My boy the geek

Post #35,038 by broomberg 4/10/02 8:41:49 PM Reply	My boy the geek Yeah! I just spent the last hour teaching the fundamentals of gvim to my 13 year old son. In order to impress on the ease of use of vi, I let him guess the commands. How do you insert? i How do you append? a How do you delete a word? dw How do you change a word? cw How do you append at the end of a line? A How do you insert at the beginning of a line? I He loved the mnemonics, and loved how few key strokes it took to do any thing. We were fixing up a web page that Newscape Composer created/destroyed, so he really wanted to hack the HTML by hand, but he knows almost no HTML. I told him I wouldn't help him unless he learned a REAL programmer's editor, so we went to gvim. He was dancing with joy, thanking me.
Post #35,042 by Meerkat 4/10/02 9:15:36 PM Reply	Cool! Heh, I was teaching myself TI Extended Basic when I was 13... Which come to think of it had a far less intuitive line editor. How do you edit a line of code? Type in the line number, press function-E or Function-X How do you insert? Function-2 How do you append? Function-D to the end of the line How do you delete a word? Function-1 until it goes away How do you change a word? Function-1 it, then Function-2 to insert etc, etc... Hang on ... why do I still know this? shakes head On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #35,051 by static 4/10/02 10:00:34 PM Reply	Yes but... ... most of those keys had labels for them. ESDX had arrows on them; 1 had DEL printed about, 2 had INS, etc. About the only non-intuitive was FCTN-Up (or Down) for line edit. TI BASIC had an EDIT command which I used until I had to use the FCTN-Up trick in Extended BASIC. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #35,055 by Meerkat 4/10/02 10:14:50 PM Reply	So, there's a market for a 'vi' keyboard :) Mind you - no geek would be seen dead with one. Or, chiclet keyboards should make a combak so you could put on a vi overlay and away you go :) John, who was recently outbid on an auction for a 99/4a...
Post #35,059 by kmself 4/10/02 10:46:28 PM Reply	That would be so cool! An 'i' key with an 'i' label. An 'a' key with an 'a' label. An 'h' key with an 'h' label. A 'j' key with a 'j' label. ... /me ducks. `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand? Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead. [link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]]`
Post #35,061 by Meerkat 4/10/02 10:55:12 PM Reply	I can only only insert at beginning and append at end... ...all my keycaps are in capitals :) On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #35,064 by static 4/10/02 11:20:21 PM Reply	You're not thinking clearly. The 'h' key would have a left-arrow, fr'instance. :-) Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #35,058 by SpiceWare 4/10/02 10:44:25 PM Reply	I went the C= route With a VIC 20 in '81, it's full screen editing ruled :-) Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #35,062 by Meerkat 4/10/02 10:57:53 PM Reply	But you only had 22 columns to play with :( The TI had a whole throbbing 28, normally. But yeah, when I upgraded to a C128, full-screen editing was my friend (and Basic 7.0 rocked, too...) Snippet of IT conversation I just overhead "They employed me right away coz I had a lot of Wang..."
Post #35,097 by SpiceWare 4/11/02 9:38:35 AM Reply	Not many options at that time I was originally going to get the TRS-80 Color Computer(32 columns, all caps). I spent the summer of 81 working at grandma's to save up money for the computer. My parents were going to pay for the other half and I'd get it for Christmas. One day grandma wanted to see this "new fangled thing" that I wanted, so we went to a Radio Shack. The CoCo display was turned off so I asked the guy working there if he would turn it on - his response "I can't, there's a password for it and I don't know it. If it's not typed in correctly it will ruin* the computer".* Needless to say, the bold faced lie really ticked me off, and to this date I purchase a lot fewer things from Rat Shack than I would have. I then found out about the newly released Vic 20 and decided to get that instead. Turned out to be a much better system for me as I'd taught myself programming on a Commodore PET my freshman year in highschool(80-81). I think the funky editing on the CoCo would have annoyed me to no end. I got my first modem around the time I started to learn machine language. I didn't even have an assembler, I used a short BASIC program with data statements and a READ/POKE loop(took me a bit to figure out backward branching). One of my early ML programs was a 40 column terminal, using 4 pixel wide characters(each character was 3 pixels wide with 1 pixel for spacing between letters). It worked surprisingly well(probably because the pixels were so large, somebody did something similiar for the C=64 later but it didn't work quite as well). The only annoying thing was my screen scrolling routine - it went by column(left to right) and made the display look like it was doing the hula while it scrolled :-) Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #35,100 by broomberg 4/11/02 10:59:23 AM Reply	May not have been a lie I had a friend who was a C64 guru. He knew the exact sequence of peeks and pokes that could cause damage to the peripherals, and when a store pissed him off, he'd code it on their demo boxes. They triggered a sequence once, after it flashed a warning on touch. Since they were too stupid to realize turning it off would wipe it clean, they had several boxes on for a huge amount of time, yet were scared to touch them.
Post #35,112 by SpiceWare 4/11/02 11:55:27 AM Reply	while it's possible to harm hardware with software turning on CoCo does not involve a password. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #35,098 by SpiceWare 4/11/02 9:47:43 AM Reply	Ah, BASIC 7.0 yeah, that was cool. I recoded the 128's PLAY routine for my BBS/Term programs on the C64, had it set up to send music in real time at 300 baud. I sold a quite a few copies of my BBS program - paid for my books a few semesters. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #35,130 by orion 4/11/02 1:20:51 PM Reply	You'd love MESS [link\|http://www.mess.org\|[link\|http://www.mess.org\|http://www.mess.org]] it does TI/994A, C-VIC-20, C64, C128 and other emulation. I think they just came out with an update? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #35,091 by jb4 4/11/02 9:09:38 AM Reply	Re: Cool! When I was 13, I was programming a PDP-8 The only "editor" we had was the ability to punch RUB-OUTs onto the paper tape! Editors?...Bah! You want an editor? I'll give you and editor...TECO! Now get all those pretenders to the throne outta my sight!!! ;-) (P.S. Nowadays, I use ED4W as my editor. Hell, I've been doing this professionally for over a quarter century...I've earned the occasional luxury!) jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #35,076 by wharris2 4/11/02 12:26:05 AM Reply	Oh! Oh! Oh! I may disagree with you, and sometimes curse you (mentally), but I rejoice in your training your boy on the Right Editor. :-) And when will you introduce him to Nethack? (new version 3.4 just released). Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #35,096 by Arkadiy 4/11/02 9:29:56 AM Reply	Obligatory... Vi sucks. Emacs Rules. But I am happy for you and your son anyway! :)
Post #35,101 by broomberg 4/11/02 11:02:31 AM Reply	We had that discussion Either vi or emacs as your editor is the "correct" answer to interview question when we hire anyone fo Unix related jobs. Then some assholes answer "echo text > file.txt". Anyway, I told him that his choice was either, but I could only answer vi questions. And then I gave him the bushbaby book to seal the deal.
Post #35,106 by admin 4/11/02 11:25:20 AM Reply	Make him learn both So he can at least hold an intelligent conversation about them. And when I say "learn" I don't just mean keybindings. Actual use of the editor's modes, like dired, ange-ftp, etc. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #35,167 by broomberg 4/11/02 4:55:48 PM Reply	You crazy Who the hell discusses editors? You USE them. The only time you discuss them is in a pissing match, ie: mine is better than yours.
Post #35,168 by admin 4/11/02 4:58:09 PM Reply	shrug Only time I get in a pissing match is when someone who hasn't bothered to learn mine tells me how shitty it is. ;-) Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #35,206 by broomberg 4/11/02 8:35:11 PM Reply	You mean that overloaded piece o' Nah, it's a matter of baby chick syndrome. I still remember (no, I won't bother, it'll trigger off a storm of I remembers). I tried to learn EMACS about 2 years after vi, before gvim was created. I got the REAL book from the FSF, did the exercises, and tried living in it for a month. I still have the book. Didn't stick. I went to brief, and then vslick on windows. Then gvim was created, so I went back.
Post #35,213 by inthane-chan 4/11/02 9:22:46 PM Reply	You're all overlooking the REAL god of editors. edlin. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #35,226 by static 4/12/02 12:45:58 AM Reply	You. Soap. Mouth. Now. Dear oh dear... Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #35,228 by Meerkat 4/12/02 2:15:33 AM Reply	Let's get to the bottom of this. Changing patch cables on ENIAC :) On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #35,229 by static 4/12/02 2:23:56 AM Reply	I can't believe you've done that. But I've edited machine code directly in memory. In hex. Using Debug. :-) Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #35,230 by Meerkat 4/12/02 2:30:22 AM Reply	That's because I haven't. But I did do a (tiny) bit of mucking about in Debug. It for some work thing, can't actually remember what. On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #35,237 by imric 4/12/02 7:43:35 AM Reply	When I first learned to program, I used punched paper tape for backup, and a teletype for entry... We also used punched cards. My boss at the time would make programmers with attitude problems use the patch cables to reprogram the punched-card sorter as an attitude adjustment... Even the threat worked. grin At least, I was never selected for that singular 'honor'. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #35,257 by wharris2 4/12/02 12:15:03 PM Reply	Re: That's because I haven't. I cracked Ultima 4 and Ultima 5's copy protection with debug. Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #35,240 by jb4 4/12/02 9:12:09 AM Reply	I'll see you, and raise you 010 But I've edited machine code directly in memory. In hex. Using Debug. ;-) I've edited machine code directly in memory. In octal. Using the front panel switches. :-\ufffd jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #35,248 by hnick 4/12/02 11:27:27 AM Reply	Here you go... [link\|http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990508\|This fits here ] :)
Post #35,293 by broomberg 4/12/02 11:43:23 PM Reply	Mel has you all beat [link\|http://info.astrian.net/jargon/Hacker_Folklore/The_Story_of_Mel.html\|http://info.astrian..._of_Mel.html]
Post #35,286 by Ashton 4/12/02 6:11:10 PM Reply	Hey!...... Me too________but Alas.. I lacked the masochistic stick-toited-ness to bravely go forward into ---> all that led to the Wunnaful World of the Windoze API. {sob} Just thinking of what I have missed! by this cowardly otiose decision.. leaves me in a mood of :( Giggle.. Giggle.. Giggle.. Giggle.. Giggle.. Giggle.. Giggle.. Giggle.. G R I N
Post #35,299 by static 4/13/02 3:30:04 AM Reply	Interesting game. Besides, it will probably show a few people's ages... I've also used the old DOS Debug to genuinely debug a program. Well, a small assembly routine linked inside a QuickBASIC program. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #35,297 by cforde 4/13/02 3:23:02 AM Reply	Been there, got the scars. >But I've edited machine code directly in memory. In hex. Using Debug. :-) I've done that too. But it wasn't Debug, it was the VM equivilent PER. Edited real memory on a real production machine in mid-day. Crashed it hard too. That gave a couple of thousand people a little extra time for lunch. I forget the exact problem we had, but we were unable to log onto MAINT, the main administrator account (think root). To get around this we overwrote CP's password checking code to bypass the password check. This would allow the logon to happen, we'd put the code back the way it was and all would be well. Worked fine until it was time to put the code back. I had three other guys verify my typing before I pressed enter. Seems there was a digit wrong. sigh. Explaining what happened to the security guys was "interesting" too... Have fun, Carl Forde

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