan..since my point was to support an ID requirement and that support generated Can't be much more strtaightforward than that...unless, of course, you're a Republican.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,180
8/17/06 1:48:42 PM
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Has to do with the record
The old jokes about Tammany Hall and southron Democrats are all well and good, but nowadays the people trying to exclude voters have been by and large Republicans. Sorry, there's no getting away from that, no matter how much you might want to... unless your system started using enumeration of voters instead of registration of voters.
Currently, the system in the US for dealing with voting lists is openly partisan, and as such will lead to partisan abuses. The Republican party has been the one in the position to make most of those abuses over the last two or three decades (essentially, since the Reagan years since there's a lot to be said about state level control as well as Congressional/Senatorial control) so they're the folks with the reputation. Give the Dems a nice run like that and people'll be dragging out the Tammany Hall chestnuts again.
In short, it's partisan the way you don't like it (I have seen you crack wise about dead Democrats on a number of occaisions) because of the times you live in. Deal with it, or work to change your system so you won't have to deal with it anymore.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #265,258
8/18/06 9:11:27 AM
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Bullpucky
the >more voters than registered voters< issues that do not gain so much play are in large democratic centers like Philly.
The press is centered in FL and OH and their use of the felon roles and/or roadblocks (alleged).
There's been an equal push by dems to disallow ballots, mostly absentee and these favor Repos.
The fact that we have rules that very state to state about requirements for voting in federal elections is one problem that we have. The fact that some pub like Salon comes out against some bs repo conspiricy to steal elections based on a simple identity verification is...well...ludicrous.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,319
8/18/06 5:02:30 PM
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Ludicrous R'US -- scared brainless., for all to see.
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Post #265,321
8/18/06 5:11:48 PM
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Interesting.
in that you haven't attempted much beyond the link to explain why we should not expect voters to verify their identity.
But my expectation that someone be able to prove they are who they say they are was essentially labeled as a Republican conspiricy.
Pretty sad tactics abound. You can sling mud with the best of them...but the followup is somehow lacking.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,327
8/18/06 5:27:46 PM
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And you, Red Herring Boy, haven't attempted...
..to address the original assertion; namely, that a voter ID card is sufficient identification to be allowed to vote.
You wanna make it hard to get a voter ID card? Fine. We can go round and round about that in another thread. But if I show up at a polling place whose precinct number matches the one on my card, and my name on the card in on the roles, I get a ballot. Plan, simple, and non-exclusionary.
jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
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Post #265,329
8/18/06 5:35:46 PM
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That fishy smell would be you
this thread started with an article that railed against requiring ID to get that registration card.
Your argument is one step further into the process...at the point where ID has supposedly been verified. If you want to check the definitions...I'd say that makes the herring yours.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,335
8/18/06 5:55:27 PM
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National ID card, you say?
Sorry, as always the debbil be in the details. In the name of 'authenticity' you can easily contrive that Poll Tax '00. And set up those magical roadblocks on The Day. Again. We rarely learn; of late, anyway. Wanna see some of the evidence of that, Volume 22?
And via analysis to paralysis, I submit that: *You* (in whatever cladding of the day) cannot PROVE to the casual Stop-randomly-and-Questioner: that you are ABSOLUTELY a certain BeeP.
Great Ctulhu! and epecially in *this* venue - there is *NO* means of "ID" which cannot be folded, spindled, synthesized, mutilated and otherwise - Gotten Around.
Make $15 Fees (Plus.. the related barriers) + delays in long lines during working hours at non-local venues: to obtain your Terrorist-proof National ID BureauMotorVehicles temporary substitute for the Real Thing (an injected RFID, if the corporatocracy mindset prevails.) ??
Why is is that you're such a patsy for the putative.. ever missing the choreography of these dances? Have trouble with metaphors and sleight-of-hand card tricks? Insist on pure Boolean sauce on your bologna sandwich?
Sure, it Would be nice to have the people who vote be the people who Vote (be even nicer if the problem were doubled: by the traffic at those booths.)
Working out the pseudo-'Proof' is clearly a matter needing 'nice'-distinctions and considerable efforts to avoid the Instantly Promulgated selective-hardships as, the the odious Salon article sets out (with only the occasional smarmy ref. to the rather patently obvious Motivations of the Rovian-programmed.)
As to how one achieves uniformity in equal-access to voting booths, without imposing that homogeneity which becomes silly in small towns /VS/ a bureaucratic nightmare in megalopolii:
ARE we? smart-enough in '06 to manage anything .. Successfully?
(Not a rhetorical question - think Iraq, PATRIOT and confiscating tweezers and drinking baby formula - shall they next do a soft-tissue scan for hidden stuff in breast milk?)
Thus far: teh suXx0R IMO Oh You Kid
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Post #265,357
8/18/06 9:51:20 PM
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actually national lottery would work nicely
If you vote you have a shot at 10 million tax free dollars and to make it easy send in your proxy to the party of your choice hehehehhe, thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #265,368
8/18/06 10:45:18 PM
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I like that idea! That would really get the vote out!
Smile, Amy
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]
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Post #265,369
8/18/06 10:47:07 PM
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And the fraud too...
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #265,370
8/18/06 10:55:12 PM
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Ah yes, Fraud. The New American Way.
Smile, Amy
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]
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Post #265,372
8/18/06 11:09:24 PM
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--new its always been the american way :-)
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #265,375
8/18/06 11:26:54 PM
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Well, its so blatant now. It's been outed. :-)
Smile, Amy
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]
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Post #265,405
8/19/06 1:42:01 PM
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Minor points
And via analysis to paralysis, I submit that: *You* (in whatever cladding of the day) cannot PROVE to the casual Stop-randomly-and-Questioner: that you are ABSOLUTELY a certain BeeP. Actually, I could provide such ID when stopped well over 90% of the time (I headge because I don't carry to the corner convenience store.) And yes, it would be nice to have the people who vote be the people they say they are when they vote...why??? mostly because it would end the constant conspiricy theories which always abound from the sore loser side of the fight. Whining makes me cranky.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,407
8/19/06 2:01:00 PM
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An ID isn't "ABSOLUTE" proof.
I think you missed Ashton's point. :-)
While there are reasonable reasons for having verified voter roles and ways of verifying that someone who presents themselves at the polls are who they say they are, there are also easy ways of creating unconstitutional barriers to the franchise.
Requiring a birth certificate as proof of ID might seem reasonable, and in most cases it might be, as the story indicates it can be a hardship for people who don't have that particular proof handy.
IOW, a particular requirement can be onerous or reasonable depending on how flexible it is and it depends on who is enforcing the rules. Uniform, national voter standards would probably be less subject to potential abuse, but the devil's in the details.
Finally, I'm sure you realize that just because you have a piece of paper or a card that matches your person biometrically 12 ways to Sunday doesn't mean that it's absolute proof that you're who you say you are. ID cards can have errors (talk to a set of adult twins sometime to find out how easy it is for ID information to be messed up), and ID cards can be faked. :-)
Cheers, Scott. (Who thinks that low participation is probably more of a danger to our democractic republic than voter fraud.)
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Post #265,409
8/19/06 3:06:38 PM
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And we try to create these extremes
to validate someone's position that since "we can never be sure" that "we shouldn't even try"...or that trying somehow becomes partisan politics.
Sorry, my BS-o-meter is way off the charts on this topic.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,411
8/19/06 3:51:04 PM
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Sure.
"Where you stand depends on where you sit." - Miles' Law. My position isn't that it's too tough a problem. My position is that voting restrictions can be used by the unscrupulous to restrict voter participation. History shows that it has been. If one goes to the organization pointed to in the Salon story, [link|http://www.projectvote.org|Project Vote] one can find things like [link|http://projectvote.org/fileadmin/ProjectVote/pdfs/Project_Vote_Key_Election_Administration_Policy_Recommendations.pdf|Key Recommendations to Improve Election Administration] (3 page .pdf): Voter ID Requirements for Voting
Project Vote opposes ID requirements for voting because they raise barriers to voting while failing to solve any existing problem. While the Help America Vote Act (HAVA) requires first-time registrants who register by mail to show ID before voting, several states now require all registered voters to show ID before voting. Some even require photo ID. While typically the stated motivation is to prevent voter fraud, the reality is that voter fraud is exceedingly rare. Cases of individuals impersonating a registered voter in order to vote at the polls\ufffdthe only kind of fraud that an ID requirement would help to prevent\ufffdare unheard of in recent times.
The arguments against ID requirements are straightforward: 1. They are not needed. ID requirements do not solve any real voter fraud problem. 2. They can be prohibitively expensive for low-income people, especially strict photo ID requirements, which may amount to a poll tax, as was the recent case in Georgia. 3. Voter ID discriminates against minorities, rural voters, the homeless, Native Americans, low income people, the elderly, people with disabilities and persons in large ouseholds, all of whom are less likely than white or affluent voters to have ID. All of those sound like good arguments to me. Those who want to require additional IDs and so forth need to present evidence of why its needed and address the cited problems. [link|http://projectvote.org/fileadmin/ProjectVote/pdfs/Our_Vote__Our_Voices.pdf|Our Vote, Our Voices] (30 page .pdf): Yet every vote was not counted, nor was every eligible citizen able to vote. In 2004, thousands of eligible Americans were denied their right to register and vote in local, state, and federal elections. In Ohio, party officials unfairly attempted to have the state purge 37,000 voters from the rolls. In Pennsylvania, polling places ran out of provisional ballots before noon. In Louisiana and Michigan, poll workers turned away voters with legal forms of identification that the workers had not been trained to accept. In Washington, officials refused to register applicants who failed to check one box. In Arkansas, election officials rejected applications from seventeen-year-olds who would be eighteen on or before November 2nd. In Iowa and Florida, elections officials refused to open early voting sites in locations easily accessible to all voters.
Violations of this sort were not confined to one or two states and, collectively, disenfranchised thousands of Americans. Some violations were intentional, political moves to curb voter power, but many were the result of insufficient resources, inefficient practices or ignorance. Intention aside, these barriers were civil rights violations. Whatever the reasons, the problems should be fixed - especially when the country is apparently so divided. If the people don't have confidence that all votes are treated equally, then our whole system of government is at risk. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #265,414
8/19/06 4:48:47 PM
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And perhaps the only..
..group I can agree with in the "discimination" category is the homeless...or maybe with the addition of the >extreme< rural.
And in order to solve one problem, you leave the process wide open to other abuse.
I disagree with the need to show a mass of id at the poll, the voter registation should be enough. To get registered, ID of some description should be required and verified..and it should be standard between the states what that requirement is.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,416
8/19/06 5:50:34 PM
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call bs on these points
"In Washington, officials refused to register applicants who failed to check one box." check the box, you are in
"In Arkansas, election officials rejected applications from seventeen-year-olds who would be eighteen on or before November 2nd." Come back when you are 18 and entitled to vote
"In Iowa and Florida, elections officials refused to open early voting sites in locations easily accessible to all voters." Dunno about Iowa but early voting sites in florida were at the county seat. These are generally in a downtown location therefore easy to get to by alternate transportation. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #265,419
8/19/06 6:14:11 PM
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Hmmm. On #2.
[link|http://www.sos.arkansas.gov/elections_voter_arkansas_absentee.html|Arkansas voting rules]: To Apply to Register to Vote in Arkansas :
* You must be a U.S. citizen and an Arkansas resident 30 days prior to an election. * You must be age 18 before the next election within the county. * You must not presently be adjudged mentally incompetent by a court of competent jurisdiction. * You must not have been convicted of a felony without your sentence having been discharged or pardoned. * You must not claim the right to vote in another county or state. Someone who is 17 but will be 18 the day of the election is entitled to register to vote (assuming they meet the other requirements), and entitled to vote on election day. [link|http://projectvote.org/fileadmin/ProjectVote/pdfs/States_of_Disarray1.pdf|States of Disarray] (10 page .pdf): Challenges for Future Elections [in Arkansas]
Election administration offices rejected the applications of new voters who would turn 18 by the Presidential Election, but after an intervening local election. Some of these rejected voters received blank applications with their rejection notices, instructing the voters to submit the application after their 18th birthday, but federal law requires only that people be 18 on election day. Requiring young voters to submit duplicate applications leaves more room for error and is an additional administrative barrier to maximizing their opportunity to vote. Proper administrative systems should be able to remedy these problems so that new voters aren\ufffdt required to submit duplicate applications. If people were told they had to be 18 to register, they were given incorrect information. Mistakes like this shouldn't happen. They should have been told that they needed to register after the local election day if they would turn 18 after that day. Even if there's no possibility of two forms causing errors or confusion, the election officials should always give people correct information. One of the purposes of the national HAVA act was to minimize problems like these. There doesn't have to be nefarious intent for there to be problems that should be remedied. The PDF goes into more details on the problems they found in other states. It's not simply a matter of "do the right thing and you're OK". Some people apparently were never told the proper way to fill out the forms or were never given the opportunity to correct the forms and thus were later denied their right to vote. Of course, there will always be problems. But we should be able to come up with ways to give everyone the legal franchise and not have 10s of thousands of people excluded for reasons like these. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #265,447
8/20/06 9:46:11 AM
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You know...I have to call BS on this as well...
"In Washington, officials refused to register applicants who failed to check one box." check the box, you are in Frankly, I don't give a damn. I seem to recall that I have to produce my drivers license and voters registration when I go to vote. But if we're going to follow the rules about filling in a stupid box, shouldn't we follow the rules on abstenee ballots and postmarks?
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Post #265,539
8/21/06 1:46:09 PM
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I call BS on your BS
Uhhh, Box- You entitled to vote if you have become 18 at the time of the election, not at the time of registration. If you are denied registration for the reason you are not 18 when registered but will be 18 when the first election for which the registration is valid is held. It is a violation of Federal law and one's civil rights. Period.
jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
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Post #265,542
8/21/06 1:56:57 PM
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But, what if one can vote before official Election Day?
There would be a possibility of someone "early voting" before they are of age.
Of course, the votes would not be counted until election day.
Alex
When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
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Post #265,547
8/21/06 2:05:45 PM
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Doesn't matter. The vote isn't official until election day
Besides, we all know what happens to votes that are cast absentee....
jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
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Post #266,695
9/5/06 10:38:35 AM
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How about we all just wear Stars?
bcnu, Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #266,701
9/5/06 11:07:33 AM
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My God, Its made of stars
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #266,729
9/5/06 1:51:33 PM
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OT: RFID's in US Passports.
Izzat a good idea, too?
bcnu, Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #266,749
9/5/06 2:49:24 PM
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No
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,218
8/17/06 7:38:48 PM
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Yeah, Beep - hears ya loud and clear
- the rich, no less than the poor are forbidden to steal bread or sleep under bridges.
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Post #265,260
8/18/06 9:14:33 AM
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Alls fair in love and war
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,320
8/18/06 5:05:32 PM
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Well.. ya can't have Both.
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Post #265,322
8/18/06 5:13:06 PM
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Sure you can...just not in unlimited quantity
basic economics...but you don't believe in that, do you ;-)
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,340
8/18/06 6:17:15 PM
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I wot that You Believe in it
and that you have lots of company: them what just loves putting numbers on the Important Things (the easy lazy approach to 'quantifying' liff.)
Trouble always is.. the Important Things (aren't 'Things' in the first place) are nondenumerable, Every Single One. (OK 'one' is a numeral)
But that comfy no-brainer process keeps millions off the streets and orderly arrayed inside those small cloth-covered pens. And the More inside those safe confines, the longer.. the Better, eh? when the population is counted in n.nn [E]8 and all.
Else people might be out thinking, walking, smelling, doing other strange things. A Variety of things - as keeps the grey cells ackshully working. New thoughts.. could make trouble with many assumptions; might even completely wreck the Corn/fructose/media unlimited-Consumption ECON-omy!! Alter their voting options.
(I feel your trepidation ;-)
Carrion.
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Post #265,406
8/19/06 1:44:43 PM
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Alot of those grey cubbies
work to provide things that keep the global population alive...so they can think, walk and smell.
How many of those writers you oft quote would have ever been so artistic had they needed to go hunt their dinner?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #265,439
8/20/06 3:13:44 AM
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Dunno if Thoreau got take-out from local diner
but I'm sure we can compile a list of hardship cases and the work they did during.
I concede the increasing need for a certain 'efficiency' (a very Large word with a family of meanings) especially if population is to be allowed to rise perpetually. But if we rely upon our habitual religio-warz to continue to cull the youngest.. Never Mind about illusions called 'planning'.
Every day is a new 'stage' - a Chance to review and decide what effects that homogenization (which follows inescapably with density) - is having upon the daily possibilities for individuals, within the 'efficiently' herded groups.
I do not believe that any such concept of 'stages / regular review' has reached public awareness, let alone concern. But you can coast only so far upon the arbitrary abstractions of Econ theories, ancient or du jour, with all those freighted assumptions about 'wealth'. Numbers depicting real Life? - now that requires a particularly insouciant brand of faith.
Econ assuredly has its indispensable place in "analysis; then ___; leading to planning" but that ___ connotes regular ENGLISH DISCUSSION: well beyond the Numerology fetish that reduces all human matters to spreadsheets. Too many believe such numbers are 'Real'.
I think we shall be finding out about the limits of recent numerology, as Murica attempts to undo much of the Chimp's wreckage; simultaneously begins to face the physics problems of the thermodynamics of a space ship. Can't not-face physics.. for long.
Big Mistake, that. IMO Philosophy is not optional, even amongst mindless consumers - though it cannot trump physics laws (either.)
Hardship? we ain't seen nuttin yet.
As to the movement of the wealth of the former middle-class rapidly to the top n%? Why, people will be discussing that phenom with slide-rules And guns, I'd guess - just about the time that the late-fee for CCs is arbitrarily hiked to .?. $100. Just a guess.. maybe $75 would cause a few to go Postal?? - let's do a survey.. Never know what the tipping-point really IS, now so we?
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Post #265,089
8/16/06 3:02:55 PM
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Just finished "Man Without a Country"
Easy to read in a few hours (uninterrupted). Kurt has given up... and so it goes. At least he should have called one last meeting of the Royal Astronomers. I'm ready to hang with Montana Wildhack myself.
"He who slings mud generally loses ground. " "Man does not live by words alone, despite the fact that sometimes he has to eat them. " "Nothing so dates a man as to decry the younger generation. " "There was a time when a fool and his money were soon parted, but now it happens to everybody." "We can chart our future clearly and wisely only when we know the path which has led to the present." "You will find that the truth is often unpopular and the contest between agreeable fancy and disagreeable fact is unequal. For, in the vernacular, we Americans are suckers for good news."
During his 1956 presidential campaign, a woman called out to Adlai E. Stevenson: "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!". Stevenson called back "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!".
Come over to the dark side... Stevenson in 2008!
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #265,121
8/17/06 3:07:33 AM
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Hola Danno!
Drop in, y'hear! Since our resident Neoconman has fallen on his sword tongue, there's no flint to sharpen the trepan equipment on. Check out post #265030 - Rolling Stone interview mit der K.
Yup, apparently at 83 -- after all those years ... a workin and a hopin and a wishin we'd pull our collective heads out of our ADM fructose-enhanced ass-size -- he's packed it in.
While I think he's dead right on the status (indeed we trash the planet, mindlessly) and the likely outcome; I mean.. noting how far along the dismemberment we've managed to get in a mere <5 years of mindlessly supporting the eloi, step by-lemming-step -- still, I had supposed that K was on a path to the beginnings of enlightenment. Pity :-/
Ah well, it is said that in the Kali Yuga (this one), it is so 'dense' that Three Avatars are needed! Perhaps by the time the next replaces the current living one, he will have to be comforting a different life-form (one which actually does not fear to Live.)
What Kurt needed to do, in time.. was read more Grooks -
If the Universe didn't exist it wouldn't be missed.
Oblig Manfred quote (directed at an insouciant priest attempting to give him Absolution, despite his disdain..)
Old man, it is not so hard to ... die...
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Post #265,133
8/17/06 9:38:03 AM
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;-)
No topic. None necessary. You've made my day!
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #265,272
8/18/06 11:22:11 AM
8/18/06 11:22:38 AM
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swiftly slither sideways.
I've been wanting to do that all week :)
Smile, Amy
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]
Edited by imqwerky
Aug. 18, 2006, 11:22:38 AM EDT
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Post #265,323
8/18/06 5:13:22 PM
8/18/06 5:21:32 PM
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She sells C++ shells on the Cshore
Yesssss, clearly the Repos most-all, would have been sent by the Sorting Hat ---> directly to Slitherin
Cheney / Malfoy in '08
(No es una problema should his heart-thing stop during.. ssssuperfluous appendage)
PSsssssss . . . Oblig. links from that dassstardly Salon -- which occasionally calls a sssspayed a sssspade:
[link|http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/08/18/anaconda/index.html?source=newsletter| Snuggling with anacondas]
[link|http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/08/18/rattlers/index.html?source=newsletter| The rattlers' inconvenient truth].
[link|http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/08/18/pythons/index.html?source=newsletter| When pythons attack].
Edited by Ashton
Aug. 18, 2006, 05:21:32 PM EDT
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