Post #222,060
8/31/05 9:43:31 PM
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The worst natural disaster in US history
Authorities have declared martial law, ordered the evacauation of everyone. They may let you return in a week or so, or so they say. Months are more likely the case. Realistically speaking, NO is a no-mans land for at least the next 3 months.
Yeah Greg, you were right. It wasn't as bad as they were saying.
It was worse.
----------------------------------------- George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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Post #222,062
8/31/05 9:47:07 PM
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I agree completely
I've never seen anything like this in my life... there are no words.
Even finding one of our relatives doesn't ease the shock much... it's just so unbelievable.
On another note, Silverlock, how are you? I hope you're doing okay after your own recent personal tragedy.
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,069
8/31/05 10:08:41 PM
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compared to the galveston hurricane or the okeechobee
one it may have caused less deaths but its effect on people although the percentage of lives lost is lower is much more dramatic. [link|http://www.1900storm.com/|http://www.1900storm.com/] galveston [link|http://www.srh.noaa.gov/mfl/newpage/Okeechobee.htm|http://www.srh.noaa....ge/Okeechobee.htm] lake O it is a tragedy that is being compounded by flooding, you have to admire the spirit of the mississipi coastal residents, waveland mississippi doesnt exist anymore, 4 residents found, all structures missing. I woll visit in about 6 weeks as I still mean to retire there. Be good to get an idea of where the high water mark is. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #222,075
8/31/05 10:13:28 PM
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You probably have something to say I'd be interested in
I just wish you had said it intelligibly. Punctation and grammar were developed for a reason. '
----------------------------------------- George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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Post #222,080
8/31/05 10:31:33 PM
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feel free to not read me in my posts :-)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #222,084
8/31/05 10:42:31 PM
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I try
I see every other person here (aside from Ashton) take the time to insure at least a modicum of effort is taken to make their posts conform to standards of one of the three Rs. Why can't you take an extra 12 seconds or so to do the same?
Is your time so valuable to you that clarity isn't that much of a concern? Judging by the number of posts you've made, you've got a hell of a lot of time on your hands. Spend a little bit of it investing in a period or a comma. Or hell, even a capital letter. Go ahead and give us a shock.
----------------------------------------- George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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Post #222,099
8/31/05 11:45:09 PM
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Come on man, if he did that . . .
. . it just wouldn't be Box, and reality would be the poorer for that. I see some problems for anyone who took sentence diagraming seriously in school, 'cause that stuff cripples the mind. It just isn't that hard if you consume Boxlish holograms entire, as one would a freshly peeled live shrimp or wriggling anchovie.
Now Ashtonese, that's nearly impossible to swallow whole.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #222,100
8/31/05 11:51:51 PM
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I agree
Ashtonese is an aquired taste. :)
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,103
8/31/05 11:58:28 PM
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I'd rather have the anchovy.
----------------------------------------- George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
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Post #222,315
9/1/05 6:13:58 PM
9/1/05 6:14:21 PM
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So what is the correct term, Ashtonese or Ashlish?
And is there a difference?
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
Edited by jb4
Sept. 1, 2005, 06:14:21 PM EDT
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Post #222,318
9/1/05 6:15:52 PM
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Bafflegarblish
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Post #222,331
9/1/05 6:35:30 PM
9/1/05 6:44:20 PM
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Dupe - ignore.
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
Edited by Nightowl
Sept. 1, 2005, 06:44:20 PM EDT
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Post #222,332
9/1/05 6:35:42 PM
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Ashtonish?
Hehehehehe...... play on words.
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,344
9/1/05 7:19:29 PM
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Ashtonese.
It has a slightly more aristocratic air to it, where as Boxlish is the language of the common people.
apt-get install godlike-powers
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Post #222,351
9/1/05 7:43:40 PM
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I'd have to agree.
After all, we have enough already to ashtonish us. ;)
(giggle)
Don't mind me, John comes home tonight and he's in the air now. Distractions are good. ;)
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,377
9/1/05 10:04:57 PM
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If I started writing in plain-vanilla instruction-manual
sequential prose - WTF would you have to bitch about, then? You'd lose a valuable source of meat protein in your prissy |Organized| jelloware. (BTW - 'swallow whole' is an apt description of ad-speak; thanks for the compliment.) [Short-form: bottom]
So it's homogenized One-Style-fits-All-Here / max%compress that youse Boolean-heads crave, eh? Why not then import some more .tar.gz.zip.cab -heads, and get on with this important work?
Who needs perspicuity or nuance when ya gots good and then, Double-Plus-Good? (except.. I don't see any young Orwells bein whelped in these parts, either.) Ah, maybe it's about my failure to employ those everyday software tools as have formed your ideas about 'proper speech', since digital teenhood -
\ufffd I can tell that my posts are incomprehensible. \ufffd No one ever replies. \ufffd Except to argue the points raised, \ufffd After bitching about how they were raised. \ufffd That should be a clue to anyone, \ufffd Except me. ... \ufffd I must be dense. \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd QED
ie [short form] None compels.
Next though - maybe I'll go for Petulance; that seems a pretty popular diversion, when things are slow. (But I'd really have to draw the line at getting an X-Box; running Vi (if Vi had enough factory-installed \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd))
Carrion - but maybe a bit more imaginatively than this batch, huh?
Hmmm, maybe someone will comprehend This post - a First!
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Post #222,378
9/1/05 10:15:18 PM
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Like I said elsewhere
Ashtonese is an aquired taste.
I've actually come to enjoy your posts, provided the dictionary helps me get the gist of most of it. And it's been a challenge to learn all those new words, (can't hurt the brain any, right???)
I am a fan of Ashtonese, and I think it's a good thing to have an entire "language" named after you... like boxlish, it distinguishes you from *EVERY ONE ELSE* on our beloved IWT site.
Don't change a thing, Ashton, be just who and what you are... after all, isn't that the entire point of us all being here? Just being able to exist amongst a diverse group of people and yet still *be a part* of them as well.
To you who be you, from I whoooo be I. ;)
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,381
9/1/05 10:21:50 PM
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But this one was very clear
AND interesting.
Maybe your vocabulary is so much larger than mine my eyes glaze over.
Sometimes when people use a word I don't understand I look it up, or pretend to understand it in context. But because SO MANY of your words are new to me, I can't do the context and to look up makes me think of the old days learing hebrew, looking up a word at a time, and I run away.
On the other hand, when I am writing for an audience (any audience), I tend to rework my writing to remove what may be considered complex words, simplifying phrases, etc.
You seem to do the opposite.
I was having an interesting (to me) thought this morning. I speak in clipped phrases, yes/no, short answers, quick questions, etc. But I always attempt to keep in mind clarity, and always add more if it seems it is needed.
I then realized.
I both speak and write as if I was programming.
As much as is needed to convey the concept, no more.
And then I realized that when people went into long winded explantions of things it really annoys me. I reviewed recent interactions with a variety of people, and was able to determine that whenever I thought we were in agreement of something, they continued to explain their point.
Wife, kids, coworkers, everyone does it.
Why?
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Post #222,383
9/1/05 10:28:29 PM
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As I've often said...
When programmers communicate, they tend to be both precise and ineffective.
What is said is precise and sufficient. But since very few listeners will analyze what is said carefully enough, they fail of the goal of actually communicating.
The extra long-windedness that others have are like a series of checksums in a communication channel that is assumed to be very lossy. When dealing with non-programmers, their assumption tends to be correct.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #222,391
9/1/05 10:43:51 PM
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Disagree
At least for myself.
I tend to reflect back what someone said in detail to ensure we both understand someting the same way.
But long winded speeches merely obscure the meaning and give people escape hatches to deny a specific interpretation. These people are not trying to communicate, they are merely enjoying the sound of their own voice.
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Post #222,393
9/1/05 10:55:49 PM
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I think we just demonstrated the "lossy" part. :-)
I said that when trying to communicate with non-programmers, their assumption tends to be correct. You are a programmer, and hence do not serve as an example either way on that assertion.
You point out that often people are talking for purposes other than communication. I agree, but consider that tangential to the question of why people are long-winded when they are obviously trying to communicate.
And a final point of irony. Being long-winded only works in some contexts. For instance those who deal with journalists learn to avoid long-winded answers. Journalists are masters of taking snippets of an answer out of context and using it to portray the illusion of an intent to communicate where there was none. And journalists will not bother repeating anything that they think will lose their audience. You don't own a TV station of a newspaper. You will never get to explain yourself once you've been misunderstood.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #222,395
9/1/05 11:02:52 PM
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Experiences language teachers know it, too.
Though they don't think of it in the same way. My Japanese teacher pointed out several times that we shouldn't worry about understanding every word - many can be figured out from context or even completely ignored.
Wade.
d-_-b
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Post #222,385
9/1/05 10:31:46 PM
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Why are we who we are?
We usually speak as who we are, per our personality.
This is something that's become more and more evident as I wrestle with the dilemmna of my SIL.
See, she's an abrupt, to the point, straight shooting person, and hence she speaks like that. It matches her personality.
Ex: Brenda: please do such and such, thanks.
Me for example, I would write, "Brenda, would you please do this for me? I would appreciate it, thanks."
Difference is in the abrupt and relaxed styles. If you tend to be laid back, you are writing/speaking in a relaxed manner. If you tend to be abrupt, you clip off your sentences and write/speak in the same manner. Programmers are a good example, mathematicians, another.
I would suspect that Ashton speaks in a thoughtful, complex manner, because he has a thoughtful complex personality. I would suspect that Box talks in a rushed, run together manner, that is somewhat haphazard, because he has a personality where he feels like he's rushing, or hurrying to present things, not necessarily an impatient one, but more like an eager one. He's eager to present his views.
I would have to truly examine others styles to have any idea whether my theory is correct, but so far in many, it's matched. Ross for example, he had a negative, sarcastic and abrasive manner many times in his posts, and he seemed to be a negative personality to boot.
So in a sense, our speaking/writing style reflects who and what we are.
That's my take on it, anyway.
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,388
9/1/05 10:40:58 PM
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You are way off about Box
Calm, slow, detailed speaker.
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Post #222,389
9/1/05 10:42:45 PM
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As I said
I could be wrong, and I admit that.
But a lot of people do mirror their personality in their speaking and/or writing methods. There's always the exceptions, of course.
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,408
9/2/05 2:04:29 AM
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Gosh.. I'll have to revise, then
We come from different backgrounds and assumptions (maybe even about the Why's of adjectives and adverbs - and the need to have an attention span which can bear them all in mind?) I also predate the boomers and their 'entrepreneurial' nonethic: Rape of lesser-brained ones is OK, in My pursuit of Mine. Politics/language - inextricable, often.
My path crosses (most here) in that I have as much experience with complex techno as anyone else here; it's not the same sort exactly - but then physics Rulez everything you do that needs a machine, as much as it does an accelerator complex or a hydraulic pump.
Yes, I'd thought ~something like that about your talents. And about the programming model. Few are as self-aware of their own methodology as you; I'd deem that more of a blessing than a curse - but you'd have to look at the word, 'efficiency', I wot: if that figures large in "why I choose this?", well - if IWE were a Wikipedia and that's All it were: (___)
That facility + the fact of your actually Knowing IT-stuff down to most Gotcha-levels (not shitting self and bystanders, like say, some grads of one of those MCSx diploma mills?) is why your hilarious, simultaneously stark "Instructions to the PFY" scans, at least to me: As Technical Art.
You didn't waste a syllable, but then the material did not need many adjectives, adverbs -- the usual stuff of speech, when it's about homo-saps and our crazy mixed-up sets of brains (intellect, emotion, instinct etc.) No extra modifiers would have added anything (though perhaps just One.. subtly humorous in-quip? might have raised it to Masterpiece level.)
But a fair self-assessment deserves a response in kind. I'll even format for your short-line preference (an idea I don't find 'silly' BTW - merely, like my 'style': unconventional.)
I am not you, to coin a phrase. ;-) At some nebulous point I had to ~choose: 'Art'? (ie music) or 'Science'? (ie go with a facility for right answers to simple techno stuff, as methodical people so Love to test for).
I knew I couldn't hack it as a prof. musician (details, reasons wouldn't be a very good story). Thus I took the easy-way, until it finally dawned on me what daily-doing 'Science' is like. I was fortunate to find the exact-Right niche for one such as I; that was not on the frontiers of Theoretical- anything, (except for a few forays -- everyone gets to be a Hero for 15 min.)
Of course, most here are not 'doing science' either - are applying tools and lore to problem-solving, not invention or conceptualization. No theoreticians here now ; no Ross. (No idea what Ben does after 'work' - I hasten to add.)
Vocabulary First, I think many science students today would be surprised (and need that dictionary) to read the Giants. Most of those were educated == wealthy, and that meant Actually Educated, as in Rigorously. as in 'liberal arts' not just F=MA. Who else could afford the time, \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd for experiments?
I graduated HS early. To read the stuff I wanted to read I had to understand words: their words, not my kid-speak or market-speak. And especially-Not the then primitive marketing-speak (And you Can start a sentence with 'And'). Needed words.. even to read a book on Alchemy, when written by someone who knew Cato from catatonic.
However one does form speech habits, I have had to no-less simplify from what I knew to be the nuance I intended, just as you - though rarely in academe. I also realized early-on the Fact of Murican society being notoriously anti-'intellectual' (by which most people really mean: all that trouble! to really Think, explore! about the difference between simple and a nice glib simplistic 'answer'.)
Picking a $64 word when a simpler one is very-close - we know what that's called. But surrendering a $64 word for 20 others, that don't quite capture it - that's another. (Pecksniff! beats Asshole! in a walk, for bearing down on the underlying source of one's discontent with an er, Asshole - no?)
{All the more fun - if the pecksniff has to Look It Up, I say.}
Finally, I 'joined' this motley group as did most - via creeping gradualism. And if all that finally proved topical [in the various 'here's] had come to ~~ pip B:=A:*.*/V ? we wouldn't be having this conversation.
If I had to 'defend' my 'style', I might observe that, my experience teaches that - all original mental activity is Associative, in any mode that is seeking "the New" == because that IS the only "way we Tell". (And yes, in full snake-concentration mode re a particular problem unravelling -- one is Not seeking The New, but merely a solution to That Puzzle.)
Digression - Besides, these categories suck, anyway: there's Science in Music & vice versa. (Ever read any of Hofstadter's epistles? See the Sci. Am. article re a Chopin etude score: as visual art?)
A Bach fugue.. there's at least one which keeps ascending into new keys. It never Resolves! [OK - trans into Barry-speak:]
Stoned on some Sinsemilla of a grade most only ever hear about + some Bushmills, other powdery aids -- two of us were listening to That fugue.
Slurred a bit, Martin said.. y'know, I think we're.. hearing.. Bach's comprehension of ... ... infinity... (Can add nothing to that.)
(I can talk techno-shop too, re 'accelerators', bizarre involute Gotchas in lectronic circuits - with as much economy of the superfluous as you're describing. But I don't call that 'speech' or human communication - it's really just filling-in a logic table for someone else to see: an ELSE or an IF THEN which one has too glibly passed over..)
Hope this adds something to the mix; it would be Dull City if everyone talked like Accountants. If something is actually There, and it takes some mental 'associations?' to put it out / to get to it.. some will try sometimes; others, never. Most wrote to find out what they Knew, not 'knew'. (We live in an in-between world there, too ;-)
*Experimentation* is a concept that appiles to all forms of 'communication' TOO; not just to making better Tazers or SAM missiles. Or fixing fucking IE. (We've already had Studs T's clarification of how that meaning differs from 'communications' - No?)
Lastly: whenever anyone means to publish anything for Real - doing so without a good editor [person! !-Vi] is really Dumb.
Cheers, I
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Post #222,420
9/2/05 7:10:21 AM
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Thanks
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Post #222,406
9/2/05 1:45:08 AM
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It depends on what you're trying to achieve.
If your goal is to impress with your m4d l33t l1ng0 sk1llz, then you're doing fine. If, on the other hand, you want to actually communicate, then you're faced with a choice: either accept that your posting style causes a significant number of people to not receive your message, or change it.
The reasons for not getting your message are, I think, bifurcate. Firstly, there's those like me who skim the first couple of lines, go "ah, fuck this", and just skip the whole thing. Then there's those who actually read all the way through and still don't get it.
You can write perfectly lucid and thoughtful prose; I have a couple of very gratefully received examples in my mailbox.
You seem to choose not to.
Peter [link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #222,413
9/2/05 6:06:03 AM
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I Am Not a Number
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. Of course too, a billion flies can't be wrong, so maybe I should -
It's best that you skip the posts that don't fit your requirements. There's probably nothing There. And if everyone finally agrees on The Standard format - all will be 'on the same page', indefinitely. Indeed, were everyone to take the same angle of view of a topic -and- how Properly to express that: convergence would be a natural. For that angle. No matter: Equilibrium would be achieved!
Like, say on the matter of 'exceptions' in programming languages? Yes, everyone seems to converge rapidly on the --> right answer; after all - it's all just Logic. Oh, actually - Not. (Only the person who does not Need to take such micro-dissections seriously, can appreciate certain hilarities. I guess you missed the fun in that, too.)
Sorry, but I'm not you (either). See, I enjoyed Ross's fulminations -- less so when about The South Shall Rise and other obv side-effects of personal things as were biting, at those times.
I deemed the excesses a fair price to pay - because several of his insights were sufficiently arcane as to illuminate some abstract matters - of interest to me; not to mention the real physics - as bonus. (Don't care whether a plebiscite here or anywhere would vote: 'yes, that was an Acceptable posting'.) Really: I Don't.
Ross is unusually adept at noticing patterns. Ya think.. maybe someone can 'teach' someone else, how to 'recognize patterns', maybe?
You may be right though. People do outgrow mere habits; organizations tend more towards the ingrown. There are now quite more special-interest groups a click away, than when our little band accreted. Hmmm - new Jewels may exist now, albeit buried within the much greater noise. Maybe I have less and less to 'say' that fits into nice linear convergence, as I'm not terribly interested in achieving consensus. Or in Authority which presumes that I 'should' be. (Must be that early 'military' experience.)
Things change: always a decent bet, that.
I'd have to take my Intellectual Propery with me, of course - hey I waded through some of that GPL legal; I see that it requires that I sign - so the GRR would have to raid the LRPD's cache. I'm not one to disobey Rulez.
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Post #222,434
9/2/05 9:28:00 AM
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Ashton's a playwright.
If you read his prose aloud, and know where to put the inflections (he's usually pretty good about indicating that), then he comes through more clearly. If you read him as written text, like an American newspaper article, you'll misunderstand almost every time. Half the fun of a post by Ash is coming across new words; another half is drawing a mental 4-D sentence diagram; and the final half is seeing that pre-boomer insight come shining through. :-) Ashton challenges us, and that's a good thing. I'll bet he's read quite a bit of [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein|Wittgenstein]. Now he was an interesting case - he wrote in short, but extremely difficult to understand sentences (IMO, anyway). See, e.g., his [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractatus_Logico-Philosophicus|Tractatus Logico Philosophicus]: There are seven main propositions in the text. These are:
1. The world is everything that is the case. 2. What is the case (a fact) is the existence of atomic states of affairs. 3. A logical picture of facts is a thought. 4. A thought is a proposition with sense. 5. A proposition is a truth-function of elementary propositions. 6. The general form of a proposition is the general form of a truth function, which is: [image|http://en.wikipedia.org/math/01a3cf5f91211db95ef402b4bd20508b.png||||]. This is the general form of a proposition. 7. What we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence. Ashton's prose fits very well with what he wants to convey. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #222,464
9/2/05 12:07:59 PM
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And sometimes he's like this . . .
[image|http://www.aaxnet.com/ajg/PMP20.jpg||||] Actually, the most difficult thing about Ashtonese is time. Some of us read and post during short "windows of opportunity" between tasks. Many of his posts just take longer to fully understand than the time available and have to be abandoned.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #222,474
9/2/05 1:06:39 PM
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Exactly right, Andrew
And thanks for posting that.
When time permits, there is a sense of adventure in an Ashtonese (I'll now start using the "correct" term) post. But like reading an e-mail from my German friends, sometimes there is just not the time for the adventure. Unlike a German e-mail, however, an Ashton post has a temporal half-life (as do most posts here), so sometimes they expire before I have time to parse them. :-(
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #222,520
9/2/05 7:12:35 PM
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Damn, Scott --
...if you thought the mere Plame fiasco was 'HEAT' (?)
Have you any Idea what the penalty IS for outing a Ludvig Irregular? (Let alone what that might be a cover For?) YPB
That can be - Either Ludvig: the music One or, the screw-the-proles / the World Ain't Whatcha -didn't-Think-at-all?- It Was / One.
Watch the sky, Mr. Mole..
Hint: the son of an erstwile Sweetie is in MI-6, did his dissertation on he-who-must-not-be-Named. He is Very-Smart and - -
But while you still live.. er, thanks for good thoughts :-) (See.. it's outta my hands. Sorry :-/)
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Post #222,163
9/1/05 9:34:01 AM
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I still think this is over-reacting.
The whole political thing is jumping on this to help.
Back-stabbing-itis is already in progress. 20/20 hindsightedness is already in effect. The blame game is GAME-ON.
Yeah, It is bad. Maybe worse than I thought it was, but dammint... Its all the new people that have moved down to NO,LA that are making it a mess. Iffin it was just the Cajuns in the Bayou still the way it was... they'd have brushed off the dirt, swept up the debris and get busy living again.
Less than 40 years ago the primary means of a living in New Orleans was Fishing and Shipping (some would say cooking, but that is a different thang, local support). Now a days it is all about exploiting the Girls-Gone-Wild phenomena
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey [image|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg||||]
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Post #222,165
9/1/05 9:43:46 AM
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oil and petrochemical is the main deal, has been for a while
good old days aint coming back pojo, I hear now where armed citizens are firing on rescue choppers and armed gangs are terrorizing folks in the superdome, when I saw people heading there I thought, nope dont want to be caught in that mess. Blame game is well under way. Looting and social preasures in areas not directly affected by the storm is causing rising tensions. Fuckwit locally with wheel spinners pulled a gun to jump a gas line, lucky he wasnt in a shooting mood and had his ass run off. This will cause other folks to get edgy and mount up. The poor had no way of escaping and are holding it against the better off. The other poor elsewhere watch this and start getting angry also, gonna get worse before it gets better. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #222,179
9/1/05 11:07:38 AM
8/21/07 6:04:50 AM
|
Yep - one wonders if this will be the spark
to ignite nationwide race (actually class) riots.
Are the have nots pissed off enough yet? Maybe close.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #222,175
9/1/05 10:56:25 AM
|
Read this.
[link|http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1174992&forum_id=26|http://forums.corvet...74992&forum_id=26]
:(
apt-get install godlike-powers
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Post #222,219
9/1/05 1:04:05 PM
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thin blue line erased in New Orleans, lord of the flies time
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #222,233
9/1/05 2:04:50 PM
|
All the smart people...
...evacuated before the storm. Which means that those who are still in the city....
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Post #222,242
9/1/05 2:27:57 PM
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.. are destitute or invalids or hospitalized or ... :-(
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Post #222,252
9/1/05 3:15:29 PM
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Desperate times...
...bring out the best and worst in people. Guess I should be less judgemental. Each has their own story to tell. And their own level of frustration. I don't put that much creedance in the news reports, one way or the other. An individual is incompable of comprehending the swath of damage that's been done.
Wonders what the long term implications are in terms of both engineering feats and for a united citizenry. Too early to tell, but both seem to be taking a beating at the moment.
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Post #222,255
9/1/05 3:22:26 PM
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I'm wondering if this event might not set off some
soul searching in the US culture-at-large. Are the arson and looting going on in New Orleans going to cause some reflection on what it means to be an American?
'Course, that depends somewhat on whether your media actually do any reflection of their own.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #222,258
9/1/05 3:30:28 PM
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Not a chance
For every disaster or riot, there has been attendant looting. It's a lot like soccer games in Europe. It just takes more to get the mopes off their asses.
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Post #222,261
9/1/05 3:39:18 PM
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Didn't in Los Angeles
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #222,262
9/1/05 3:39:31 PM
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Third world country
Heard the comments here and there about the area having a feel of a third world country, and that gets me thinking of why we have an image of ourselves as somehow superior to the people in the 3rd world? Take away the wealth, which is what the hurricane has done, and are we any better than any other set of people?
Well, the right would say that it is our industriousness and determination that sets us apart - both of which are fed by our freedom and faith. The left would say that it is our binding compassion and ability to work together that makes us different - both of which are fed by our social contract and our respect for each other. Truth, always being fickle to pin down, probably taps into both.
As for whether the media has the ability of reflection, that is easy to answer - none at all ("...which By a curious coincidence..."). In order to digest massive events we have to melodramatize things - for example, the war in Iraq seems to have come down to a question of opinion on what one thinks of Cindy Sheehan.
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Post #222,265
9/1/05 4:16:13 PM
8/21/07 6:06:24 AM
|
Naaah
What you will be (and already are in some cases) seeing is right wing nut bloggers whining about how nobody is rushing to help us out even though we run around helping everyone else out. The entitlement thing.
What might cause a rethink is if sympathetic riots begin in other cities around the US.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #222,418
9/2/05 6:49:22 AM
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Whatever else this massive boondoggle is explained-away with
for some of us, it is a mere vetting of the idea that, very few Murican consumer-sheep have the foggiest idea of the complexity of a modern techno-besotted, centralized-Corporate-distribution of monopolized lines of goods. And Today: OF most of THE NECESSARY BASIC COMMODITIES, too. (Sure looks Good on spreadsheets with Bottom Lines, though. In fair weather.)
Much of fact and fiction re 'the Open Society (and its Enemies' \ufffd) fills the literature of the (first) War Century: but few I've met during half that century - knew how Anything worked, if they could even find the Manual in the packing about to be thrown away.
Well: Katrina is demonstrating How Easily It All Might Not Work. No ez-electricity: no water, pumps, refrigeration, battery charging, comm ...
(I see: at least a hundred PhDs out of the plethora of owl-entrail readings; maybe just in the second year?) I wonder which of these will connect to the declining competence level of the 'average consumer', in about all things having to do with animal survival. Or how the ability to *walk* a few miles, fits in with 'fitness'.
'Common Sense' Hah! - it's neither. Now more than ever?
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Post #222,247
9/1/05 2:56:49 PM
8/21/07 6:05:57 AM
|
Are the poor who lack the resources to move
[link|http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/30/email_attributed_to_.html|http://www.boingboin...tributed_to_.html]
The poorest 20% (you can argue with the number -- 10%? 18%? no one knows) of the city was left behind to drown. This was the plan. Forget the sanctimonious bullshit about the bullheaded people who wouldn't leave. The evacuation plan was strictly laissez-faire. It depended on privately owned vehicles, and on having ready cash to fund an evacuation. The planners knew full well that the poor, who in new orleans are overwhelmingly black, wouldn't be able to get out. The resources -- meaning, the political will -- weren't there to get them out.
White per capita income in Orleans parish, 2000 census: $31,971. Black per capita: $11,332. Median *household* income in B.W. Cooper (Calliope) Housing Projects, 2000: $13,263.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #222,249
9/1/05 3:05:28 PM
|
no resources or will to evacuate and the last time people
went to the superdome it was also a disaster. If you were in new orleans, without a car or cash for a bus out of town you were abandoned by the government you pay to keep you safe. thanx,. bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #222,251
9/1/05 3:09:44 PM
8/21/07 6:06:03 AM
|
Yep - another article
[link|http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050901/2005-09-01T021157Z_01_MOL181874_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-BT-WEATHER-KATRINA-POVERTY-DC.html|http://reuters.myway...A-POVERTY-DC.html]
The legalization of gambling in Biloxi created an economic boom in the early 1990s and the city developed a reputation as a place where a person could get a decent-paying job in the casino or hospitality business.
But not everyone prospered. In the devastated streets and atop the rubble piles where their homes stood before Katrina blew through, a bitter refrain is increasingly heard. Poor and low-income residents complain that they have borne the brunt of the hurricane's wrath.
"Many people didn't have the financial means to get out," said Alan LeBreton, 41, an apartment superintendent who lived on Biloxi's seaside road, now in ruins. "That's a crime and people are angry about it."
Many of the town's well-off heeded authorities' warnings to flee north, joining thousands of others who traveled from the Gulf Coast into northern Mississippi and Alabama, Georgia and other nearby states.
Hotels along the interstates and other main roads were packed with these temporary refugees. Gas stations and convenience stores -- at least those that were open -- sold out of water, ice and other supplies within hours.
But others could not afford to join them, either because they didn't own a car or couldn't raise funds for even the cheapest motel.
"No way we could do that," said Willie Rhetta, a bus driver, who remained in his home to await Katrina.
Resentment at being left behind in the path of one of the fiercest hurricanes on record may have contributed to some of the looting that occurred in Biloxi and other coastal communities.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #222,257
9/1/05 3:27:00 PM
|
Re: Are the poor who lack the resources to move
[link|http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/30/email_attributed_to_.html|http://www.boingboin...tributed_to_.html] The poorest 20% (you can argue with the number -- 10%? 18%? no one knows) of the city was left behind to drown. This was the plan. Forget the sanctimonious bullshit about the bullheaded people who wouldn't leave. The evacuation plan was strictly laissez-faire. It depended on privately owned vehicles, and on having ready cash to fund an evacuation. The planners knew full well that the poor, who in new orleans are overwhelmingly black, wouldn't be able to get out. The resources -- meaning, the political will -- weren't there to get them out. God.... that sounds like what happened on the Titanic... No wonder people are so mad. Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #223,081
9/6/05 9:35:31 AM
|
On the Titanic it was women and children first
On the Titanic, while third class passengers fared worse than first and second class, third class women and children fared better than first class men did (some [link|http://www.anesi.com/titanic.htm|Titanic stats].
Giovanni
Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for. You don't need George Bush for that.
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Post #223,160
9/6/05 2:55:37 PM
|
True, and that makes it worse yet
The fact that the third class women and children didn't get out of New Orleans and other cities before the first class men makes this disaster actually worse than the Titanic in terms of taking care of the classes.
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #223,207
9/6/05 5:20:27 PM
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Astute observation, O feathered One.
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Post #223,512
9/7/05 6:06:21 PM
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Gives you pause don't it?
When it comes to life and death, we seem to value money a lot more (and women a lot less) than we did before WWI...
Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for. You don't need George Bush for that.
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Post #222,250
9/1/05 3:06:25 PM
9/1/05 4:13:34 PM
|
Hey there, driver man...
Pray, pray that this is the worst natural disaster (in the US) that you will see in your life. Having spent a year riding my bike near University of New Orleans and the beautiful areas surrounding (which is now gone for all practical purposes), having played guitar in bars and coffee houses throughout the town, having stayed up many late nights in the bars near Tulane and all areas uptown. Having ridden the streetcars down St Charles to the Quarter, etc... I am in mourning right now. They will politicize this for all it's worth, but fuck them. San Francisco was destroyed in '03 and guess how many people live there now. WHEN it is destroyed again (for all practical purposes) will you have the same opinion? What about all the dipshits in the mid-west who built their houses too close to the Mississippi in '93? Or all the asswipes on the coasts everywhere...
I suppose that the other gazelles watching on as the cheetah chews away at their neighbor find some type of rationale for "why he deserved it". It must be human, er umm, animal nature. They didn't just screw up in New Orleans (or Biloxi or Mobile), most cities are near water. 10,000 years ago, your home was under a big old piece of ice. There were marine fossils outside of my home in Ohio when I was growing up.
When they finally get around to counting the bodies (not the ones that are floating around in coffins already), I think you will find that we are talking 10's of thousands dead. They haven't mentioned any areas in Louisiana east or south of New Orleans... In other words, screw the politics... a little compassion would be appreciated - at least by me.
Edit - I just found this good bit of news about [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/31/AR2005083100377.html|Grand Isle]
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
Edited by danreck
Sept. 1, 2005, 04:13:34 PM EDT
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Post #222,259
9/1/05 3:30:34 PM
|
Believe me, you have my compassion
Although I personally wouldn't live near water (for fears that are my own), I do understand that these people lived here, and this was their home, their cities, their livelihoods.... and my heart breaks and aches for their sorrow and misery.
It's just such a shame that instead of looting and fighting, they aren't ALL pulling together as a whole community to help one another... but then again, I do understand the panicked atmosphere... I understand their desperations... their will to survive at all costs... there was shooting on the deck of the Titanic, after all...
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,267
9/1/05 4:18:20 PM
|
What I can't understand...
Is why the National Guard and NOPD and all the journalist aren't carrying food and fricking water after 2 and a half days... They can send hundreds of buses... Couldn't they have "filled them up" on their way in?
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #222,270
9/1/05 4:23:52 PM
|
It's only the poor.
It's not like they're human.
apt-get install godlike-powers
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Post #222,272
9/1/05 4:27:19 PM
8/21/07 6:06:34 AM
|
The National Guard is committed to helping
just as soon as they get home from Iraq
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #222,282
9/1/05 5:02:46 PM
|
Re: The National Guard is committed to helping
As much as enjoy bashing the current regime, 50-60% of the national guard in the affected states is still in those states and have been/are being mobilized as well as NG from other states.
-- Chris Altmann
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Post #222,284
9/1/05 5:04:21 PM
|
21k NG troops allocated now by the feds (they pay em)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #222,287
9/1/05 5:17:29 PM
|
Wow, really?
So they've only sent just less than half the National Guard to Iraq. Gosh, it's a good thing nothing else bad is going to happen that might require defending some homeland.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #222,338
9/1/05 6:57:51 PM
|
The bigger problem might be the equipment anyways
The troops might rotate back to the states but I bet the equipment stays there.
-- Chris Altmann
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Post #222,345
9/1/05 7:20:12 PM
9/1/05 7:20:48 PM
|
Heard in passing on NPR - yep.
And I should probably add that the funds to purchase them replacement equipment has been promised, but never delivered.
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Post #222,274
9/1/05 4:31:53 PM
|
My opinion
Maybe they thought the Red Cross and Salvation Army were doing that, but I think all agencies are swamped.
Maybe they had to get there so fast there wasn't time to supply those things when they left.
At any rate, I hope the food/water arrives soon, from some source, a hundred sources, anything. Those people are desperate.
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,277
9/1/05 4:44:52 PM
|
That requires planning and forethought
Since, as it appears from many of the links that have been posted here already, the planning and forethought dep't. for this sort of thing having been gutted, nobody's thinking of this sort of thing.
Hurricanes and other natural disasters can't be used to stampede the masses, so they've been disincentivized by the current administration.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #222,297
9/1/05 5:30:59 PM
|
I think this is a good time
to point out that when I lived in New Orleans 15 years ago, all the politicians were campaigning on "fixing the levees". It's not like it wasn't known... Check out this site [link|http://www.publichealth.hurricane.lsu.edu/|http://www.publichea...urricane.lsu.edu/] to see how excruciatingly accurate the detail is in the models that they have... The schools, the poor, potholes, etc. and any issue that could be used to buy votes seemed to always take precedence over "fixing the levees". If you believe that the reason this huricane response was bad was because of the "current administration", I think you are being rather simplistic and trying to politicize this tragedy. Why?
While I don't like the "current administration" I think you are referring to, I really don't like the former or current administrations that have run Louisana politics (and especially New Orleans)for the past few centuries. Napoleonic law and numerous other smokescreens, deals, Huey P. Long, etc... have kept Louisana in the backwoods of America for many years. The Big Easy has been viewed as "party central" by the rest of the country for most of the last century instead of a cultural music mecca and the largest and most vital port city in the US. Here in lies the rub. Everyone talked about "the worst case scenario" of a major hurricane on New Orleans. No one really prepared for it. It was just a political football. "If the red team were in charge, then we could stop hurricanes" and other bullshit hyperbole.
Jake, I think we are fighting against our human nature, not politics. It doesn't take FEMA or the National Guard or any organization with a collective IQ above 70 to determine that people who are stranded in a dome or on a roof in 95 degree heat with no food or fresh water just might be thirsty when you got there... Does the President of the United States have to tell his military officers that "they might be thirsty, bring water"? How about the Red Cross? I've been giving money to these people for years thinking they sort of knew how to handle these types of things... Maybe they weren't prepared for the scale? Maybe they thought New Orleans was "spared" and sent all the stuff to Biloxi and Mobile and Gulf Shores and all the other places (some former) first... I don't know, I'm rambling...
If anyone is going to New Orleans, "please take some water with you and maybe a few bottles of Jack Daniels for once they are hydrated".
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #222,298
9/1/05 5:35:46 PM
|
I'll tell my cousin-in-law that
He's going with some friends and other people as part of an Emergency Response Team sent from Texas. They are going by boat.
He's part of the Volunteer Fire Dept there as well as has helped out with other Emergency scenarios.
I hope he can help, him and the whole team.
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,301
9/1/05 5:44:26 PM
|
Re: I'll tell my cousin-in-law that
I'll say hi to him personally, if I get a chance. I'm trying to volunteer with the Red Cross. Last night they said to send money, "they need heavy equipment, ships and cranes, not hands". I asked them if they changed their mind... They took my information and said to stand by.
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #222,302
9/1/05 5:46:05 PM
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I hope you get to help
It seems to mean a lot to you.
His name is Rankin Ramsey.
Brenda
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
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Post #222,320
9/1/05 6:18:50 PM
9/1/05 6:33:27 PM
|
Supplies and volunteers
Hey Danreck,
I just heard on the news that there are supplies being all packed up to ship to New Orleans, medical supplies, food, water, etc. Looks like they are mobilizing things now, maybe they just needed a little time to get it all organized.
Also, in addition to my cousin-in-law Rankin Ramsey, who is going there with a Fire/Rescue crew on a boat from Texas, I also learned that my cousin-in-law Joesph Peck is being deployed to New Orlean's. He's in the military police National Guard. He is to keep people from looting.
I'm amazed about my family stepping up like this, I didn't know these things about these particular people.
Brenda
Edit: I had meant to branch this off to the Water Cooler but I goofed. :( Sorry.
"Excel is to math what a Microwave Oven is to cooking!"
Edited by Nightowl
Sept. 1, 2005, 06:33:27 PM EDT
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Post #222,328
9/1/05 6:31:45 PM
8/21/07 6:07:46 AM
|
Why don't you an mmoffit fly over and drop water bottles?
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #223,197
9/6/05 4:37:23 PM
|
I've got oil pressure problems at the moment. :0(
bcnu, Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #222,343
9/1/05 7:17:16 PM
9/1/05 7:27:09 PM
|
I'm not talking about the fact that the levees failed
I'm talking about the fact that the rescue efforts post failure seem to be so badly badly organised... and that seems to be related to the fact that the usual coordinating agency (FEMA) has largely been gutted of its mandate, funding, and people by the current US administration.
Edit: I gotta stop being so fast on that button.
Anyway, the levees failing leaves plenty of blame to go around... and it's not particularly any better up here. It's like that guy from Holland said "over there they designed to defend against the 100 year event, but we've designed for the 10,000 year event" when he was speaking about their dike system vs. the one around New Orleans. It's a problem of vision, and it seems pretty widespread to NA... but the problem I'm talking about is specific to the aftermath and how well it's been organised. To be honest, and having seen both the CBC and the BBC version as well as the CNN version, to the outsider it looks like the poor people of the Gulf Coast and (even moreso) of New Orleans were left to literally twist in the wind.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by jake123
Sept. 1, 2005, 07:27:09 PM EDT
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