I think you've hit on the REAL problem...

Post #28,828 by jb4 2/18/02 2:27:32 PM Reply	I think you've hit on the REAL problem... I work for a BigAssedRouterAndNetworking company. Their avowed purpose is to make money for shareholders (employees are shareholders also, by the bye.) Boy, am I a dunce! Put a cork in it, Beep!...at least until I'm done with my rant! ;-) Here all this time, I thought the "avowed purpose" of BigAssedRouterAndNetworking Co. Inc. was to make the best damn BigAssedRoutersAndNetworks they possibly could, thereby making their products the most attractive in the open marketplace, thereby insuring a healthy profit, thereby insuring that their shareholders got a reasonable return on their investments. How could have I been so silly as to believe this Capitalist tripe?!? I guess nobody needs to do Commerce anymore, when the first derivitave of Commerce will do good enough! OK, Beepster...your turn... jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #28,830 by Silverlock 2/18/02 2:35:50 PM Reply	Once that may have been true Here all this time, I thought the "avowed purpose" of BigAssedRouterAndNetworking Co. Inc. was to make the best damn BigAssedRoutersAndNetworks they possibly could, thereby making their products the most attractive in the open marketplace, thereby insuring a healthy profit, thereby insuring that their shareholders got a reasonable return on their investments All of the different corps I have worked for have expressed that the main purpose of the company was to "maximise shareholder value". That may involve making a better product. But the product is the means, not the end. I may be wrong about BigAssedRouterAndNetworking Co. Inc., but I suspect not. With this much manure around, there must be a pony somewhere.
Post #28,856 by hnick 2/18/02 6:14:49 PM Reply	Sadly, I believe you are correct. Twenty years ago, or so, when I was getting out of engineering school, they were a struggling router company. They focused on absolute quality in their product and nearly got their ass handed to them. Now they focus on customer satisfaction and were doing quite nicely until the economy went crunch. I stand by my statement that the avowed purpose is to make the shareholders profit. Producing a product pleasing to the buyers is the means. I still take professional pride in my contributions to the product and therefor the end product. When I can't take pride in my work, it's time to move on. Whores can be fickle that way... The focus IS changing from doing a thing right because fine craft is a good thing to doing a thing in the manner that will product the most profit. I can't help regarding the transition without a sense of loss. Regards, Hugh
Post #28,903 by jb4 2/19/02 9:48:38 AM Reply	Putting the cart before the horse One can also "maximize profits" throught stock market manipulation[Enron], "cooking the books"[Enron, Micros~1], illegal marketing practices[Enron, Micros~1], monopolization[Micros~1, IBM, AT&T], lobbying to hamstring or outright outlaw your competition[any NTSA body shop], fraud[the list is too long to put here],...or by making the best damn product at a reasonable price and competing fairly in an open marketplace[ ]. (Notice the size of that list...) hnick, I wasn't in BigAssedRoutersAndNetworks board room (or in their marketing dept, thank Ghod), but I sincerely doubt that BAR&N "nearly got their ass handed to them" simply because they "focused on absolute quality". There were other problems in their bizniss plan if they "nearly got their ass handed to them". Perhaps they "nearly got their ass handed to them" because they didn't give a rat's ass about customer satisfaction, or their prices were too high, or their routers were a pain in the ass to keep working, or whatever. Your premise is just too simplistic to be accurate. jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #29,036 by hnick 2/20/02 7:07:44 AM Reply	Ok, you have a point I've been with the company about 2 years since we were acquired. I have no idea what the business plan or products were like in the late 80's. My statement was a short version of what I was told during an indoctination speech immediately after the acquisition. Yeah, it's simplistic. Your point. Hugh
Post #28,872 by nking 2/18/02 9:28:36 PM Reply	Now this may sound silly but making the best product means jack squat if your company is not profitable. Hire some PHBs to "maximize profits" by getting rid of the people who made "quality products and services" and replace them with recent college graduates who will earn below average for their job positions and do a sloppy job at it. As long as the products works (somewhat) and the customers are happy (dmmit I'll teach you to be happy!) about the product and the stockholders earn tons of buckazoids, who gives a rat's ss if the product goes defective after the warranty expires or blows up in the customer's face? As in "Tommy Boy" 'I can sht into a box and write "guarantee" on it, but all that means is that I've given you a guaranteed piece of sht. Wouldn't you rather have a part that works and doesn't need a guarantee?' Making parts that last a lifetime only works for Maytag and Craftsman, the rest just can make it as sloppy as they can and then sell them another one later on. The more defective the better, just contract the helpdesk out to an India or Pakastan firm to handle the complaints. The more thick-accented phone operators, the better. Get some that don't even know how the product works, and just pawns the caller off to other companies, or place blame in other areas so your company isn't liable for anything. "Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Post #29,043 by jb4 2/20/02 9:27:45 AM Reply	And your point is...? Norm, even I'm having trouble following here. Are you being sarcastic, or are you purporting to explain the Corporate Mindset behind all Corporate Decisions made these days? And what is your point if either of these are true? (I know you're pissed and disillusioned, and with good reason. But remain focused, and you'll remain coherent. Remain coherent, and people will have to deal with you! ;-) ) jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #29,148 by nking 2/20/02 11:50:13 PM Reply	My point, dear JB, is that the Corporate System which most managers are using is basically fcked in the head. Even a 6 year old can run a better company that most managers out there. I am not sure what in the seven levels of Hll they teach them in college, but one thing is for sure that management does not know how to manage employees correctly, and end up abusing, harassing, and overworking them, etc. Ever notice when layoffs happen, the top management get to keep their jobs despite being the ones that allowed the mistakes to happen or that made the mistakes themselves? There is no responsibility amoung the top brass, and they just blame the people working too hard under them for management's own shortcommings. Our US Corp system needs a big overhaul and reorganization and reform is all I am saying. "Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Post #29,158 by rsf 2/21/02 2:05:38 AM Reply	Not necessarily true about layoffs in the upper management that is. One example: I was a low level developer at Yahoo until I got laid off this past December. I was one out of about 300 - 400 employees let go. After I left, I found out that some of mid-level managers that I knew were escorted out too later that day. And still later I noticed that senior executives were 'resigning' enmasse to 'spend time with family'. This past year we've seen the 'resignation' of most of executive management, including the CEO and COO. IMHO, I think the board is laying them off but allowing them to officially resign so as not to panic the stock holders. Ray
Post #29,365 by jb4 2/22/02 10:39:23 AM Reply	What you fail to mention... ..is that those "resignations" to "spend more time w/ their family" are, without exception, accompanied with "golden parachutes" equal to well over their salary for a year. What was in your golden parachute? (Yeah, It's really none of my damn bizniss; I'm just trying to make a point. Norm is correct on this point...) jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #29,398 by rsf 2/22/02 1:38:29 PM Reply	I know, I know... my parachute wasn't golden but it was enough to carry me through (3 months pay up front) until I got my next job. Since I started interviewing before the lay offs - I new odds were against me - and got a new job about 1.5 months later, I ended up fattening my bank account a little instead of taking a loss. As for the execs at Yahoo that left, I don't think their parachutes mattered much to them anyway as most of them got rich from their stock options long before. Most of those guys had salaries in the $100-300k range but cashed out tens or hundredes of millions in options from '98-'00. When you're that rich, I think the power and prestige of being a CEO or co. president is more of a lure than the base salary. I think both Norm and I are right. It's just our perspectives are different. Norm worked for a horrible company, a sweat shop. Yahoo did their best to make the situation tolerable. Everyone got severence pay and a continuation of medical insurance. They paid for one-on-one job counselling with Spherion (it really helped too!). There were no guards to escort people out; I had time to go say 'goodbye' to friends that remained, get my last free mocha, and steal some office supplies. My manager called some of his friends at other companies to setup interviews. The vp of my division came by to apologize for not being able to keep me on (Incidentally, my vp's boss was let go too). And so on. Ray
Post #29,460 by nking 2/22/02 10:23:37 PM Reply	At the very least your former company helped you to get a job. I couldn't even get my former employer to reconmend me to anyone, and not say anything beyond that I worked for them on the dates that I worked. "Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
Post #29,045 by jb4 2/20/02 9:28:37 AM Reply	And your point is...? Norm, even I'm having trouble following here. Are you being sarcastic, or are you purporting to explain the Corporate Mindset behind all Corporate Decisions made these days? And what is your point if either of these are true? (I know you're pissed and disillusioned, and with good reason. But remain focused, and you'll remain coherent. Remain coherent, and people will have to deal with you! ;-) ) jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)

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