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New After a long pause, my reply...
You write:
"Both BePatient and Screamer more or less implied that the concept that big corporations are evil is wrong because they know many people that work at big corporations that are not evil."

I can't speak for Bill, but what I was implying, perhaps poorly, was that not all management types are ill-willed or "evil". Nothing else. I think most all have contributed to a rather good thread here.

The concept that a corporation is good or evil is not really debateable, since we haven't said "which corporation". I would pose to you the question, "is Enron worse as an historical entity on the "evil" scale as say, the Catholic Church"? You see where I would take this and you definately don't want to go there. The Church or the Business is nothing more than an abstract name for a group of individuals, some bad - most good.

Perhaps what you mean, is "companies" are uncaring, bottom line centered, etc... I would give you no argument at all there. Be aware though that most well run companies do - make money. Others have done a good job explaining how companies had better do a little more than just make money (like satisfy their customers, employees and stockholders) or they won't be around very long...

Before you paint me into a "shill for the Invisible Hand", let me make it clear that I feel that the Gov needs to regulate certain aspects of Business... I have had to constantly remind the Invisible Handers that most waterways in this country (USA) are not safe to swim in or eat the fish from. As well, most people (no matter how self righteous they appear) do not want a garbage dump or toxic waste site in their back yard (or even a cell phone tower)...

It's interesting now, that the government is stepping in since we have tons of radioactive waste that's been building up over the last 45 years that is currently being stored above ground (not even close to optimal) and making a tough decision - let's use the FEDERAL LAND which Nevada is almost entirely composed of and build a safer storage area"... Makes a certain amount of sense, no? Answer - "NOT IN MY BACKYARD, BUCKO!". Oh, okay, let's put it in New York instead...

No, Jay, I suffer from not seeing things Booleinly (word?)... The world is neither good nor evil to me, corps are neither good nor evil, courts are not just or unjust, people are not either Democrat or Republican, you get the idea? What I do believe is that when problems get too complex, people want to simplify them and assess blame. I'm guilty of it too...

I keep coming back to my old standard people to blame... If we could find it in our hearts to kill our American desire to be "consumers" first and human beings second, then we might have a chance at reforming our corporate landscape (when's the last time YOU bought an American made shirt or shoe?). If we could find a way to elect officials that are willing to do things that will cause us all great pain and suffering and then have the guts to "re-elect them", then we'll straighten out politics...

Example of last statement. Our government (We) owe over $5,000,000,000,000,000. Will you be man enough to tell the next asshole politician who says we have a "surplus" of any kind, "SHUT THE (*&&* UP!". We should freeze all new spending and pay of the frigging debt now. We also should elect officials to that say, "quit using your freaking cars so much - buy some that get good gas mileage at the very least - etc..." I could go on add nauseum... We won't elect these people because by nature, human beings are hedonistic piggies.

In fact, my friend, I will go as far as to say that I am not even hopeful that we will get much further than the bacteria on the petri dish. We will glutton until we are living on top of the corpses and feces of the others before we even notice the food is gone... Now, you want to talk about taxes?
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer

"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..."

P. Townshend

"Nietzsche has an S in it"
Celina Jones
New The kudos always go to those who
Notice! the rotting garbage-heap we have created, then Chrome-plated - yet who do not succumb to the self-pity of also..

Noticing.. umm Hey! this is where I live (too). Why *ME* gawd? {ugh}

I share your pessimism ('realism' - is what we call Our opinions ;-) especially in the dead-certainty that, 'we' shall buffer, rationalize, sweep-under ... otherwise obfuscate the fact of the wasteland which exists just below the Chrome-plated mall facade:

Until we are indeed existing on Soylent-S (guess..) and - all the turn-around time has been pissed away: in endless arguments about prayers in festering schools / abattoirs of the mind; debates about how Quickly (?) we ought to execute the neighborhood teen-age pot smoker - to save the cost of that 40 year prison term (for his 3rd reefer).

We may not agree on the epitaph.. but my first draft reads -


Species killed by terminal self-Righteousness and irreversible defacation in the nest. Cause: language murder.



Ashton
The Crimes of Il Papa can be an entertaining New thread, sometime.
So many escaped criminals - so little time...
New Mostly I agree
Mostly I agree with what you are saying. In fact, after reading this thread, I would say that the biggest disagreement here is not over corporations but over the use of the word "evil."

The concept that a corporation is good or evil is not really debateable, since we haven't said "which corporation".

Why would we have to say which corporation? It is inherent in the design of corporations that they exist to channel money and will work towards channeling ever greater amounts.

Just as there is no need to ask "which one?" when somebody says that guns are dangerous*, I don't much see the point in picking out one specific company when I say corporations are dangerous and amoral.

In fact, my friend, I will go as far as to say that I am not even hopeful that we will get much further than the bacteria on the petri dish. We will glutton until we are living on top of the corpses and feces of the others before we even notice the food is gone.

Very likely, but I refuse to go down quietly.

Jay

* And just as with corporations, there is actually a small fraction that are not really dangerous.
New It's a love fest then...
Your points are taken. I still have a bit of trouble fully agreeing with your assertion (implied) that by design, corporations are like a loaded gun... Unlike a gun, which is designed for only one purpose (to kill or mame thangs), corporations are not designed for any other pursuit than "channeling money", which is not inheritantly good or evil IMHO. That is the distinction that I would like to make and we can agree to disagree. I do not think that corporations are "inheritantly" good nor evil. Money is merely a medium of exchange, again, not inheritantly good nor evil. Drugs are another example... there's Penicillin and there's crack... it runs the spectrum... and, crack before abused is rather an inane substance (neither good nor evil)...

What I'm getting at is that drugs, guns, money corporations are just things until a human being performs an action upon them. The "evil" that is done, is done by the person, not the noun... That is my distinction. Maybe it's just a semantics exercise at this point? :-)
Just a few thoughts,

Screamer

"I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..."

P. Townshend

"Nietzsche has an S in it"
Celina Jones
     Corporations and evil - (JayMehaffey) - (99)
         Thanks for cutting through the bull. -NT - (Silverlock) - (3)
             Figures you'd say that. -NT - (marlowe) - (1)
                 Nickel. -NT - (Silverlock)
             Bull? BULL???? My posts were NOT BULL!!! -NT - (mmoffitt)
         But does it have to be that way? - (Brandioch) - (37)
             I love those ethics. - (bepatient) - (34)
                 Jawohl! - (Brandioch) - (33)
                     You obviously know zero about this case..(added link) - (bepatient) - (32)
                         Hmmmmm, maybe you're right. - (Brandioch) - (31)
                             A jury did settle it. - (bepatient) - (30)
                                 I've read the case. - (Brandioch) - (29)
                                     So... - (bepatient) - (28)
                                         Just giving you enough rope. - (Brandioch) - (27)
                                             Answer the question. - (bepatient) - (26)
                                                 You're just hanging yourself higher. - (Brandioch) - (25)
                                                     Childish little prick - (drewk) - (8)
                                                         how do you know he's little ? ]:-> -NT - (boxley)
                                                         You can quote, but you lack understanding. - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                             You don't need to be manipulated - (drewk) - (5)
                                                                 Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                     Oh, no wonder you're so upset - (drewk) - (3)
                                                                         Let's go over that again. - (Brandioch)
                                                                         Don't bother DK... - (bepatient)
                                                                         Don't bother DK... - (bepatient)
                                                     Yeah...sure... - (bepatient) - (15)
                                                         *SCORE* - (Brandioch) - (14)
                                                             Somebody needs to lighten up and get laid. - (Silverlock)
                                                             Whatever. - (bepatient) - (12)
                                                                 Weasel weasel weasel.... - (Brandioch) - (11)
                                                                     The officers of Enron thank you for your support! - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                                                         Why oh why oh why. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                             Re: Why oh why oh why. - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                     I'm so happy for you. - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                         Hey, I'm not the one with the problem. - (Brandioch) - (6)
                                                                             say what? - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                 Um, okay. "What". - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                     thats fine -NT - (boxley)
                                                                             Are you even trying anymore? - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                 Clarification. - (Brandioch)
                                                                             Sure... - (bepatient)
             B & J are eeeeevil! - (rsf)
             Ben and Jerry's is GONE. -NT - (mmoffitt)
         Mom & Pop shops too? - (rsf) - (2)
             Thank you for that. One point down. -NT - (bepatient)
             That depends - (JayMehaffey)
         So... - (bepatient) - (13)
             Just more sympathetic magic - (Ric Locke) - (11)
                 Your making my point for me - (JayMehaffey) - (10)
                     Evil is as evil does - (nking) - (7)
                         I wouldn't have said it quite that way - (wharris2)
                         Re: Evil is as evil does - (Ric Locke) - (5)
                             Then it is the evil managers - (nking)
                             Trying to set some basis - (JayMehaffey) - (3)
                                 Relativism - (Ric Locke) - (2)
                                     Re: Relativism - (JayMehaffey)
                                     Interesting. - (Brandioch)
                     Evil is as evil does - (nking)
                     What acts in an evil manner? - (marlowe)
             Re: So... - (JayMehaffey)
         Another "by that logic" - (wharris2) - (28)
             How many times must I hammer this - (JayMehaffey) - (27)
                 I must have overlooked it - (wharris2) - (24)
                     If you get scared you must overlook it, besides you knew - (nking) - (23)
                         Norm, you gotta get over this... - (hnick) - (22)
                             Did you even bother to read my posts - (nking) - (2)
                                 Re: Did you even bother to read my posts - (hnick) - (1)
                                     Reform! - (nking)
                             Interesting phrasing there. - (Brandioch) - (5)
                                 Hmmmm interesting! - (nking)
                                 Hmmm - (rsf) - (3)
                                     We seem to have come full circle - back to the daleross(?) - (Ashton) - (2)
                                         Not as stoichastic as you suggest... - (hnick) - (1)
                                             Allow me to clarify. - (Brandioch)
                             I think you've hit on the REAL problem... - (jb4) - (12)
                                 Once that may have been true - (Silverlock) - (3)
                                     Sadly, I believe you are correct. - (hnick) - (2)
                                         Putting the cart before the horse - (jb4) - (1)
                                             Ok, you have a point - (hnick)
                                 Now this may sound silly - (nking) - (7)
                                     And your point is...? - (jb4) - (5)
                                         My point, dear JB, - (nking) - (4)
                                             Not necessarily true - (rsf) - (3)
                                                 What you fail to mention... - (jb4) - (2)
                                                     I know, I know... - (rsf) - (1)
                                                         At the very least - (nking)
                                     And your point is...? - (jb4)
                 Must you hammer this??? - (folkert) - (1)
                     The part I was hammering - (JayMehaffey)
         Setting aside their personal morality for the company? - (marlowe) - (6)
             been there done that - (boxley) - (5)
                 'Evil' Corporations..? - (Ashton) - (4)
                     Arguing over definitions again, I think - (Silverlock) - (3)
                         No, "Evil" fits - (Ric Locke) - (1)
                             Seconded in spades. - (Ashton)
                         Since a corporation by legal definition is an - (boxley)
         After a long pause, my reply... - (screamer) - (3)
             The kudos always go to those who - (Ashton)
             Mostly I agree - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                 It's a love fest then... - (screamer)

Naive is one word for it.
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