Post #38,334
5/11/02 5:14:47 PM
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Shouldn't be...
..reread the first paragraph of the article. A federal judge on Wednesday ordered the U.S. government to stop permitting coal companies to put tons of dirt and rock from their mountaintop mining operations into streams and valleys, It really does depend on what part of the operation they are talking about. There are differences in treatment of waste generated from mines. From that initial description...it certainly sounds like they are trying to outlaw the depositing of "overburden" in nearby valleys. Overburden is exactly dirt and rocks. And I can tell you that this is and has been the process since surface mining has been done in WV. Mine waste is a completely different pile of dirt (so to speak). If the regulations allow >that< to be dumped into streams and valleys...(a practice that used to be the case...and the impact of that was alluded to in my posts with Imric) then the dude from my new neighborhood might be right...that may be the biggest offense against the CW Act since it was written. I can tell you that this is not the first time Judge Haden has done this...nor will it be the last. He is a strong friend of the folks against mining in the state. But...in fariness...I should look more into the rules that were changed before I go simplistic...even though the "dirt" comment may indeed be the case. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,379
5/12/02 11:08:27 AM
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Yes I should.
You shrug it off with the comment "It's just dirt" as if that was the point of contention. I then see you saying (paraphrased) they are trying to makt it illegal even though it's common practice. Leaving alone the problem with that statement from a logical perspective, I read with a different understanding. They are trying stop the currently illegal practices and stop the Bush administration from re-writing EPA regs to make legal the "common practice" that just happens to have been illegal all along.
K-mart. The company that beat Microsoft in customer satisfaction.
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Post #38,407
5/12/02 9:58:43 PM
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Interesting
The Judge does appear to have them on a technical point in the CWA that appears to be written to cover navigable waterways. These streams are generally about 1 to 2 feet across...not even big enough for a toy boat.
HOWEVER...if the quote of the author of the article is correct...and the revised rules allow for the dumping of mine waste...then you are correct in saying that this is a very bad thing.
The practice of moving the overburden and then replacing it is the practice that has been going on all along. We have a Judge stretching the CWA to challenge the legality of permitting.
So you contend that its been illegal all along...I contend that it hasn't been...though the Judge would like to think it has been...but can only challenge on a jurisdictional basis...and on the qualifier of fill only being allowed for "constructive purpose".
But...I'll grant you being horrified at the "just dirt" comment in hindsight...as there does seem to be some question of whether it is simply overburden being discussed.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,553
5/13/02 11:43:58 PM
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Appeasement
An honest difference of opinion? Yeah, I can handle that. You and I disagree on some particulars. That happens more often than not. My "aghast"comment was in regards to your "just dirt" comment while ignoring the legal argument. You cleared that up. I don't agree with you, but how often has that happned?
As much as I disagree with you, I still consider you a friend and respect you for your unflinching defense (mostly cogently) of the republican philosphy. I just find it hard to accept that an itelligent, self-respecting man could follow that philosphy
K-mart. The company that beat Microsoft in customer satisfaction.
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Post #38,563
5/14/02 12:39:50 AM
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Ouch...
...while I do have some tendencies to "go repo"...I'm much farther gone than that:-)
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,385
5/12/02 5:33:14 PM
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Y'know Beep, despite your protests often
of being misunderstood / accused of terminal pseudo-Conservatism, etc. I'd say the above thread is a reasonable average for your often terse = simplistic er "immediate summaries" [as with.. the female Army Officer being forced to adopt religious parpaphernalia yada yada]. Not a bad ink-blot test, that one, IMnsHO.
BTW FWIW - methinks pseudo-Conservative is an apt descriptor for any folks what claim the label of "Conservative*" (as if that explained anything, esp. Today) -- while steadfastly refusing to offer anything beyond the vaguest of hints about..
* or "Liberal" for that matter - goose/gander.
*WTF* they imagine IS "worth conserving" -?- and some examples of how it is that - there is no imaginable improvement upon the present implementation of that-Thing-so Worthy-of Keeping-Unaltered.
See.. mindless 'conservation' for the nice sound of The Word -- is more like a 'Reactionary' mindset, as in that familiar epithet knee-jerk - beloved phrase of the Dittoheads and other purveyors of fine filth re any dissenting opinion, in the guise of "political dialog(ue)"
(They can't even spel rite)
You OTOH have no such excuse as the Dittoheads - 'cause despite the handicap of a Biz-Ad / Econ-oriented initial conditioning:
you speak Engrish Reel Well. You just happen to filter-out with great regularity - saying WTF you might actually *mean*, except as hypothetical vagaries. Maybe this comes with acquisition of a particular rung on that ladder Upwards.. towards a subtle shift of the day's uniform towards ---> a real Armani! Suit? (just wondering)
Ashton
Hey! I had a suit once, too..
(Had to remove it whenever I had to accomplish any actual work though; finally just skipped the on/off cycle)
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Post #38,411
5/12/02 11:00:31 PM
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It is hard to be humble...
...when your perfect in so many ways ;-)
Seriously though...
I'm a West Virginian. And what you are seeing here is a very small tail trying to wag one hell of a dog on a technicality in the law. The price of his success...the further death of the economy of 2 states with already high poverty and high unemployment.
It helps that you can get the west coast media to cry about how the pristine land is being devastated...because those who have never seen the land will react strongly to the numbers (x miles of streams >destroyed<< all wildlife snuffed out) when the reality is quite different...with the animals needing to move maybe a few hundred yards over to the next valley with a runoff stream.
Is it the best solution? No, not really. In a perfect world we would be able to move all of the dirt to a nice wasteland somewhere..then move it back...there just doesn't happen to be anyplace to fit that bill within a couple of thousand miles.
So, what is the >real< choice here. To mine or not to mine. The consequences of not mining would make alot of people very unhappy when gas prices stay high and oil imports go through the roof. After all...something has to generate all of the electricty currently generated with coal. Let alone the impact to the remaining steel industry.
Do we need to make sure that all of this is done legally and with as much respect as possible to the environment. Yes. If the rule changes include mine waste as fill...then they need to be changed back. The high sulfur content of the waste in these mines leads to very poor water conditions...and it needs to be disposed of in the same way as tailings (water born and collected in lakes)...removed from the site, classified as hazardous and disposed of according to the law.
Any time you want to visit..we'll take a run through the mountains of WV...play spot the old strip mine...and I'm certain to spend alot of time listening to someone tell me how beautiful the place is...when the media would like to keep telling you about the >evil industry< turning WV into some vast wasteland.
I am not saying that the mining industry would ever crack into the top 100 places to work...nor allowing them to shirk responsibility for land reclamation once the mining is complete (a requirement now that was not so historically)..and...
...yes, this is a pro-bizness stance...a bizness that happens to keep bread on the table of thousands of fellow West Virginians who would have NOTHING to replace that income should it be lost. There isn't anything else there...no "service industry" to fill the void...no chance to farm...get a job at the local factory...there aren't any of those things in these areas. For these people...without the mines...its move or die...and with unemployment in the high teens...even moving doesn't guarantee anything.
I also find this another amazing example of politics in action. Bush will be painted as the President who single handedly destroyed the planet...but this practice (post CWA) predates him and his father by a decade.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,420
5/13/02 1:13:22 AM
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Thank you - That I can understand.
There's enough to make some sense.
Nor have I any reason to doubt your explanation of the consequences of filling in one of countless rills.. with another one practically adjacent. Hell, I'll even agree that the Press is entirely apt to focus upon the imagined "rampant destruction" - sans the foggiest idea of the er 'moon-crater?' aspect of that territory. Sounds as if you've seen the place.. We have no quarrel re awareness of what 'tailings' mean in the above machinations or any future ones which would ignore them. (via Bushie or any other entity). We can also see via -physics- how much energy would be wasted, were the Ideal Solution of "musical dumps" to be invoked for some PR value... {sigh}
I may get close, too - whenever I can get act together to visit some friends in Asheville NC, where I will at least be introduced to the Smokies and.. Carl Sandburg's Connemara. WVA on list as possible swing, too. At present rate of airport madness - maybe drive, so have wheels too. Nahhh..
I have little idea of how effective are modern scrubbers VS the utilization of this hi-Sulfur content coal. I merely presume that this is a problem of the sort which Can be engineered around; if not - how many expen$ive auto catalytic converters will be cancelled out, for these jobs? Rock -->|Miners|<-- Hard Place :( We are supposed to be *smart* and anticipate helping ordinary humans to subsist - without also humiliating each one as a 'deadbeat'. Aren't we?
We all saw what Maggie Thatcher's solution was: kill off the mines/miners (aptly critiqued in Brassed Off, an especially delightful pic IMO even for just folks like myself who love the Colliery Bands). Another 'unintended consequence': whether or not these bands can survive on their considerable virtuosity - absent the sponsorship of the parent org. Selfishly and from afar: *that* loss I'd feel more than I could be capable of truly empathizing with the stark position of the miners in UK. "Feel for" sounds a bit hollow in such cases.
While being agreeable :-) I suppose I might add that - indeed I Can appreciate that 'bizness' is apt to operate in any legal niche as can be found. And maybe the above matters re WVA makes it clear enough that. often enough - a "dirty bizness" is an effect rather than a cause. This whereas, in the case of Billy and his Barbarian Horde of kids whose civics education was cut short - extra-legal viciousness is a purely optional aspect of manic-greed. So there are indeed ordinary businesses and then there are nasty bizness droids -- my lawful prey.
Sadly -- all intermixed, both kinds buy our Representatives away from 'us'. So I gotta keep imagining that, despite the odds of where the Power resides: we shall either reform Corporate law or - the progression seems about obvious by now.
Should your present Corp stray from Righteousness, will be pleased to lend you a slightly used lance ;-) Remember: as a local rep of IWETHEY - it's your responsibility to steadfastly keep them CIEIOs from fanciful lustings about Spanish villas (by selling the middle managers into slavery, say - or sending them to relieve the miners?). Y'know?
Ashton
Corrupting Powerful Machines since.. the Pinto.
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Post #38,447
5/13/02 9:56:08 AM
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Zero-sum vs equilibrium
While being agreeable :-) I suppose I might add that - indeed I Can appreciate that 'bizness' is apt to operate in any legal niche as can be found. Think "life". When the eco-system changes, the inhabitants find a new equilibrium. The same with biz-ness. The legalities are part of their eco-system. As the legalities of what they do changes, the biz-nesses will find a new equilibrium. Not that there might not be pain for the individuals involved in the biz. Not that some companies might fail. But there exists the opportunity for NEW companies to flourish. Isn't it strange how you never see "Conservatives" trying to conserve the envirnoment? Instead, they seem to be focused on "conserving" the current biz-ness practices.
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Post #38,466
5/13/02 12:23:16 PM
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Re: Zero-sum vs equilibrium
Think "life". When the eco-system changes, the inhabitants find a new equilibrium. Or go extinct. As the legalities of what they do changes, the biz-nesses will find a new equilibrium. That is indeed the question. Where is that new equalibrium and what is the cost to society of attaining it? Not that there might not be pain for the individuals involved in the biz. Or the thousands of employees whose life depends on it. But there exists the opportunity for NEW companies to flourish. Unless those new companies locate in the backwoods of WV...see above. Isn't it strange how you never see "Conservatives" trying to conserve the envirnoment?. Care to tell me who signed the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, the National Environmental Policy Act and the Endangered Species Act? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,468
5/13/02 12:47:57 PM
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You make it far too easy.
Or the thousands of employees whose life depends on it. Awwww, and think of all those poor blacksmiths who were out of a job making horse shoes. Or the buggy whip industry. And so on and so forth. Or are you advocating a welfare state where the government supports specific industries just so people who made decisions don't have to face the consequences of those decisions?
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Post #38,470
5/13/02 1:06:11 PM
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Sure...
...change focus. Brandi remains on par for the course.
Funny...neither industry you mentioned (poor little babies) carried an entire state economy on its back. Don't remember either of them being critical to east coast power generation. Neither of them would have been a blow to steel production either.
And you call >me< strawman. Thats rich.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,482
5/13/02 2:51:08 PM
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Just establishing criteria.
You were talking about people being out of jobs.
I gave historical examples of such.
Now you're talking about power generation and state economies.
And you accuse ME of changing focus?
Now, if it is about power generation and steel production, a more expensive, less damaging method of removal would seem appropriate.
Like I said, the balance will be found.
Just because you want to keep the situation the same for poluting industries...
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Post #38,498
5/13/02 4:25:31 PM
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Not
Just trying to make light of a situtation that you don't understand by introducing nonsense. Now you're talking about power generation and state economies Now?!? You jumped in...why don't you try >rereading< the post to Ashton. Seems in this particualer thread I've been discussing it all along. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,502
5/13/02 5:00:48 PM
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Let's take it from the top.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38164|You do realize that they're talking about dirt.] Yet you claim: Seems in this particualer thread I've been discussing it all along.
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Post #38,503
5/13/02 5:04:06 PM
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*Yawn*
Same, tired antics.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,579
5/14/02 7:49:30 AM
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Double *Yawn*
BePatient: Same, tired antics. Yes... From you. Christian R. Conrad
Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #38,588
5/14/02 8:48:35 AM
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Can you keep up?
Track this thread up. In this subthread. Notice I >DID< talk about those things that fuckwit said I did not.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,600
5/14/02 9:24:22 AM
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With you? Dunno... But I *know* that *you* can keep up.
You can keep up your constant habit of coming down on the side of Big Bizznizz, that is.
No matter what the issue, no matter where and when it occurred, no matter who brings it up... Bill Patient *will* find a "reasonable, logical" reason to side with CorpAm.
Sorry, but that's the way it looks: *All* I can remember from you, *ever*, is you posting in favour, defence, or outright praise of the Fortune 500 and the Dow-Jones Index.
Sure, a reasonable, logical, non-fundamentalist thinking man, making up his mind for himself, must come down in favour of the traditional enemy of the Commie Leftist Pinko Scum, *sometimes*... And that's probably what you think -- or at least, what you will claim -- you are doing.
But how credible is it to claim one is a reasonable, logical, non-fundamentalist thinking man, making up his mind for himself -- when one comes down Pro-Big-Biz *every single time*???
It was in *that* sense I meant my "Same, tired antics... From *you*".
And I stand by that characterization.
To convince me otherwise... Just *behave* otherwise, for fucking once.
BTW, FWIW, the irony in the (mis-?)nomer "Conservative" struck me too, reading this thread the other day -- I remember pondering whether I should post and ask about "What is it 'conservatives' want to 'conserve', exactly? Because whatever it is, it sure doesn't seem to be the environment!"
Don't you yourself see a contradiction in this? Although you would probably label most pro-environmental-conservation types as "radicals" or something -- even when it is *they* who want to *conserve* something, and you don't -- wouldn't the moniker for *your* view actually be more truthful, if it were something like simply "pro-business"?
Christian R. Conrad
Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #38,623
5/14/02 11:19:16 AM
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Couple of things.
There are nearly 300 registered participants on this forum. There are maybe 5 or 6 non-liberals. I have a tendency to get into these discussions because I find them fun.
Without my participation...you'd all have a great time agreeing with each other...where's the fucking fun with that???
Pick the right subject and you might very well be surprised to see that I am decidedly ANTI big business in those areas. Microsoft for one. If I was all for big biz...I would be hanging out with the Ayn Rand folks telling stories and asking "Who is John Gault?"
This issue is beyond big bizness...although it involves big bizness. READ...where it involves reclassifying WASTE..I am NOT in favor. Where it is dealing with overburden (dirt) I am in favor. So on this issue I both fall in favor and out of favor with the bizness.
The real issue is the economy of my home state...which has pretty much nothing else to rely on. Especially deep in Appalachia where the mines are. Take away the mines and these people starve. In that case...you better have a very good reason to shut them down. Shut them down and electricty, heating oil and gas costs rise for everyone from South Carolina to Maine. Steel production in northern WV and Pennsylvania also close for good. Again, to do that you had better have a damned good reason.
Keeping sulphuric acid out of the water table is a good reason. Protecting a temporary stream in the mountains of WV is not. In order to understand that you really need to know the land. As a description...this is what you get for about 800 miles...hilltop, stream, hilltop, stream, hilltop, stream, hilltop, stream. These are not full time streams either...just runoff...so EVERY VALLEY has one. There are alot of valleys there.
If you listen to the knee-jerk folks quoting their numbers...you picture this wide-spread devastaion of miles and miles of land. This is, quite frankly, bullshit. If you ever get over here I'll show you.
The real issue is this. A Judge and an Action Group are using the CWA to try and accomplish an objective. That is to stop this type of mining. >Technically< they have put forward an argument. Their objective has little to nothing to do with Clean Water.
As for the >conservative< misonomer all you really need to do is answer the question I posed to Brandioch. Who signed those 4 monumental pieces of environmental legislation?
And how does pro-bizness magically become anti-environment? Unless we all decide that communal living is the way to go...the 2 are going to >have< to co-exist. There are "radicals" on both sides. There is inconsistency on the positions of both sides. I don't know where the "commie pinko scum" thing came from...but where industry is concerned I CERTAINLY want to do it better than the former Soviet states, who have an environmental record that would make the worst US offenders seem like Mr Clean. If it is just a way of proclaiming me anti-government...then you get a B+, for I'm worse than most...but not as bad as some.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,632
5/14/02 12:07:48 PM
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Inject some science here
moving dirt from top of hill to bottom. The only pollution would be the traces from the vehicle moving the dirt. Same dirt on top, same dirt on bottom. Now if the argument is that dirt by its nature is a pollutant, then your going to die unless you move on a boat.
Unless you have watched one too many Segal movies :)
me dux
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
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Post #38,643
5/14/02 1:28:22 PM
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My observations.
At the point where Bill "Strawman" Patient replies with NO references or facts or ANYTHING other than his usual non-comment, I drop the thread.
Take this one, for example.
It started out about the current regime wanting to re-write laws to okay a practice the EPA has not been enforcing.
"Strawman" says "it's just dirt".
When hammered on this, "Strawman" backs off and says it MIGHT not be "just dirt".
Then he goes on about jobs and hurting the state's economy.
When I point out that jobs DO end, he complains that it's about energy, too and that he's been saying this since the beginning of the thread.
At which point I provide a LINK to the beginning of the thread (the place he said that he started saying it's about energy and state economies).
At which point Bill retreated to his personal insults and non-comments.
So I dropped the thread.
Yes, you've noticed that "Strawman" >ALWAYS< comes down in favour of the government and corporations.
Even when he has to mis-represent himself or the facts ("it's just dirt").
Hammer on him for referenced facts and all you'll get are personal attacks.
This is his pattern. No facts. No substantiation. Claims of secret knowledge. Personal attacks. Not to mention the dreaded "Strawman".
So why waste time right-shifting the forum. I won't say "discussion" or "thread" as there isn't one once he's reached that point.
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Post #38,662
5/14/02 3:13:11 PM
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Hmmm.
I'm sure you make an objective observation.
Along the lines of trying to say that some mythical buggy whip manufacturer controlled a state economy..and the end of those jobs meant these people should "just adapt".
The first paragraph of the article claimed the material to be "dirt and rock". So I believe "its just dirt" is a pretty apt description...unless you >need< the rock to maintain focus.
An article was then introduced that questioned that initial premise...and said that the rule change may allow mine waste to be dumped. A practice that has been banned and should remain so...due to the circumstances that were discussed with Imric in one of the initial offshoots.
I said that particular reclassification would be bad. Agreeing with the initial post that that would, indeed, be a significant rewrite of the CWA. Maybe I need to say these things specifically in order for you to get it...who knows.
Then Ash started this subthread...which may be a problem...by not being so ever-fucking specific with you...I said the beginning of the thread...and not the beginning of this particular line of posts....which appears to be too complicated...because you linked to the top as opposed to direct line where 6 posts prior I did, as a matter af fact, reference the economic effect of your "just adapt" idiocy...before you even brought it up to "establish criteria" (laugh)
With me so far?
And you are one to throw stones about >personal attacks<. With me, those are reserved specifically for you. ask around. You, however, seem to share the wealth with anyone who has the misfortune of having an opinion different than the one held by our lord most high, Brandioch.
And this is a fine example of you dropping a thread. Move it somewhere else in a fight for the chance to get in one more dig.
Tired.
Yawn.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,674
5/14/02 4:29:13 PM
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Bill "Strawman" Patient.
I'm sure you make an objective observation. Yes. I do. Along the lines of trying to say that some mythical buggy whip manufacturer controlled a state economy.. And you have just confirmed my reference to your use of strawmen as a standard "discussion" practice. The first paragraph of the article claimed the material to be "dirt and rock". Yep. You stop looking once you've found something that you think will validate your corporate masters. And so on and so forth. You continue in the same manner. Hey, Mr. Strawman, this is what "End of Thread" means.
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Post #38,677
5/14/02 4:39:15 PM
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Oh...
...you can't invalidate any of it.
See ya round.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,678
5/14/02 4:39:31 PM
5/14/02 4:40:35 PM
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there need not be 2
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
Edited by bepatient
May 14, 2002, 04:40:35 PM EDT
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