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New Not even close.
I see someone who does it right (save his disastrous departure from college according to you) being compared to a bunch of criminals and thugs as >equals< and someone who has a bit of intelligence trying to justify that position and the racist position of his relatives.

There's no weep in it. The guy is a huge talent, and thats not just my opinion..but the opinion of the greatest to ever play the sport (and others..you should read what Micheal Jordan says about him)

You choose to ignore him because he didn't graduate from college. This is based on your somewhat quaint notion that the only purpose for higher education is self improvement and it serves no other purpose...while high 90s of the rest of the world actually view it as someplace to improve their chances at future employment...something that was obviously not necessary for Tiger since about his 6th birthday.

So pardon me if I find your position...which whether you like it or not, places Michael Vick higher as a role model than Tiger Woods simply because he graduated college..completely laughable. Nothing else counts, remember...because its only one statement he made when he was 17 thats branded him for life as far as you are concerned.

Simply a sad position you've taken.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Miss the ;0)?
You're right, that isn't out difference. Clearly, Pro education == sad position. What really counts is money, right? That's how you measure success, right? Well, sorry, I've never measured a man's success by the size of his wallet or the elitist company he keeps (Federer anyone?).

I tend to measure the success of people by what they've done with their minds in the limited time they have on the planet. And clearly, Woods didn't do all he could with his mind. But he can sure hit a ball well. And Nike gives him 70 million/year to do it. A life well spent without question.

Nice herring with Vick, though. From what I gather, Vick doesn't have the intellect of Woods. But they both accomplished roughly the same intellectually. If you can't see that as a far greater tragedy in the case of Woods than Vick, then many of your positions over the years have become very clear to me.
bcnu,
Mikem

Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
New No I didn't.
And now you are bringing wallet into this when I've not mentioned money once.

We're talking about athletes as role models, remember? You brought it up...right after you waxed about how all these new guys with graphite drivers are cheaters.

You stated that Tiger is no better than any others black athlete because he didn't finish school. How does introducing Mike Vick, a college grad, qualify as a herring? Its YOUR stated opinion that Tiger is no better because he didn't graduate...so someone who did graduate should be a better role model, right?

I tend to measure people by accomplishment of their personal goals. For some that may be money. Clearly athletes make a good dime.

Tigers goal was to be the best golfer in the world. Sure he's getting rich doing it. But he's also #1 in the world rankings. He's chasing the biggest record in golf, major wins. He'll have it in about 5 years. His winning percentage on the Tour is unbelievable. These are his goals.

When he came onto the tour, the goal of the best players was to get a lot of top ten finishes, qualify for the Tour Championship and that was it. Bruce Lietzke, one of the most gifted natural swingers, built his schedule with this in mind. (He was a friend of my club pro, came to our course alot). Golf as a job.

Tiger came to the Tour with the attitude that 2nd place is a loss. It shook those guys up. And his focus at accomplishing his goal is apparent. His practice routine is legend on the Tour.

You go ahead and feel sorry for Tiger. College was not a necessary part of him accomplishing his goal. He's still chasing his dream...and while I'm sure he thinks the money is nice, thats not why he plays.

Clearly you've got a bug up your butt about him that no amount of rational discussion will remove.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New I don't feel sorry for Tiger.
I feel sorry for the kids that look up to him. My point is, and I think that most would agree with me, that kids of all colors, but kids of color in particular need another athlete telling them that education is not important like they need a hole in the head. And in that limited regard, the message from Tiger is the same as any other athlete you can name. In Tiger's case, it was dropping out of Stanford. In most other athletes' cases, it is by failing to have even a rudamentary grasp of the English language, or getting a meaningless diploma from some university they played for.

It is more disappointing to me in Tiger's case because I have always accepted at face value the proposition that he could have gotten into Stanford legitimately based upon his academics alone. How many times does that happen? That an athlete (arguably the best in his sport to have ever played) comes along *with* the intellect and academic rigor such that he can get into Stanford? Right, almost never. Moreover, when he said, "Golf is just a game and it will be there for me after college." he was dead-bang on (and I was pleased to hear his father make similar comments). When I heard him say that, and when he spoke of how his parents had raised him to hold that an education was more important than a game, I thought, "Wow. Here's a kid with his head screwed on right. Corporate Murica's baiting him, but he's not biting. He's gonna break the mold of the modern athlete."

But that didn't turn out to be the case, did it? It's not fair, because there is absolutely nothing fair about being a Black man in America, that I am more disappointed that this Black athlete broke his promise on this score. I mean its unfair in the sense that it is not appropriate to assign special significance to him because he is Black. But Black kids do not have many role models and even fewer that tell them to stay in school - by example, which is the only way a kid ever learns anything.

I don't regret his not doing all in his life intellectually that he could have for his sake (although that is a pity); rather, it is because he has so many kids looking up to him (none the least of which you allude to in his vaunted foundations). It is a shame that the message he sends them by example is that a game is more important than an education. Don't all kids hear that enough already?
bcnu,
Mikem

Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
New That much is obvious
Just as obvious as the fact that you are overlooking the message that he is actually out there giving...which is setting goals and working to achieve them.

Like it or not, not everyone has to get a 4 year degree from U of anywhere to achieve their goals. They do, however, have to work hard to achieve their own greatness, in whatever endeavor they go after.

You seem to be holding him to >your< standards and begrudge anyone who doesn't hold >your< ideal. In the process, you seem to be lumping a perfectly good role model in with a large gang of thugs.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New You have a point. Sort of.
I'd prefer the message to be, "Set meaningful goals and work hard to achieve them." That is my standard and yes, I am disappointed that Tiger failed to live up to those. He and his father used all the right words at first, then 180'ed on me.

You can assail me for projection, but I hold that the best way for the kids looking up to him to achieve their goals is to stay in school. How many kids are going to have a Dad that works as a greenskeeper in a Country Club? How many are going to be born with the talent to play professional sports? It is a mean spirited lie perpetuated by athletes that many inner city kids of color can improve their socio-economic status through sport. They stand a far greater chance of accomplishing that goal by staying in school. And despite what you say about Tiger's message, the message those kids learn from him is that school is not important. If you listen closely you can hear them, "Tiger didn't go to school and look at him. Why should I go to school? All I need to do is to learn how to play golf/tennis/basketball/baseball/football well enough and then I'll be a famous, successful person like Tiger is." That's a lesson that for the vast majority of kids is best left unlearned.
bcnu,
Mikem

Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
New Which school
because, again, your projection is assuming that all these kids will have access to college. They won't.

For those that won't, having someone successful tell them that the path to that success means working hard to achieve is something to be promoted.

You have him lumped in with folks that are on record saying "practice? practice?" and a bunch of others who don't work hard, tell everyone they don't work hard and are openly combative with the very organizations that allowed them their success. (or worse, in the case of vick, jones, et al).

We're not talking about an absolute criteria. If we had our choice of who these kids looked up to, I am with you that my first choice would NOT be from athletics. We don't get that choice...and given a choice of ANY athlete of color to put in front of these kids I'm likely to pick Tiger. He's extremely talented YET he still works harder than anyone with half his game and he promotes a high calibre message to kids about goal setting.

Your stated position that he's no better than any other black athlete is simply wrong.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so.
The message of his example is just as bad as any other athlete's. Of course, I'm projecting again. That's only true if you believe that staying in school is a good idea.
bcnu,
Mikem

Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
New We're getting nowhere so might as well stop.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Amen.
bcnu,
Mikem

Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
New Isn't an underlying assumption in all of this...
that at-risk young people care about golf?

:-/

Such kids care about basketball because courts are everywhere and almost no equipment is needed. Fame and fortune awaits! :-( Similarly with music performers....

Even if Tiger went to Stanford and got his degree before turning pro, I don't think he would have as much impact as a pro basketball player or pro football player with the same background.

Yeah, maybe he shouldn't have said he was going to finish school first. But really...

:-)

Tiger's a bright spot in the world of pro sports, but he's just a tiny bright spot. Finishing at Stanford wouldn't have made that much difference in his appeal to at-risk youth, IMHO.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Finishing school wouldn't have changed his appeal at all.
And my whole point is that he could have used his enormous appeal to promote a message seldom (if ever) heard from athletes: education is more important than a game. This whole "He says, 'Set goals, work hard and stick to them'" schtick he gets credited for completely baffles me. He is just another jock. Atypical game, sure. But in the final analysis he is just another jock. He could have been more, but chose not to be. And I still say that is a pity.
bcnu,
Mikem

Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
New Sadly, there are only a vanishing-few examples of This
combination of nascent-wisdom + the patience to work AND wait.. (for the Big rewards.)
Andy Hertzfeld - (orig. Mac team) really Did go back and get his engineering degree, after all those years of exponential growth, 36-hour daze and: with enough bucks to coast mindlessly for life, even.

I dunno anymore.. where those with a good chance of achieving adulthood before age 60ish - ought "to go." We have to remember always: Murica IS an 'anti-intellectual' society. From the first, but especially later-on, after lots of cheap toys exploded, next became: the things to Get. Endlessly.

The idea of "a liberal education" was always strong with the already-educated, and for them - the idea of a Glorified Trade School instead, was anathema. But levels-of-Crass appear to have risen with every new 'financial instrument' imagineered, until - now, it's ALL about the Money / Getting Yours and - screw Beowulf, Cato (but not the Cato Institute) or ''' apostrophes.

Sadly too, for proper weighting of that 'degree' + Murican myths, folkways - AE as Prime example:
It does seem that the Very-bright are as often confounded by the ritual/rote aspects of "average(d) coursework" - as actually catalyzed. (Even AE 'consulted' on advanced math - with his first wife and with others, re the heady math of the General/Special Theories. And we know what his Profs thought of his response to their content/style.)

Then look at the code genius Alan Turing - killed off by a braindead pecksniff (even Ashcroft was not That sort of cretin - if we are to believe his refusal to sign a blank check for the Constitution - over to the WH mafiosi scum sent to Get One. And he did this while still drugged, yet! +3 for John.) Genius, even - counts for shit in any Puritan-derived group. (And that was UK.. less excuse.)

But yeah, at the level of us mere mortals + kids in any ghetto: our entire Star-besotted kultur sends them all the diametrical opposite direction, for them ever to achieve the functioning brain behind that modern rarity - adulthood.

(That 'biz-ed' bears little relationship to 'an authentic education' too; that such a choice affects many millions, maybe even: is the strongest dark-force maintaining a plurality here.. at the puerile level of 'consumer'-only -??- Well, no point in a thread of that direction.)

You can't diss the Actual Murican godhead ($$$) to any more effect than when one suggests a moratorium on (sugar-water + acids) carbonated beverages -- and those attack the body; only indirectly - this 'Mind' we are trying to feed.


That said -
..now, could I have played the trumpet like Sergei Nakariakov (or Alison Balsom) in early-teens? Screw! n lambda = 2d sin theta -- is what I would have said/done :-)
(Even ~knowing the precarious existence of instrumental solo work, long -term)
Fortunately (??) .. wrong bone-structure for such transcendence.

We are NOT 'rational creatures' - except in hindsight and when prescribing for Others.
Maybe the bonobos will do a better job with their opposed thumbs. Could hardly do worse.
Now, IF NOT ELSE the cockroaches... forget all about Consciousness - a passing fad.

New why are you insulting asians?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New I'm not.
I'm all finished insulting anyone.
bcnu,
Mikem

Microsoft Vista. The best reason ever to buy a Mac.
     Berry Bonds is the Bush of Baseball - (tablizer) - (42)
         does tiger woods cheat? - (boxley) - (41)
             Yes. - (mmoffitt) - (40)
                 You know not of what you speak. -NT - (bepatient) - (39)
                     Wrong, Bluto. - (mmoffitt) - (38)
                         Oh, I don't think so. - (bepatient) - (37)
                             Fitness my @ss. - (mmoffitt) - (36)
                                 I'll give you... - (bepatient) - (35)
                                     I'll give you... - (mmoffitt) - (34)
                                         He went for 2 years - (bepatient) - (33)
                                             2 years != enrolled Fall 95 and exited Aug 96 - (mmoffitt) - (32)
                                                 Read much? Fall >94< through summer 96. - (bepatient) - (31)
                                                     "Set goals and work hard?" Like finish school? - (mmoffitt) - (30)
                                                         He can always go back to college. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                             Maybe I am too harsh on him. - (mmoffitt)
                                                         You didn't answer the fundamental question. - (bepatient) - (27)
                                                             You can't answer for me. - (mmoffitt) - (26)
                                                                 I know the names of the Challenger astronauts. - (bepatient) - (23)
                                                                     In a nutshell. Our difference is this. - (mmoffitt) - (22)
                                                                         Not even close. - (bepatient) - (14)
                                                                             Miss the ;0)? - (mmoffitt) - (13)
                                                                                 No I didn't. - (bepatient) - (12)
                                                                                     I don't feel sorry for Tiger. - (mmoffitt) - (11)
                                                                                         That much is obvious - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                                             You have a point. Sort of. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                                                                 Which school - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                     Saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                                                                         We're getting nowhere so might as well stop. -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                             Amen. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                                 Isn't an underlying assumption in all of this... - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                                     Finishing school wouldn't have changed his appeal at all. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                         Sadly, there are only a vanishing-few examples of This - (Ashton)
                                                                                         why are you insulting asians? -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                             I'm not. - (mmoffitt)
                                                                         Whataprick - (crazy) - (1)
                                                                             naw, he's just pissed that he finished school - (boxley)
                                                                         May I jump in and ask a question? - (jbrabeck) - (4)
                                                                             Good point - (imqwerky) - (2)
                                                                                 Re: Good point - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                     there ya go - (imqwerky)
                                                                             Yeah. - (mmoffitt)
                                                                 I have been to colleges to lecture and demonstrate - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                     I guess I was in the 4% then. Thanks. ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt)

Real FORTRAN! Woo-hoo!
178 ms