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New Dave Winer thinks Microsoft is in the right about its XML.
[link|http://archive.scripting.com/2005/10/12#When:12:00:54PM|http://archive.scrip...2#When:12:00:54PM]


After years of maintaining absolute control over user's data in Microsoft Office, the new version promises to give total control to the user, and creates a path for developers to siphon users from Microsoft to new or specialized products. One would think that this would spawn an explosion of new products designed to please Office users but that's not what's happening. A group of large technology companies is proposing a competing set of formats, and has formed an alliance to confuse the market, and at least double the work of any developer who might want to support their products (with almost no installed base) alongside Microsoft's (with a monopolistic dominant installed base). It's not surprising that the group is lead by the detritus of the last generation of tech companies. The thriving companies, Google, Yahoo and others have the good sense to sit this time and money-waster out.


The thing is, [link|http://interviews.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/12/1610249&tid=102&tid=11|SlashDot just linked] to an [link|http://madpenguin.org/cms/html/62/5304.html|interview with OpenOffice.org's Gary Edwards] who explains that (so far as he can see) Microsoft is threatening take it's bat and ball and go home, when everyone else isn't even playing with it. This is especially interesting because it seems to have taken Microsoft this long to realize that OpenDocument and all it means takes away their Office leverage...

Wade.
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
Expand Edited by static Oct. 13, 2005, 09:56:07 PM EDT
New Dave Winer is pretty much a numbskull anyway.
And has always been a bit of a Microsoft apologist, to boot.

So fuck him; why does anyone still give a shit about his opinion?


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New He's surprised?
The bottom line is, nobody trusts Microsoft - for good reason.

If I remember correctly Winer was deeply involved with Microsoft in the development of SOAP. Microsoft then tried to pass it off as its own.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New You get the Bob Award for the day.
[image|http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif||||]Check your its-es.
-YendorMike

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
New We need a weecode for this.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New No, we REALLY don't
Obnoxious pedants can damn well work at it. No point making it easier for them.
New Hear, Hear!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New How about us polite pedants?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Well, if you're polite enough, you won't need it... :)
New It's a special case
  • Contraction
    • The cat's out of the bag.
    • It's out of the bag.
  • Possessive
    • The cat's feet are out of the bag.
    • It's feet are out of the bag.
New Except that the possessive of "it" is "its" not "it's"
I assume this is because the plural of "cat" is "cats", so you need the apostrophe to distinguish the possessive "cat's". But since the plural of "it" is "they", you don't need the apostrophe to tell that "its" is a possessive.

Wow, that's stupid now that I think about it.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Not quite the right reason
"Its" the possessive is like that to distinguish it from the contraction "It's" from "It is". It's a special case; an exception to its more normal form with other nouns.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Its? It's stupid!
If you see the sentence, "It's its." written down, it's unambiguous which its is it's.

If you hear its, which its is its? It's much harder to tell!

Just another way that spoken and written English differ.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Not that hard to tell
"It's its" is quite unambiguous as to its meaning, while "Its it's", being "Its it is" is simply nonsensical.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New It's ambiguous
"It's its?"
"It's it's!"

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Ahh, YAN argument for Victor Borge's Audible Punctuation :-)

New Fascinating, how so many native speakers of English...
...can have so many theories -- and all be so wrong.

"Its" is neither a contraction, nor a possessive form of a noun or an ordinary (nominative) pronoun; it's a whole 'nother *class* of word, a _possessive pronoun_.

"Its" has the exact same kind of relation to "it" as "his" to "he", "her" and "hers" to "she", "my" and "mine" to "me", and so on. (You'll notice that the other possessive pronouns, "my", "his", "her", etc, don't have any apostrophes either.)

Yes, you were the *most* wrong, Critter, using the damn apostrophe... But you can take some small comfort from the fact that all the guys who pointed out *that* this was wrong of you, were themselves wrong as to *why* it was so.

Now, though, you -- all of you! -- know better... So don't do it again.

HTH.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New Hey.. it's like this-yere
with readers of Holy-scriptures n'stuff too - everybody's got an opinion about what's In one o' them Manuals -- and the loudest never even ackshully read the sucker with any comprehension - just the Readers Disgust Condensed McBook.



(Guessing that Garrison Keillor rarely makes it to your bailiwick?)
Just on Lake Wobegone; a test for the chicanery of your arcanery, extent of your Murican trivia-cache, CRC:

The Whiffenpoof Song
Bowdlerized as a P\ufffdan to English Majors, delivered via nicely in-tune chorus; all refs to personal pronouns in the feminine, commencing -

From the tables down at Mary's ...

and concluding,

..then we'll go and have our nails done and our hair done.

:-\ufffd

New its is a polit way to write "grunt"
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New I's will do it at each and every possible opportunity now..
Its the easiest, cheapest way to get the attention of others without actually having anything pertinent to say. Easy misspellings would be second.
This is only a means of communication. We (BIG generalization) know the language and how to use and abuse it. Typing a draft for a RFC is somewhat different; I have my whole team looking over my shoulder and nitpicking every comma and word usage. Here, we, I, anyway, post in first draft mode as we would speak. As in meatspace, I often think about what I am about to say before spewing, but sometimes I don't. At one end of the posting spectrum, we have people who post in a convoluted style which forces one to make an attempt to understand what is being said. At the other, we have posters who attempt to post in the style of a southern gentleman, parodying a migrant worker quoting a drunken buffalo. In Alaska.
If it makes a difference to the content (uncle jack and the horse, for example), it's not unreasonable to check on the spelling and punctionation. If it goes though without ambiguity, however, the message is still understood. If all you have to do is complain about the syntax, punctuation, and font type, you have way too much time on your hands. If you have something to say, just fucking say it. If you have doubts about whether your sense of humor is understood, or even doubts if you actually have a sense of humor, there are a plethora of emoticons (disgusting little buggers...) that you can use.
We're just here to talk, not bitch about the language. Or write a new and improved (I hate that phrase) dictionary. No, not dictionary.

Picees... place?? oh fuckit, Amy, you do it...

Hugh
New (I think we found Hugh's button.)
[image|http://brainstorming.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/emoticon.jpg|0|A smiley|300|459]

Cheers,
Scott.
New MWHAAHAAAA!!
New "Pisces", perhaps? HTH!
Loved the "punctionation", though.

Hugs 'n' kisses,



   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New ...as in "off"?
</edmund_blackadder>


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Halleluiah!
Well said, Hugh!

Although sometimes it is fun to razz people for their crappy spelling/punctuation, I agree with you. This place is where we can let our collective hair down. It can be messy sometimes. I only get grumpy on the subject if I can't figure out what the hell someone is trying to say.

Mostly our rantings are merely the written equivalent of applying noogies.

We just love ya, doncha know!

Peachy!
Amy

Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
New Yabut.. the scary part is -
in the larger milieu (if anything really does exist outside this continuum?) - the dysfunction in the basics of English is only increasing. And since any attorney can point out the havoc wreaked (another fine word used less.. then oft mispeeled or mis-spake) - by just one of those misplaced commas, well -

(Then too, it's been so long since I had to cite the Rulez, instinct is quicker and generally close-enough.) But ya can't do instinct later.. if'n ya never learned this stuff first. Many ~mid-20s never did, it seems by what I read elsewhere.

No es una problema for basic comprehension here, as you point out -- but I don't find CRC's reminders (while maybe shovelling shit against that tide of homogenized everything) to be other than a small effort to innoculate? against the daily language murder - much of it more and more like Ad-speak and TLA-nonspeak, elsewhere.

As we become post-literate via all those transistors and omnipresent icons, videos.
Suddenly it's Memphis (and not the one in TN); glyphs all around + bizspeak with \ufffds in lieu of any prior and difficult thought process.

As for the different styles here - yeah, nice simple declarative sentences from primers are fine for nice simple ideas and for sequential instruction manuals. And everyone could standardize on that as Style Sheet #1. I suppose. As to the others: none compels. If the content isn't worth it, it won't be missed.

(I can't comment upon the onerous requirement that some extra thought might be required for non-W3C Standard Style Sheets - might need to quote a line from Richard the III, in decidedly non-standard phrasing.)



Diffrunt strokes, er //s R'Us LLC

New Ooops! CRC gets all medieval on yer ass!
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New D'oh. Fixed.
I almost daily curse my apostrophe key because it likes to bollix up my SQL, so I'm not really surprised I've been ignoring when I'm supposed to use it correctly.

Wade.
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
New Microsoft XML Sample
<?xml version=1.0?>
<document application="mswd">
<data encoding="base64">
OIAJOMGOPJGOJOJODAJOWEEJ8WEURI
OJSEHILRHAKSHDLKHADSKLFHALKJHI
AAIEHDLKFHALKJDHKLFAHLDKFJHALK
JSDHFLKAJSHDKLJFHALKSDJHFLKADH
</data>
</document>

Fat lot of good XML is going to do MS's victims. They already do this shit in their preferences PLists on Mac OS X.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New That's what the OpenDocument guys are complaining about.
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
New Re: Microsoft XML Sample
\n<?xml version="1.0"?>\n<w:wordDocument xmlns:w="[link|http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/wordml|http://schemas.micro.../word/2003/wordml]">\n    <w:body>\n        <w:p>\n            <w:r>\n                <w:t>Hello, World.</w:t>\n            </w:r>\n        </w:p>\n    </w:body>\n</w:wordDocument>\n
--
Chris Altmann
New That "link" doesn't work
There's no schema at http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/wordml. In fact there's nothing at http://schemas.microsoft.com. At least nothing useful.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Well, duuuh.
Its only proposed. And by gummit, it'll be kept that way.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New Point was ...
If it's supposed to be a reference to the proposal, it would be nice to see what they're actually proposing.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Sorry, that's proprietary.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New ICLRPD: Sorry, that's proprietary. (new thread)
Created as new thread #230684 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=230684|ICLRPD: Sorry, that's proprietary.]
--
Steve
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu]
New That is on a knead to know baseless.
All your dough are belonging to us. Anything else is pointless.

Or as Grygus said, that proprietary information. I am guessing you'll need to sign an NDA for that.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New knead this
My example was actually of the existing WordML format for Word 2003. The docs can be downloaded here:
[link|http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=FE118952-3547-420A-A412-00A2662442D9&displaylang=en|http://www.microsoft...D9&displaylang=en]

There are binary chunks in that format (it is a single xml format unline OO.org); things like graphics, VBA projects, OLE objects, and some other special Word features, but most of it is actual individual elements and attributes with actual primitive data types in text form.


Below is a preview of the schemas for the new default document formats for Office 12:
[link|http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=15805380-F2C0-4B80-9AD1-2CB0C300AEF9&displaylang=en|http://www.microsoft...F9&displaylang=en]

Note that these formats are much like the OO.org ones. They are a number of XML files bundled with graphics (in standard formats) and some binary chunks (like OLE embedded objects and VBA projects) compressed into a ZIP file.



--
Chris Altmann
New I would love to download those references...
but, I need to verify I am using a WGA certified Operating System, plus it is in .msi format.

WTF, does this mean I am locked out? Effectively Yes.

Is this a good thing? No.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New It's a URI. It doesn't have to.
--
Chris Altmann
New But, how are
verification programs or format checking programs supposed to reference the the DTD describing the "format"?

Lets make sure we understand, a URL is a URI.

And why doesn't Microsoft have a schema similarly available for its XML format?

Oh, here is the OASIS Stuff for ODT:
  • [link|http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/12571/OpenDocument-schema-v1.0-os.rng|Open Documnet Schema]
  • [link|http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/12570/OpenDocument-manifest-schema-v1.0-os.rng|Open Document Manifest Schema]
  • [link|http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/12569/OpenDocument-strict-schema-v1.0-os.rng|Open Document Strict Schema]
  • [link|http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/12572/OpenDocument-v1.0-os.pdf|For those who want the PDF]
So, I guess, you now understand what I mean (I hope)

And here is a good DTD for XML in any case:
[link|http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema.dtd|W3C's XML Schema DTD] and [link|http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes|W3C's XML Schema Datatypes]
Which is a good place to start.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
     Dave Winer thinks Microsoft is in the right about its XML. - (static) - (40)
         Dave Winer is pretty much a numbskull anyway. - (CRConrad)
         He's surprised? - (Andrew Grygus)
         You get the Bob Award for the day. - (Yendor) - (24)
             We need a weecode for this. -NT - (pwhysall) - (4)
                 No, we REALLY don't - (hnick) - (3)
                     Hear, Hear! -NT - (imric)
                     How about us polite pedants? -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                         Well, if you're polite enough, you won't need it... :) -NT - (hnick)
             It's a special case - (ChrisR) - (17)
                 Except that the possessive of "it" is "its" not "it's" - (drewk) - (5)
                     Not quite the right reason - (jake123) - (4)
                         Its? It's stupid! - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                             Not that hard to tell - (jake123) - (1)
                                 It's ambiguous - (ben_tilly)
                             Ahh, YAN argument for Victor Borge's Audible Punctuation :-) -NT - (Ashton)
                 Fascinating, how so many native speakers of English... - (CRConrad) - (9)
                     Hey.. it's like this-yere - (Ashton)
                     its is a polit way to write "grunt" -NT - (boxley)
                     I's will do it at each and every possible opportunity now.. - (hnick) - (6)
                         (I think we found Hugh's button.) - (Another Scott) - (1)
                             MWHAAHAAAA!! -NT - (hnick)
                         "Pisces", perhaps? HTH! - (CRConrad) - (1)
                             ...as in "off"? - (pwhysall)
                         Halleluiah! - (imqwerky)
                         Yabut.. the scary part is - - (Ashton)
                 Ooops! CRC gets all medieval on yer ass! -NT - (jb4)
             D'oh. Fixed. - (static)
         Microsoft XML Sample - (tuberculosis) - (12)
             That's what the OpenDocument guys are complaining about. -NT - (static)
             Re: Microsoft XML Sample - (altmann) - (10)
                 That "link" doesn't work - (drewk) - (9)
                     Well, duuuh. - (folkert) - (6)
                         Point was ... - (drewk) - (5)
                             Sorry, that's proprietary. -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                 ICLRPD: Sorry, that's proprietary. (new thread) - (Steve Lowe)
                             That is on a knead to know baseless. - (folkert) - (2)
                                 knead this - (altmann) - (1)
                                     I would love to download those references... - (folkert)
                     It's a URI. It doesn't have to. -NT - (altmann) - (1)
                         But, how are - (folkert)

We could go on a quest!
164 ms