Another school shooting?

Post #199,899 by warmachine 3/22/05 4:36:52 AM Reply	Another school shooting? Ummm... [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4370617.stm\|http://news.bbc.co.u...ricas/4370617.stm] How do teenagers get hold of guns in the US? Matthew Greet But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie. - Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
Post #199,903 by Another Scott 3/22/05 7:42:42 AM Reply	The grandfather was a policeman. [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A54768-2005Mar21?language=printer\|Washington Post]. :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #199,932 by drewk 3/22/05 12:32:43 PM Reply	Generally by the handgrips or stock === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #200,006 by boxley 3/22/05 7:00:28 PM Reply	birthday presents when they are 8 years old? dont understand the question thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,043 by warmachine 3/23/05 2:33:32 AM Reply	Aren't guns locked up so kiddies can't get them? Matthew Greet But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie. - Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
Post #200,044 by pwhysall 3/23/05 2:52:45 AM Reply	Ah, but guns don't kill people, remember. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #200,048 by CRConrad 3/23/05 6:43:53 AM Reply	But They ARE consistent: They have LOTS of people locked up.
Post #200,052 by pwhysall 3/23/05 7:09:20 AM Reply	But it's The Land Of The Free(TM)(R)! Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #200,091 by CRConrad 3/23/05 9:29:09 AM Reply	Yah, well, I'll bet the locked-up ones don't Own much land..
Post #200,051 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 7:09:07 AM 3/23/05 8:26:14 AM Reply	Why should the guns have been locked? He's not a "kiddie". He was 16. His grandfather didn't suspect anything. .22 are common. Shot grandfather with .22 then stole police revolver. So if revolver is locked up, all he needed to do was steal key first. Since this looks like a planned event, what's to prevent 16yo from stabbing grandfather to get key if guns are locked. Ya lock up the guns to prevent young kids from accidentally shooting themselves. WOn't stop a older teen or another adult for gaining access to them. Also, put this enormity of the event into perspective. Total population of the city is ~5000. That's .2% of the population. In the TC metro that would be the same as killing 6000 or 38500 in NYC. Even OBL didn't hit that rate. Give the anti gun crap a break. Pray for/tink about/feel for the entire community involved. Yeah, it's "local" (~200mi north), and no, I don't know anyone involved. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Edited by jbrabeck March 23, 2005, 08:26:14 AM EST Expand All History
Post #200,059 by boxley 3/23/05 7:46:13 AM Reply	met folks from that rez, small community, sux All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,060 by warmachine 3/23/05 7:49:12 AM Reply	I'll give ya that one You have to start trusting 16 year olds with dangerous devices and being weird and anti-social isn't enough to deny access. Matthew Greet But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig, cow after cow, village after village, army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie and we must be merciful to those who lie. - Colonol Kurtz, Apocalypse Now.
Post #200,058 by boxley 3/23/05 7:43:51 AM Reply	what good is a gun if you cant get to them? still dont understand the question, a gun, like an axe is a tool. You are not suppose to use axes for chopping people to death so they are left where they are handy. A gun is not supposed to shoot people down indiscriminately so they also are left where they are handy. This lad, like the bonkers englishman with the axe broke the rules of a civil society. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,076 by drewk 3/23/05 8:32:53 AM Reply	Who cares? He was just a redskin At least judging by the complete lack of wall-to-wall coverage that was given to Columbine, that's what the media expect us to be thinking. Or is it just that they don't have that great helicopter footage of the kids being led out? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #200,078 by Another Scott 3/23/05 8:34:51 AM Reply	Without video, TV doesn't care. With video, it's everywhere.
Post #200,237 by Nightowl 3/23/05 9:07:04 PM Reply	Here's the real reason for less coverage The Reservation is limiting it. [link\|http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/breaking_news/11205081.htm\|http://www.dfw.com/m...news/11205081.htm] Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,082 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 8:40:55 AM Reply	We have the coverage here One local station has a team of 15 lead by the most respected anchor. Each station has a team on site. No lack of coverage. Minnesota is just "fly over" country. Red Lake is one of two Federal reservations. Means that the state does not have any juristiction. That's why the FBI is leading the investigation. And I take exception to your subject line. The state attorney general went so far as to say that those who point to this and say it's a Native American problem are wrong, it's not a Native American problem, it's an American problem. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,123 by drewk 3/23/05 12:58:31 PM Reply	Did you really not get the sarcasm? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #200,129 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 1:11:10 PM Reply	No, I got it It's just that that is the sentiment that some are expressing, and that irritates me. Wife and step daughters have some "Injun" blood. So do one of my brother's kids (he married an "Injun"). I rail against all (most?) stereotyping. I got the sarcasm, just objected to it in the subject line. /rant A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,136 by Nightowl 3/23/05 1:47:01 PM Reply	Ditto here I've seen a lot of coverage on it on local networks here, just haven't gotten to my local newspaper yet. I'm blown away by the fact that he told many people he planned to do this and no one listened or believed him. Makes me sad that no one at this school apparently learned anything from Columbine. And I agree Jrabeck, it's not an Indian thing, it's an American thing. It had just died down for a little while, I guess, cause there hadn't been too many copycat incidents lately. However, there were a few people who learned from Columbine, because several School incidents were prevented in St. Louis and the surrounding areas because students told people when someone talked about planning something. Oh that everyone could learn that. Brenda Nightowl >8# "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,138 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 1:58:54 PM 3/23/05 2:10:58 PM Reply	Where? From the StarTribune [link\|http://www.startribune.com/stories/156/5308100.html\|Jeff Weise: A mystery in a life full of hardship] A couple of his friends had said he was suicidal, she said. They quoted him as saying once, "That would be cool if I shot up the school." ... Tribal police and the FBI haven't said that Weise was high on their radar prior to Monday Unless your local news has other sources, that wouldn't lead me to consider him dangerous, a threat. I know many kids who'd like to "kill" someone but never act on it. Now if there is evidence that he had exhibited terroristic behavour (made threats, etc) over a period of time, and other knew about it, then he should have been confronted. Also here is the closest local paper [link\|http://www.bemidjipioneer.com/\|The Bemidji Pioneer] (You'll need to create an account to read articles.) A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Edited by jbrabeck March 23, 2005, 02:10:58 PM EST Expand All History
Post #200,157 by Nightowl 3/23/05 3:22:43 PM Reply	All I know is what I heard Different news casts said that he had commented more than once that he planned to come and shoot up the school. As much as I want to research this incident, (and have wanted to since it happened), I haven't had time, (been swamped lately), and now I think I have bronchitis, (called the doctor today and got an antibiotic), so I don't feel up to much searching online. I'm barely up to reading in here. But believe me, I intend to research it more as soon as I feel better. I know better than to believe what the news says without researching it, I just commented that was what I heard. Any links that don't require another account would be appreciated on this story. Brenda Nightowl >8# "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,162 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 3:42:48 PM Reply	Use the links in previous post For Strib iwethey/iwethey should get you in (if not post here and I'll fix it) For Bemidji, you'll have to create an account. They want email address for account id. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,163 by Nightowl 3/23/05 3:56:13 PM Reply	I can read the Tribune I can't get to the other one and I can't do something like make an account without checking with John. That aside, here is what I got from the article: Article said: He often wore "a big old black trench coat," she said, and drew pictures of skeletons. "He talked about death all the time." << Most schools I know of (or at least read about) banned wearing black trench coats, because they were symbolic of the Columbine Shooters. I'm really surprised that he was allowed to wear this in school and that no one put that together. That wouldn't stand on it's own, but combined with the comments and drawings, it might hold more weight. Article quoted:>>A couple of his friends had said he was suicidal, she said. They quoted him as saying once, "That would be cool if I shot up the school." The friends dismissed it as talk, Hegstrom said.<< I wouldn't have. If I saw the trench coat, and the shoes with the red laces, (which were also symbolic of the Columbine shooters)and heard that even once, I would have told a teacher if I were a student. Article said:>>But Willy May, 18, who knew Weise from school, said people shouldn't have been surprised. "He fits the profile of a Columbine shooter, man," he said. May said Weise always wore combat boots "with red shoelaces," similar to those of the shooters at Columbine High School. He said that Weise "always had stacks of drawings, disturbed drawings." Some, he said, would show people with bullets going through their skulls. May also said that "a while back," Weise "got blamed" for phoning in bomb threats at the school. "I'm not sure if it was him or not, but he got blamed," May said.<< Now this is a kid who saw it all, he saw what I would have seen. I just wish he had said something about it. People can say there were no clues, no indications this would happen or that this kid was serious, but I see a lot of clues and indications. My guess is that they just chose not to look or notice. Or pretended it wasn't serious. Bet they're wishing otherwise now. Brenda Nightowl >8# "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,170 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 4:56:07 PM Reply	Hindsight Black trenchcoat == Goth. Guy at my church wears one. Drawing skeletons == Artistic, little weird. My daughter and step daughter have drawn skeletons. Red shoe laces - Maybe. Mays comments - hindsight. If Jeff "Fit the profile", why didn't he say anything. Never thought of it until afterwards (imo) Suicidal - fits lots of teens, and adults. Remember this is kids saying, not professionals. Shoot up the school - Saying it once (last year and it was investigated, from previous articles, and deemed without threat) If you read all the articles, you'll notice that he was a loner. No one could tell you about him. None of the adults knew him. The TOWN's population is only 1800. Reservation population around 5000. For noone to know him he kept himself out of trouble. He was different, therefore teased, picked on, and blamed for everything. The news media has pointed out the similiarities. Until then, most people never even thought of it. Most assume, correctly, it won't happen here. You can't lock up, put into therapy, analyze everyone who is different, wears trenchcoats, draws "disturbing" pictures, etc. The most telling, was the statement from FBI and RL police "He wasn't on our radar", iow he wasn't deemed a threat. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,174 by Nightowl 3/23/05 5:11:34 PM Reply	Re: Hindsight Black trenchcoat == Goth. Guy at my church wears one. Man, I'd be worried about him if it were me. Drawing skeletons == Artistic, little weird. My daughter and step daughter have drawn skeletons. The skeletons didn't bug me as much as the skulls pierced by bullets. Red shoe laces - Maybe. For anyone who studied the Columbine Shooting (of which I am one of), it was a trademark of the shooters to wear combat boots with red laces. Mays comments - hindsight. If Jeff "Fit the profile", why didn't he say anything. Never thought of it until afterwards (imo) Maybe so. Maybe he saw it ahead of time and didn't want to say anything. We won't know until/unless he says more. Suicidal - fits lots of teens, and adults. Remember this is kids saying, not professionals. True, but any time I hear anyone I know or associate with or around me, is suicidal, I TELL someone. Case in point, I did it with our former suicidal member. Even if they had told people he was talking about suicide or being suicidal, he might have received some help that might have prevented this tragedy. Maybe, maybe not, hard to predict something like that. Shoot up the school - Saying it once (last year and it was investigated, from previous articles, and deemed without threat) I was not aware it had been investigated, but my question would be how and why was it deemed without threat? Just because he said so??? I think there should be something in between suspension and jail that would deal with these issues. We talked about this once before on here, there is simply nothing in place to handle this when it comes up that works. If you read all the articles, you'll notice that he was a loner. No one could tell you about him. None of the adults knew him. The TOWN's population is only 1800. Reservation population around 5000. For noone to know him he kept himself out of trouble. As soon as I feel more like searching I will hunt up a lot more on it, I promise. But scanning hundreds of links trying to pick out the best ones to read isn't something I can handle right now... (sadly enough, because I have too much to do to be sick, but I don't feel like doing much of anything. Sigh. ) He was different, therefore teased, picked on, and blamed for everything. And so were the Columbine Shooters. The news media has pointed out the similiarities. Until then, most people never even thought of it. Most assume, correctly, it won't happen here. You can't lock up, put into therapy, analyze everyone who is different, wears trenchcoats, draws "disturbing" pictures, etc. That's why I said there should be something in the middle, some way to handle these kids and the threats to schools and other students. Brenda Nightowl >8# "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,180 by pwhysall 3/23/05 5:25:25 PM Reply	I wear size 14 steelies... ...with black boot laces. I have a long dark coat. I have written dark, violent fiction, and have a penchant for death metal and grinding industrial music. And you know what? I never shot up a school, kicked a kitten, or was even rude to the teachers. Appearances mean little. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #200,184 by Nightowl 3/23/05 5:38:12 PM Reply	Appearances Appearances mean little. They have to be taken in context, Peter. It isn't as simple as everyone who dresses like this echoes this and that, it's watching how and when it happens. If this student suddenly started dressing in the black coat, or suddenly wore the shoelaces. If he wears nothing BUT the trench coat and shoes with red laces, if he suddenly exhibited odd behavior. You have to look at the circumstances, (i.e. a dtudent in a school setting), and the nature of the changes (i.e. when did he start doing this, after he talked about shooting up the school? Right after Columbine? etc. etc. etc.). I'm not dumb enough to believe everything is as black and white as if this person dresses like this or does this, he's bound to do this... it has to have more factors than just that. Brenda Nightowl >8# "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,188 by pwhysall 3/23/05 5:50:56 PM Reply	Re: Appearances Appearances mean little. They have to be taken in context, Peter. It isn't as simple as everyone who dresses like this echoes this and that, it's watching how and when it happens. If this student suddenly started dressing in the black coat, or suddenly wore the shoelaces. If he wears nothing BUT the trench coat and shoes with red laces, if he suddenly exhibited odd behavior. Gosh, really? Thanks for patronising me. I'd never have guessed that things like that have to be taken in context. Brenda, I live in my boots - they're practically sentient. I wear my long coat EVERY DAY. I wore it (well, one like it) EVERY DAY when I was at college and University. And red laces? Give me strength. Stop watching the kids and start talking to them. <-- clue, quite important[0] You have to look at the circumstances, (i.e. a dtudent in a school setting), and the nature of the changes (i.e. when did he start doing this, after he talked about shooting up the school? Right after Columbine? etc. etc. etc.). I imagine that pretty much every even slightly disaffected kid in America (and across the Western world, come to that) pondered gunning up their classmates, post-Columbine. Some weren't smart enough to keep their mouths shut. But tonight, on Mastermind, Brenda's chosen specialised subject will be The Bleeding Obvious. </Fawlty> I'm not dumb enough to believe everything is as black and white as if this person dresses like this or does this, he's bound to do this... it has to have more factors than just that. Bingo! You scored two points and no passes. [0]quite important in the same way that the Sun is quite hot. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #200,191 by Nightowl 3/23/05 5:58:56 PM Reply	Whatever I wasn't trying to patronize you.. I don't even hardly know what the word means. If I offended you, I'm sorry. I was stating things I've studied, and I've been studying about school shootings ever since slightly before Columbine. I'm not up for this today, I have to go lie down. But I wasn't trying to patronize you, whatever that is. I'll deal with anything else when I feel better. Brenda Nightowl >8# "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,193 by ben_tilly 3/23/05 6:01:02 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #200192 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=200192\|ICLRPD] I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #200,226 by Nightowl 3/23/05 8:30:33 PM Reply	Here's some more links [link\|http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_082180105.html\|http://wcco.com/tops...ry_082180105.html] One says he wasn't a loner after all [link\|http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_082180105.html\|http://wcco.com/tops...ry_082180105.html] One even points to his Blog [link\|http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/twincities/news/special_packages/red_lake/\|http://www.contracos...ackages/red_lake/] (I can't get into to read without making an account), that they say describes a lot of this. He blogged all this online and no one told anyone? Man... You're right, Jrabeck, it all comes out in hindsight. Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,197 by boxley 3/23/05 6:25:37 PM Reply	look at the suicide rates of native teens vs others as well as the rates of violence in same, they may or may not have taken it in the same light as whitebread middleclass kids. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,341 by bionerd 3/24/05 3:54:46 PM Reply	Darn right it's an American problem And the media is depraved in their attempts to turn this into something else. Didnt anybody know this kid? As a parent or guardian, it is your job to talk to your kid. It's your job to know what your kid is doing and if s/he strays off the path of "normalcy", it's your job to notice this and get your kid some help. This boy was a walking cry for help and nobody noticed. Nobody is watching the kids. It's a recipe for disaster.
Post #200,348 by ben_tilly 3/24/05 4:26:45 PM Reply	Strays OFF the path of normalcy? I hope that my son never strays ONTO the path of normalcy! I expect much more out of him than, "He was normal." Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #200,352 by jbrabeck 3/24/05 4:30:18 PM Reply	How old are your kids? As they get older, they get more creative in their methods to hide information. Reading articles, his aunt (iirc) saw him in that morning, talked to him, seemed "normal". Most parents won't know where/how to look on the internet to find their kid's blogs. I wouldn't know where to look/how to find any of my daughters' blogs. If they had any. I've had different people (their peers) tell me various things about my daughters (smoking, pot, sex, truancy). I've confronted them. They deny. Without proof, can't really do anything but keep eyes open and watch. You learn to read what they're saying by what is missing. This kid had lived in the cities. Dad committed suicide. Mom was paralyzed. He was sent to live on reservation with relatives. Big town kid living in a small town with "nothing to do". Hadn't lived there long enough for the adults to get to know him. And his relatives? Who knows. If you suddenly acquired a 15 y/o living in with you, how long would it take before you'd recognize "questionable behaviour"? Especially if it was being actively hidden? He was getting help, was on anti-depressants, was in therapy. But something "happened" and he went wild. It's getting too common. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,354 by Nightowl 3/24/05 4:35:30 PM Reply	You said it It's getting too common. And that there, is the bottom line. It's starting to be like an everyday occurrence, like something that has to just be... and that's the saddest part, that we've delegated school shootings in our society to equate with a fact of life, like it's a fact of life that murders happen, robberies happen, now it's a fact of life that teenagers or even younger kids, may regularly attempt to shoot one another at school. I just wish something could be done to "find" these kids and help them before it's too late, but of course there is no tried and true method other than getting them to talk to you, and not all of them will talk, either, even if you try. Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,357 by jake123 3/24/05 4:45:41 PM Reply	There's a much simpler solution Make sure it's very hard if not impossible for them to get guns. Oh yeah, that's not an option in your neck of the woods. A while back andread was poking fun at Peter, citing someone who attacked and killed someone else with an axe in the UK. He just snapped, and started chopping this guy up. Various people saw him, told him to stop, and he ignored them while he set about decapitating his victim. However, here's the flip side: let's say he'd had a semiautomatic assault rifle with a full clip (IIRC, 40 rounds or so). Well, he could have shot the guy three or four times in as many seconds. At that point, he's free to turn said weapon on someone else. Even assuming he's a crappy shot, he's easily able to kill eight people and trash their bodies in the time it took him to take care of one. THAT is the point of having effective gun control. How many people would this kid have killed if all he'd been able to lay his hands on was a knife or an axe or some such? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #200,360 by Nightowl 3/24/05 5:00:10 PM Reply	Re: There's a much simpler solution Make sure it's very hard if not impossible for them to get guns. Oh yeah, that's not an option in your neck of the woods. Not yet, anyway. They are working on a smart gun that will respond only to the owner, but it isn't available yet. I don't agree with the right to carry though, it isn't something I advocate because it can't be monitored very well. I agree though, that is one of the keys. Problem we have here, is we don't know how he overpowered his grandad and got the gun, Did he shoot him before overpowering him, or shoot him after he knocked him out and stole the gun cabinet key... provided the gun was locked up. We may never know that. If people are determined to get their hands on a gun, they usually manage to find a way, sadly enough. Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,363 by jake123 3/24/05 5:10:21 PM Reply	Good lord It doesn't matter how he overpowered his grandfather. If there'd been no guns there in the first place, he'd have been severely restricted in the amount of damage he could do. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #200,364 by Nightowl 3/24/05 5:14:15 PM Reply	How could that have been accomplished When his grandfather was a policeman? Where else would he keep his gun? I'm a little confused, I mean I get it if it's an ordinary citizen, but police are supposed to have guns, right? Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,370 by jake123 3/24/05 5:31:45 PM Reply	Police are supposed to have guns when they're working. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #200,373 by Nightowl 3/24/05 5:34:10 PM Reply	So tell me... Where do they put them then, when off duty? Usually locked up at home. I never heard of a station allowing you to lock up your weapon as you leave. Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,378 by jake123 3/24/05 5:52:12 PM Reply	Yeah, but you live in the US it really is different there from almost anywhere else... up here, if a cop is carrying off duty, they can get arrested. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #200,381 by Nightowl 3/24/05 6:02:49 PM Reply	Does carrying including storing? Are you saying where you are they are allowed to leave the guns at work? Not a bad idea, but unfortunately then off duty police here would be vulnerable to people gunning for them. But I agree, we need a better solution. Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,383 by jake123 3/24/05 6:13:20 PM Reply	Not a lot of people gunning in a culture that isn't awash in firearms, like mine. If you have a gun, you have to have a license. You also have to store them in a safe in your house, and carrying is extremely limited, usually to a locked box in the trunk of your car on a route directly between your house and a duly registered range, or (in the case of a policeman) between their home and work. Most of the time, they're left at work. Of course, this isn't foolproof. However, looking at the rates of gun deaths, both accidental and intentional, in our two countries is pretty instructive, when you remember that getting a gun is quite difficult almost everywhere in Canada. For example, including the time I spent in cadets, I've seen maybe a few dozen guns in my entire life, and have handled three or four. Not including guns on policemen and armoured car security, I've seen exactly one handgun "in the flesh" as it were. Even if I wanted to shoot somebody, it would be pretty difficult for me to get a gun to do it here. I'd have to go to upper NY state and try to sneak one over the border. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #200,386 by Nightowl 3/24/05 6:27:06 PM Reply	Thanks for explaining that I don't think that's ever been an option here. Even when my ex was a security guard, learning to shoot, he had to bring the gun back to the house. Of course it had to be locked in a lockbox, and it even had a trigger guard, but that doesn't stop someone who's determined. Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,403 by boxley 3/24/05 8:42:25 PM Reply	go down to verdun and get one in the 70's could buy an ak47 full auto there for 500 canadian. The same year monteal was the armed robbery capital of the world. Im sure the "hells" donthave licenses for their firearms. I know places In toronto, Hamilton Winnepeg and Vancouver where you still can get guns. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,408 by jake123 3/24/05 9:05:26 PM Reply	Hey box, I've not been in Mtl for over two years now and it's true that if I really wanted to get one, I could get a gun here in Kingston. It still wouldn't be easy, and it would be quite expensive. Further, the likelihood of finding a gun in a random house is vanishingly small here, and extremely rare even in Verdun. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #200,903 by Steven A S 3/28/05 1:43:03 PM Reply	In the military at least in the Air Force, the Security Forces folks (police in the air force) keep their weapons locked in an armory when they're not actively on patrol. In fact, they urge anybody living on base to put their weapons in the armory as well (airmen in the dorms aren't given a choice, they have to) ~~~)-Steven---- "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..." General George S. Patton
Post #200,366 by Arkadiy 3/24/05 5:20:44 PM Reply	Step 1: take an axe to police officer... -- And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings? -- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
Post #200,371 by jake123 3/24/05 5:32:18 PM Reply	Step 2: be restrained by said officer's partner. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #200,374 by Arkadiy 3/24/05 5:36:44 PM Reply	Ideally, yes. But it only takes one lucky malcontent to make headlines. It's not like guns are used for masacres daily, either. -- And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings? -- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
Post #200,375 by Nightowl 3/24/05 5:40:20 PM Reply	Besides Their partners are not normally in their residences when off duty, and this was clearly an off duty issue. Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,379 by jake123 3/24/05 5:54:48 PM Reply	Holy geez, try to keep up That's about the case in Britain that I mentioned earlier. Police in Britain aren't armed with guns anyway. Arkadiy: but when they are, a lot more people get killed than would if the perp had been armed with a big knife, say. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #200,382 by Nightowl 3/24/05 6:03:45 PM Reply	I'm trying I must have missed that switch over... I don't feel all that great and my concentration isn't up to par. Sorry. Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,384 by jake123 3/24/05 6:14:35 PM Reply	Nah, I'm sorry that was a little harsh of me, in retrospect. Hindsight's 20/20, as they say. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #200,385 by Nightowl 3/24/05 6:25:19 PM Reply	No problem I probably should be in bed, but I'm bored of being in bed, so I thought I'd try and catch up online. Unfortunately, my thinking is pretty ragged at the moment. It's okay Jake, I didn't take it harshly, really. :) Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #200,406 by pwhysall 3/24/05 8:57:10 PM 3/24/05 8:58:35 PM Reply	Re: Holy geez, try to keep up Not strictly true, but when our boys/girls in blue do carry, they don't mess around: the police at Heathrow (the only place they routinely carry; every force has an ARU) are armed with sub-machine guns. [link\|http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2004/01/02/heathrow.jpg\|http://image.guardia...1/02/heathrow.jpg] Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall March 24, 2005, 08:58:35 PM EST Expand All History
Post #200,483 by jb4 3/25/05 1:20:21 PM Reply	The Binary option? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #200,416 by Arkadiy 3/24/05 9:25:20 PM Reply	I meant that the perp needs to get lucky against a cop Or get a gun from a criminal. And then we're back at square 1 -- And what are we doing when the two most powerful nations on earth -- America and Israel -- stomp on the elementary rights of human beings? -- letter to the editor from W. Ostermeier, Liechtenstein
Post #200,404 by boxley 3/24/05 8:43:56 PM Reply	last weekin atlanta one guy in jail kills 4 people he started out unarmed. thnx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,361 by bionerd 3/24/05 5:06:05 PM Reply	Re: How old are your kids? I've had different people (their peers) tell me various things about my daughters (smoking, pot, sex, truancy). I've confronted them. They deny. Without proof, can't really do anything but keep eyes open and watch. You learn to read what they're saying by what is missing. That's what I'm saying. You're doing your job as a parent. I didnt realize that this boy had recently come to live with his grandparents. I'm not blaming the grandparents for this. By the time they got him he was already damaged and I'm sure they did the best they could. It just seems to me that every adult failed this kid, from his parents right on down the line to his teachers and his therapist.
Post #200,099 by daemon 3/23/05 9:51:16 AM Reply	yea, fox news is already jumping on that bandwagon happened because they are indians, different, to be expected , bla, bla :-( may you go in beauty
Post #200,100 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 9:53:50 AM Reply	Some editorials from the local newpaper All from the StarTribune (iwethey/iwethey) [link\|http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5307711.html\|Red Lake/Sharing a special place's pain] [link\|http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5307711.html\|But see beyond the shooting] A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,126 by drewk 3/23/05 1:01:19 PM Reply	Question about the Tribal Chairman's comments "Without a doubt this is the darkest day in the history of our tribe," said Floyd Jourdain Jr., the Red Lake tribal chairman. Really? Darker than the day your people were rounded up and forced onto a reserveration? And anyone who didn't go peacefully was shot? Nice to see a complete lack of historical perspective is a universal trait among politicians. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #200,130 by jbrabeck 3/23/05 1:13:44 PM Reply	He may mean Inflicted on the tribe by one of its members, while the other events were inflicted by us (the historical us). Don't know, just guessing. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #200,198 by boxley 3/23/05 6:29:28 PM Reply	much darker,inflicted by a full blood (appearing) child against elders and peers for perceived differences. They survived "us" but by reading the comments posted by the shooter on the nazi board there isdeep divisions amongst themselves. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #200,232 by broomberg 3/23/05 8:44:50 PM Reply	Checkout the flash [link\|http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0323051weise1.html\|http://www.thesmokin...323051weise1.html]
Post #200,234 by boxley 3/23/05 8:46:56 PM Reply	there is the root cause, listening to John Lennon tunes should have been banned after 69. Cause and effect you know. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

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