Post #257,017
5/28/06 11:36:05 AM
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Independent from the observer? No.
While it is altogether likely that you and I and Peter and everyone else here would find the same painting "beautiful"..say Van Gogh's Nightwatch...this is NOT an objective standard...this is a common perception among humans with similar programming.
And since we have "common programming", I also agree with you that some of the "shit" that passes for art (including shit :-)) is indeed shit.
doesn't change the point I made nor the point Peter made, however.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #257,018
5/28/06 11:47:55 AM
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I guess I have to agree
about "human" and "common programming". The problem starts when "programming" gets so vague that anything goes. Or when the carriers of a particular kind of "programming" decide that their programming is the only one in the world that does not deserve respect.
The reason a "programming" survives is because it's advantageous for a society to have it. When the society decides to eliminate its own concept of beauty, the society is sick or suicidal.
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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
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Post #257,019
5/28/06 11:59:25 AM
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And I with you
Just because there is no "objective" standard doesn't mean there cannot be a common belief. I find the defense of some of the "art" now to be troubling in that fashion.
The vehemence to defend the most marginal simply means that people are wiling to suspend their consideration of the greater good in persuit of anarchy.
The care is in where the line is drawn...which is where most err on the side of caution...hence open displays of fesces in major museums and galleries.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #257,021
5/28/06 12:08:16 PM
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s /Van Gogh/Rembrandt perhaps?
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Post #257,022
5/28/06 12:20:25 PM
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Yeah...my bad.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #257,024
5/28/06 2:03:07 PM
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Not I
I had never ween Night Watch, so I just googled it. Granted painting/art will always look better when actually view, I found Night Watch a painting that I would easily pass on. Just not something that I'd be interested in owning or viewing.
In Minneapolis there is a sculpture of a huge spoon and cherry. I consider it interesting, but not worth the money spent.
Common perceptions/programming? Dunno. Unless you want to define it as what the majority believes is beautiful.
I think I'll stick to my statement that there is no Objective Beauty. Beauty is completely subjective. What I think is beauty, is beautiful, no matter what you may think. And, of course, the reverse is also true.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
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Post #257,026
5/28/06 5:54:29 PM
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Its a huge painting
and it catches you when you stand in front of it.
But your statement is one more nail in the coffin of the notion of objective beauty.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #257,027
5/28/06 6:31:51 PM
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Yabbut
Without there being an objective standard of beauty, if beauty is subjective, if it varies from individual to individual, from culture to culture, how can one rationalize controlling what art the public is allowed to see with 'freedom'? How can you tighten the noose areound the neck of 'freedom of speech'?
Objective standards of beauty and art are necessary to the next step in der Master Plan. It is necessary to that these standards appear unlinked to a particular religion, as well (you know, like 'creation science'). Therefore the declaration of 'humanism'.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #257,036
5/28/06 9:27:26 PM
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And we will burn that which fails the test!
For the greater good!
That's where this crypto-fascistic bullshit of Marlowe's leads.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #257,065
5/29/06 12:52:31 PM
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Um...
you have been reading me in this thread, right?
You can't.
The problem is that this inability is now being taken advantage of by the fringe who know that no matter what now (let me throw shit at religious artifacts...I'll call it art and they'll >have< to let me show it) they'll will be able to gain noteriety.
Its "shock art"...and the emphasis is on shock...cause I don't even think the folks making it think its art either. They're "making a statement".
And you know full well that I understand this as the "dark side" of freedom...and that its necessary to endure. I don't go, don't give it my money...vote with my feet.
Same with satellite radio. Stern went there. I will not. Again, voting with my feet.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #257,072
5/29/06 6:09:12 PM
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ROFL... Come now, Beep!
I actually agree - but 'shock art' is a form of communication as well.
My point was that this whole 'tempest' was caused by our own 'private dick''s laying a background for censoring art (probably in the name of saving the cheeeldrun).
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #257,073
5/29/06 6:25:01 PM
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Oh, come on now - 'Saving the Cheeeldrun' is . . .
. . so "Last Century". Surely there must be a way to link "art" and "objective beauty" to the pressing need for National Security.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #257,074
5/29/06 6:35:41 PM
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Here's how:
Art - appreciated by the loyal (I'm feeling uplifted just looking at it. Or I've got flatulence. One or t'other):
[image|http://www.skylinepictures.com/Freedo1.jpg||||]
Shit - viewers are terrorists and could do with a good arresting:
[image|http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f4/The_Scream.jpg/463px-The_Scream.jpg||The work of a left-wing mentalist||]
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #257,191
5/30/06 1:47:36 PM
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why dont you like the picture of a labrador wearing a coat?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #257,687
6/4/06 12:28:30 PM
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Gah! I've seen "Glory to CPSU"posters that were better made.
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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
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