That much is obvious

Post #291,180 by bepatient 8/20/07 12:46:46 AM Reply	That much is obvious Just as obvious as the fact that you are overlooking the message that he is actually out there giving...which is setting goals and working to achieve them. Like it or not, not everyone has to get a 4 year degree from U of anywhere to achieve their goals. They do, however, have to work hard to achieve their own greatness, in whatever endeavor they go after. You seem to be holding him to >your< standards and begrudge anyone who doesn't hold >your< ideal. In the process, you seem to be lumping a perfectly good role model in with a large gang of thugs. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,187 by mmoffitt 8/20/07 10:42:14 AM Reply	You have a point. Sort of. I'd prefer the message to be, "Set meaningful goals and work hard to achieve them." That is my standard and yes, I am disappointed that Tiger failed to live up to those. He and his father used all the right words at first, then 180'ed on me. You can assail me for projection, but I hold that the best way for the kids looking up to him to achieve their goals is to stay in school. How many kids are going to have a Dad that works as a greenskeeper in a Country Club? How many are going to be born with the talent to play professional sports? It is a mean spirited lie perpetuated by athletes that many inner city kids of color can improve their socio-economic status through sport. They stand a far greater chance of accomplishing that goal by staying in school. And despite what you say about Tiger's message, the message those kids learn from him is that school is not important. If you listen closely you can hear them, "Tiger didn't go to school and look at him. Why should I go to school? All I need to do is to learn how to play golf/tennis/basketball/baseball/football well enough and then I'll be a famous, successful person like Tiger is." That's a lesson that for the vast majority of kids is best left unlearned. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,190 by bepatient 8/20/07 11:04:58 AM Reply	Which school because, again, your projection is assuming that all these kids will have access to college. They won't. For those that won't, having someone successful tell them that the path to that success means working hard to achieve is something to be promoted. You have him lumped in with folks that are on record saying "practice? practice?" and a bunch of others who don't work hard, tell everyone they don't work hard and are openly combative with the very organizations that allowed them their success. (or worse, in the case of vick, jones, et al). We're not talking about an absolute criteria. If we had our choice of who these kids looked up to, I am with you that my first choice would NOT be from athletics. We don't get that choice...and given a choice of ANY athlete of color to put in front of these kids I'm likely to pick Tiger. He's extremely talented YET he still works harder than anyone with half his game and he promotes a high calibre message to kids about goal setting. Your stated position that he's no better than any other black athlete is simply wrong. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,193 by mmoffitt 8/20/07 11:31:44 AM Reply	Saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so. The message of his example is just as bad as any other athlete's. Of course, I'm projecting again. That's only true if you believe that staying in school is a good idea. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,194 by bepatient 8/20/07 11:54:51 AM Reply	We're getting nowhere so might as well stop. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #291,199 by mmoffitt 8/20/07 12:46:51 PM Reply	Amen. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,198 by Another Scott 8/20/07 12:30:45 PM Reply	Isn't an underlying assumption in all of this... that at-risk young people care about golf? :-/ Such kids care about basketball because courts are everywhere and almost no equipment is needed. Fame and fortune awaits! :-( Similarly with music performers.... Even if Tiger went to Stanford and got his degree before turning pro, I don't think he would have as much impact as a pro basketball player or pro football player with the same background. Yeah, maybe he shouldn't have said he was going to finish school first. But really... :-) Tiger's a bright spot in the world of pro sports, but he's just a tiny bright spot. Finishing at Stanford wouldn't have made that much difference in his appeal to at-risk youth, IMHO. Cheers, Scott.
Post #291,200 by mmoffitt 8/20/07 12:54:31 PM Reply	Finishing school wouldn't have changed his appeal at all. And my whole point is that he could have used his enormous appeal to promote a message seldom (if ever) heard from athletes: education is more important than a game. This whole "He says, 'Set goals, work hard and stick to them'" schtick he gets credited for completely baffles me. He is just another jock. Atypical game, sure. But in the final analysis he is just another jock. He could have been more, but chose not to be. And I still say that is a pity. bcnu, Mikem Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
Post #291,212 by Ashton 8/20/07 7:32:56 PM Reply	Sadly, there are only a vanishing-few examples of This combination of nascent-wisdom + the patience to work AND wait.. (for the Big rewards.) Andy Hertzfeld - (orig. Mac team) really Did go back and get his engineering degree, after all those years of exponential growth, 36-hour daze and: with enough bucks to coast mindlessly for life, even. I dunno anymore.. where those with a good chance of achieving adulthood before age 60ish - ought "to go." We have to remember always: Murica IS an 'anti-intellectual' society. From the first, but especially later-on, after lots of cheap toys exploded, next became: the things to Get. Endlessly. The idea of "a liberal education" was always strong with the already-educated, and for them - the idea of a Glorified Trade School instead, was anathema. But levels-of-Crass appear to have risen with every new 'financial instrument' imagineered, until - now, it's ALL about the Money / Getting Yours and - screw Beowulf, Cato (but not the Cato Institute) or ''' apostrophes. Sadly too, for proper weighting of that 'degree' + Murican myths, folkways - AE as Prime example: It does seem that the Very-bright are as often confounded by the ritual/rote aspects of "average(d) coursework" - as actually catalyzed. (Even AE 'consulted' on advanced math - with his first wife and with others, re the heady math of the General/Special Theories. And we know what his Profs thought of his response to their content/style.) Then look at the code genius Alan Turing - killed off by a braindead pecksniff (even Ashcroft was not That sort of cretin - if we are to believe his refusal to sign a blank check for the Constitution - over to the WH mafiosi scum sent to Get One. And he did this while still drugged, yet! +3 for John.) Genius, even - counts for shit in any Puritan-derived group. (And that was UK.. less excuse.) But yeah, at the level of us mere mortals + kids in any ghetto: our entire Star-besotted kultur sends them all the diametrical opposite direction, for them ever to achieve the functioning brain behind that modern rarity - adulthood. (That 'biz-ed' bears little relationship to 'an authentic education' too; that such a choice affects many millions, maybe even: is the strongest dark-force maintaining a plurality here.. at the puerile level of 'consumer'-only -??- Well, no point in a thread of that direction.) You can't diss the Actual Murican godhead ($$$) to any more effect than when one suggests a moratorium on (sugar-water + acids) carbonated beverages -- and those attack the body; only indirectly - this 'Mind' we are trying to feed. That said - ..now, could I have played the trumpet like Sergei Nakariakov (or Alison Balsom) in early-teens? Screw! n lambda = 2d sin theta -- is what I would have said/done :-) (Even ~knowing the precarious existence of instrumental solo work, long -term) Fortunately (??) .. wrong bone-structure for such transcendence. We are NOT 'rational creatures' - except in hindsight and when prescribing for Others. Maybe the bonobos will do a better job with their opposed thumbs. Could hardly do worse. Now, IF NOT ELSE the cockroaches... forget all about Consciousness - a passing fad.

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