You're looking at your stats of choice

Post #369,434 by crazy 1/9/13 7:54:52 AM Reply	You're looking at your stats of choice If I look at these, I can come up with a case for prohibiting certain religions based on suicide rate comparisons. Or lack of religiousness. Or prohibiting guns just for certain religious sub-sets. http://www.religious....org/sui_fact.htm #1: Are we talking about all guns or your very special list of automatic rifles, which are RARELY used for self-harm? #2: Once you want to talk about all guns, game over. You are NOT coming after all the handguns, shotguns, and long rifles short enough to stick in your mouth out there, at least not for suicide prevention. Come up with another reason. #3: If you are talking about just the automatic rifles, then game over again, this is a pimple on a gnats ass worth of deaths as compared to pretty much any other method of suicide. Come up with a another reason. So, it is game over no matter what when applying any logic to the situation, at least as regard to suicides. It goes from SAVE THE CHEEELDRUN to SAVE THE CRAZY FUCKERS. It is the same argument against pot. Come up with a new argument, this one does not work, even when drook uses it.
Post #369,436 by Another Scott 1/9/13 8:07:26 AM Reply	This post was just about 3 things. 1) How many gun owners are there in the US? We don't have hard numbers. Estimates vary. 2) How many guns are in the US? We don't know. The NRA and the gun manufacturers want us to think there are a lot, but won't release numbers to the public. Congress restricts the data that can be collected by the ATF and other agencies. 3) Do guns in the home make suicide more likely on average? No question - yes. Why? We don't know. It's not about what to do about these things. Not yet. Figuring out the solution to a problem is impossible unless you think clearly about the problem. And part of that is having numbers you trust. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #369,437 by crazy 1/9/13 8:17:46 AM Reply	Sigh 3) Do guns in the home make suicide more likely on average? No question - yes. Why? We don't know. Haven't you ever thought about killing yourself? And made the judgement between too painful or to possibly failure prone? Lye in the throat burns, maybe not enough guts to really drown (gotta find water deep enough), stepping in front of a train might not actually kill you, same with traffic, etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. But a gun to the mouth? Dammit, that's quick and pretty damn sure. I do know a friend who's mother tried a gun across the temple. She ended up blind but not dead. That made me understand I'd have to get it right if I chose a gun, but it would probably work. Guns are meant to kill, no argument. They are quick and effective. But messy. Most women will choose not to use guns, which sometimes has been attributed to their desire not to leave a mess around for someone else to cleanup. So, availability of a gun will allow someone to make the decision and execute it in the privacy of their own home, with little fear of pain or failure. Is this so tough? It is effective. So what? SAVE THE CRAZY FUCKERS. No. Let them kill themselves in the most painfree manner possible. If it is a SAVE THE CHEELDRUN rant? Lock the parents up for not securing their guns if they didn't at least try, but if the kid crowbars a lock off a gun cabinet, they are in the clear.
Post #369,441 by S1mon_Jester 1/9/13 9:38:30 AM Reply	Sidenote: I strongly suspect that not all suicides are captured. The person driving their car at night, drunk and crashes into a tree might be a drunk driver statistic. Or it might be a suicide. Gun suicides are much easier to measure.
Post #369,439 by boxley 1/9/13 8:35:35 AM Reply	looking at the mad rush in all 50 states to buy as many guns as possible before the idiots in DC turn off the taps I would think the estimates of gun ownership are not valid. People will not admit to 3rd parties that they own one. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,442 by S1mon_Jester 1/9/13 9:40:21 AM Reply	Re: looking at the mad rush in all 50 states Lots of people will make the argument that those who do are pro-gun, anti-government and trying to prevent the government from "stealing their guns". A more realistic approach: Why admit you own one (or more)? What is the upside?
Post #369,438 by drook 1/9/13 8:21:41 AM Reply	That's not a primary argument The suicide numbers are a refutation of the pro-gun argument that they're for home safety. "Guns in the home make you safer." Statistically, no. They correlate with increased suicide rate more than they correlate with decreased crime. -- Drew
Post #369,443 by crazy 1/9/13 9:55:55 AM Reply	Ehh, side show Will ANY of the POSSIBLE solutions allow you to reduce those numbers? If so, by how much and at what impact to the people who are currently legal and you wish to make them criminals? If not, why the fuck spend any time on it?
Post #369,447 by crazy 1/9/13 10:14:22 AM Reply	But if you REALLY want this argument Please tell me how the stats account for the guy who used to live in this house. He waved his gun around several times as people in the back yard attempted to break in and they scattered. Go ahead, tell me many thousands of incidents like this don't happen, and when they do, they end up in the gun preventing crime stats.
Post #369,448 by Another Scott 1/9/13 10:16:49 AM Reply	Can't prove a negative. HTH.
Post #369,450 by crazy 1/9/13 10:33:51 AM Reply	If this guy didn't have that gun He would have been robbed for sure and possibly dead (he's fragile). I'll meet your SAVE THE CRAZIES and raise you with SAVE THE FRAGILE OLD FOLK (make guns easier to use and quicker access when needed in an emergency).
Post #369,451 by crazy 1/9/13 10:40:17 AM Reply	The day police response to home invasion is instantaneous AND trustworthy (they'll fuck you over most of the time as a byproduct of the interaction (general population, not just me)), is the day this argument might get some legs. Until then, it is hand waving on both sides, and hand waving doesn't change the status-quo.
Post #369,454 by Another Scott 1/9/13 12:57:11 PM Reply	The status quo is going to change. It's better that the changes be based on the best numbers we can get, rather than just heat of the moment emotion. I think we agree on that. I guess we'll know more when we see what's in Biden's proposal and how hard it's pushed through Congress. Cheers, Scott.
Post #369,455 by boxley 1/9/13 1:01:04 PM Reply	your changes will have nothing to do with preventing another Sandy Hook yet I am one being inconvenienced, nice Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,457 by folkert 1/9/13 1:08:09 PM Reply	If everyone... were Extremely Responsible Gun Owners and kept Guns safely in check... this would be one thing. Do you keep you guns in a Gun Safe or Locked with a Chamber Sling or quality Trigger locks? What about your AMMO. Do you keep it secured? I admit, until recently, I didn't. So, if you want GUNs to be freely available, will you take on Extreme Gun Ownership Responsibility? -- greg@gregfolkert.net PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Post #369,461 by boxley 1/9/13 1:23:05 PM Reply	greg, I don't discuss my security arrangements in public Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,462 by folkert 1/9/13 1:39:46 PM Reply	As if you... are that important. What the eff ever. Stop taking us to task on something you are emotional about. -- greg@gregfolkert.net PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Post #369,466 by boxley 1/9/13 2:44:10 PM Reply	the emotion is all coming from your side "the cheedrun" Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,468 by Another Scott 1/9/13 2:56:03 PM Reply	Re: the emotion is all coming from your side "the cheedrun" It's more than simply concerns about children. E.g. http://www.boomantri...3/1/9/112550/5992 HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #369,469 by boxley 1/9/13 3:07:08 PM Reply	backatcha http://articles.wash...-police-attorneys Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,473 by Another Scott 1/9/13 5:01:37 PM Reply	And your point is? That people can be killed by knives, so since we can't outlaw or restrict knives, thus, logically, we can't do anything about guns? Is that it? Cheers, Scott.
Post #369,476 by boxley 1/9/13 6:39:53 PM Reply	Re: And your point is? if the little girl who was the point of your link read that would she freak out everytime daddy cut his steak? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,479 by Another Scott 1/9/13 7:18:51 PM Reply	Move to strike as unresponsive.
Post #369,480 by boxley 1/9/13 7:34:48 PM Reply	more words please, what was the point of your post was it not how a killing affected a certain child? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,481 by Another Scott 1/9/13 8:17:45 PM Reply	Re: more words please, what was the point of your post I was responding to your one-line subject: 'the emotion is all coming from your side "the cheedrun"' Perhaps I shouldn't have jumped into your argument with GF, but I couldn't let that lie. "Your side" can be taken as referring to folkert's side specifically, or to the general side of those who think changes are needed in gun laws (and other things related to the purchase and ownership of guns). I took it to mean the latter. "the cheeldrun" is belittling and demands a response, IMHO. I was trying to illustrate that the concerns were more than simply emotional reactions to the mass murder of 20 children in a school. (Yes, I see that you weren't saying that, exactly, but your back-and-forth with him had gotten in the weeds about who was being emotional or not. And your lack of clarity in your posts isn't exactly helping this topic come to closure.) Steven D's post illustrated, I thought, that a 'relatively routine' murder can have devastating consequences in a family and friends. The common-place nature of it doesn't change its horror. The terror of the little girl is only a small part of the damage. 20+ victims aren't required. http://www.whitehous...aith-prayer-vigil IÂve been reflecting on this the last few days, and if weÂre honest with ourselves, the answer is no. WeÂre not doing enough. And we will have to change. Since IÂve been President, this is the fourth time we have come together to comfort a grieving community torn apart by a mass shooting. The fourth time weÂve hugged survivors. The fourth time weÂve consoled the families of victims. And in between, there have been an endless series of deadly shootings across the country, almost daily reports of victims, many of them children, in small towns and big cities all across America -- victims whose -- much of the time, their only fault was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. We canÂt tolerate this anymore. These tragedies must end. And to end them, we must change. We will be told that the causes of such violence are complex, and that is true. No single law -- no set of laws can eliminate evil from the world, or prevent every senseless act of violence in our society. But that canÂt be an excuse for inaction. Surely, we can do better than this. If there is even one step we can take to save another child, or another parent, or another town, from the grief that has visited Tucson, and Aurora, and Oak Creek, and Newtown, and communities from Columbine to Blacksburg before that -- then surely we have an obligation to try. (Emphasis added.) I take Obama's statement as one of the truth that the problem is much bigger than the occasional mass shooting that gets the headlines. I work with people who had children who had to run for their lives at Virginia Tech - one who suffered a broken leg in the process. Modern societies do not need masses of people having guns at home. There is no reason for that to be a right any more. Your "inconvenience", as you put it earlier in #369455, is not my concern, and is not a reason to not make sensible changes that will make individuals, families, and communities safer. What those changes are can be debated, but they don't involve more people with more guns. So, I'm sorry about busting in on your argument and derailing things. But I thought the points needed to be made. Cheers, Scott.
Post #369,482 by boxley 1/9/13 8:57:50 PM Reply	bust in all you want What do you make of the fact that ar15 mags are backordered for 3.5 years? That does not look like the uprising of trust that government is going to make it better. There are a lot of first time buyers out there as well. Your "inconvenience", as you put it earlier in #369455, is not my concern, and is not a reason to not make sensible changes that will make individuals, families, and communities safer. What those changes are can be debated, but they don't involve more people with more guns. that is why people are buying guns, there know that your position matches many other people in power that don't care what the people want, a solution will be imposed that involves more people going to jail, more militarization of the authorities and subjugation of the poor with more draconian laws. This weapon buying spree is going to be stashed by many for (hopefully unnecessary?) use later. Obama is the best gun salesman in America right now. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,483 by Another Scott 1/9/13 9:05:50 PM Reply	Your predictions aren't very good. Hyperinflation? ;-) We'll see what happens. But changes are coming. Cheers, Scott.
Post #369,484 by boxley 1/9/13 9:21:20 PM Reply	Re: Your predictions aren't very good. Hyperinflation? ;-) still waiting on that but guns in working order will bring good prices. You have a better explanation as to why guns are flying off the shelf to a lot of first time buyers? A wild guess is that they dont agree with your(general your) position on guns Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,485 by Another Scott 1/9/13 9:25:46 PM Reply	Lots of people bought Beanie Babies as "investments"...
Post #369,486 by boxley 1/9/13 9:35:35 PM Reply	and some made money on it was looking at an M1 rifle (same rifle most us soldiers carried during WW2) today. Decent shape but at $1200 way over priced (for me) years ago I had a fondness for the old Chuck Connors "rifleman" show and bought a winchester lever action. About 1k rounds later I could get off shots as fast as him and was fairly accurate at short range with it. Saw a nice one for sale for $295. May consider it later in the year. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,672 by lincoln 1/12/13 5:31:25 PM Reply	Re: bust in all you want What do you make of the fact that ar15 mags are backordered for 3.5 years? That does not look like the uprising of trust that government is going to make it better. No, that is fear being pushed 24/7 by Republicans, conservatives, Tea Party members and the talking heads on Fox Network because there's a scary black man in the White house. For the past 4 years the jerks at the NRA have been claiming that "Obama's gonna take your guns" even though he NEVER proposed any further restrictions on guns or ammo during his first term. In fact, Obama loosened the legislation on gun control including allowing guns on Amtrak trains as well as in national parks. If the government wants to get you, your arsenal of AR-15s is not going to stop a SWAT team from breaking down your door while tossing in a few stun or tear gas grenades at 4:30 AM. Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous. - - - Mark Twain ÂPuddÂnhead WilsonÂs New Calendar,Â 1897
Post #369,681 by boxley 1/12/13 6:27:58 PM Reply	naw, you catch the swat team at the donut shop Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,715 by lincoln 1/13/13 10:00:08 PM Reply	they can get their donuts to-go Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous. - - - Mark Twain ÂPuddÂnhead WilsonÂs New Calendar,Â 1897
Post #369,723 by boxley 1/13/13 10:52:59 PM Reply	drive thru ied done deal when you declare an armed rebellion you don't sit at home watching talking heads on fox waiting to get orders one determines who needs/will to be assimilated and then take out the rest. 30 well trained folks near an armory and a small trained group now has evens this conversation is over at this point Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,470 by folkert 1/9/13 3:15:19 PM Reply	No, not the CHEELDRUN. I could give a flying rip about the children. I'm saying regulation and non-exception GUN OWNERSHIP are what need to be in place. If YOU CANNOT see that. Then you really should get some new glasses. I'm all for you having your GUNs, but Extreme Ownership of GUNS is required. With the Extreme Gun ownership comes EXTREME GUN RESPONSIBILITY. And since you don't talk about that stuff, like you are some person on the top 100 FBI most wanted... you likely don't have an real facts in this whatsoever its all just gut reaction. I've been a a gun owner and expert marksman for many years. Don't get ire up on how to fix this and then claim you "don't talk about your security arrangements" its ludicrous to even go down that path... but in your style you do and already are. You obviously don't have any good plan to soothe the "think of the children" nuts... nor someone like me. Nor even really anyone other than "EYE NO MI WRITES!" GUN NUTS. Sorry, until you step up and deal with the reality that is showing up here, not your "nanook got his gun and didna kill no one" hand waving... I think you won't be able to get anywhere here. Heck, I'm having better luck in the motorcycle forums, than you are here! Those peeps ARE CERTIFIABLE! -- greg@gregfolkert.net PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Post #369,471 by boxley 1/9/13 3:20:40 PM Reply	Greg I dont give a rats ass about soothing you or anyone else. Everyone flails about we have to stop the massacres then immediately goes after law abiding citizens with the intent to oppress. After 200 plus years of history of using arbitrary laws to oppress the lesser folk of our nation I do not trust their intentions. It is the very nature of people on your side of the fence to turn me and mine into criminals. Doing so will not even slow down the next mass murderer. Fine, with that in mind I would prefer not to discuss my actions in a public forum for obvious reasons. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,472 by folkert 1/9/13 4:21:56 PM Reply	And again... You think the boogey man is out to get you. Sorry. No need to soothe me. You can have your delusions all by yourself. Please HAVE then by yourself. If you want to take us to task on this, then you'll have to tip your hand just like I've tipped mine. You aren't THAT friggin important and neither am I. Sorry to tell you something you didn't know. -- greg@gregfolkert.net PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Post #369,477 by boxley 1/9/13 6:44:20 PM Reply	you should get a job at microsoft I'm all for you having your GUNs, but Extreme Ownership of GUNS is required. With the Extreme Gun ownership comes EXTREME GUN RESPONSIBILITY. And since you don't talk about that stuff, like you are some person on the top 100 FBI most wanted... you likely don't have an real facts in this whatsoever its all just gut reaction. I've been a a gun owner and expert marksman for many years. expertly fixing the wrong problem. The kid who shot up the school was the kid whose mom took EXTREME GUN RESPONSIBILITY. Kept them under lock and key, trigger locks and ammunition stored separately. Kids are still dead. You are fixing the wrong problem. Typical Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 57 years. meep
Post #369,495 by folkert 1/9/13 11:50:59 PM 1/9/13 11:52:29 PM Reply	Cheers. And you should go back to work at Cox... it fits you. -- greg@gregfolkert.net PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05 Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C Edited by folkert Jan. 9, 2013, 11:52:29 PM EST Expand All History

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