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New Sounds reasonable to me
In fact, I'd have doubled that and revoked the licence.

When you consider that, at a mere 35 mph, your stopping distance in *dry* weather goes up by 20 feet as compared to 30 mph (triple that for wet weather), 46mph is near as fuck it murder waiting to happen.

SLOW DOWN.


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Oh, I dunno
15 over the limit sounds about right to me....

(but then, I live in the Chicagoland area....)
jb4
(Resistance is not futile...)
New you dont drive do you. :)
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
New No.
Does that alter the fact that driving just 5mph over a 30 mph limit makes you (a) stop 20 ft slower and (b) more than 75% probable to kill anyone you hit?

I get very tired of drivers who think they are somehow immune to the laws of physics. Speed kills. Speed kills in built-up areas like nothing else.

It's preventable. And that pisses me off.


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Doesn't alter the fact.
But if you were to drive the same boring road day after day you might at least get an understanding of why some people do go over the speed limit.

It's just that "I don't drive but I know you're doing the wrong thing" tweaks me. Despite the fact that yes, you're quite right.

The use of speed cameras as revenue raisers rather than safety enhancers annoys me. (ie they always seem to be placed on long straight flat roads rather than twisty, hazardous roads). It sometimes feels like more money goes into catching speeding drivers than goes into making the roads safer.

I am not defending speeding. Yes, it kills people. No, I don't speed. But the recent blanket reduction of speed limits in suburbs, from 60 to 50 kmh, is a pain. Judging by the number of cars that sit right on my tail as I drive along at 50, I'm not alone in that thought. It doesn't make me right, but similarly it doesn't fill my heart with joy. Especially when there are rumblings of reducing it to 40.

Better qualify all this by saying I'm not a bitter old man who has had too many speeding tickets in the past. Haven't had any. (he said, thereby jinxing himself :) )
On and on and on and on,
and on and on and on goes John.
New How do you think the Police make their money?
Besides taxing us, they also collect a lot of money for speeding and traffic tickets. They have a quota to meet. Funny, they don't get a quota of bad guys to catch in a day, just for traffic tickets? Leave the crack houses alone, and go pester them citizens that go 5 MPH over the limit or forget to turn on their blinkers.

"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
New They drive like maniacs near me
I am afraid to drive on the highways. It seems the repeat offenders hardly ever get caught. I've often wondered how they ever got their license driving like that, my Uncle told me that they must have had a brother or sister or someone that looked like them take the driving test and written test for them.

I had a web site up at Tripos on St. Louis Driving rules, but Tripos seems to be having a permissions problem after Lycos bought them out?

Here it is, unless the HTML gets mangled up somehow:


1. A right lane construction closure is just a game to see how many people can cut in line by passing you on the right as you sit in the left lane waiting for the same jerks to squeeze their way back in before hitting the orange construction barrels.

2. Turn signals are clues as to your next move. A real St. Louis driver never uses them.

3. Under no circumstances should you leave a safe distance between you and the car in front of you or the space will be filled in by somebody else putting you in an even more dangerous situation.

4. Crossing two or more lanes in a single lane change is considered "going with the flow."

5. The faster you drive through a red light, the smaller the chance you have of getting hit.

6. Never get in the way of a older car that needs extensive body work. Missouri is a no-fault insurance state and the other guy doesn't have anything to lose.

7. Braking is to be done as hard and late as possible to ensure that your ABS kicks in giving a nice relaxing foot massage as the brake pedal pulsates. For those of you without ABS, it's a chance to stretch your legs.

8. Construction signs tell you about road closures immediately after you pass the last exit before the traffic begins to back up.

9. The new electronic traffic warning system signs are not there to provide useful information. They are only there to make St. Louis look high-tech and to distract you from seeing the St Louis County police car parked in the median.

10. Never pass on the left when you can pass on the right. It's a good way to
scare people entering the highway.

11. Speed limits are arbitrary figures, given only as suggestions and apparently not enforceable in the metro area during rush hour.

12. Just because you're in the left lane and have no room to speed up or move over doesn't mean that a St Louis driver flashing his high beams behind you doesn't think he can go faster in your spot.

13. Please remember that there is no such thing as a shortcut during rush-hour traffic in St Louis.

14. Always slow down and be a lookee-loo when you see an accident or even someone changing a tire.

15. Throwing litter on the roads adds variety to the landscape, keeps the existing litter from getting lonely and gives Adopt-a-highway crews something to clean up.

16. Everybody thinks their vehicle is better than yours, (especially pickup truck drivers with stickers of Calvin peeing on a Ford, Dodge or Chevy logo.)

17. Learn to swerve abruptly. St Louis is the home of high-speed slalom driving thanks to MoDOT (Missouri Dept. of Transportation), which puts potholes in key locations to test drivers'; reflexes and keep them on their toes.

18. It is traditional in St Louis to honk your horn at cars that don't move the
instant the light changes.

19. Seeking eye contact with another driver revokes your right of way.

20. Never take a green light at face value. Always look right and left before
proceeding.

21. Heavy snow, ice, fog, and rain are no reasons to change any of the previously listed rules. These weather conditions are God's way of ensuring a natural selection process for body shops, junkyards, and new vehicle sales. After all, we do have our priorities.

22. Remember that the goal of every St Louis driver is to get there first, by whatever means necessary.

23. Real St. Louis women drivers can put on pantyhose and apply eye makeup at 75 miles per hour in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Real St. Louis men drivers can remove pantyhose and a bra at 75 miles per hour in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

----------------Ladies & Gentlemen.....START YOUR ENGINES!!!

"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
New The difference between St. Louis & Chicago
would be most apparent in the following modification (in italics of iterm #11:

11. Speed limits are arbitrary figures, given only as suggestions and apparently not approachable in the metro area during rush hour.
jb4
(Resistance is not futile...)
New Heh, a lot refers to Sydney as well :)
Well, after swapping left and right around, anyway.

Red-light cameras have pretty much put a stop to #5, thankfully.

#6 works! I've borrowed my Dads old Kingswood sometimes, and it's like parting the red sea or something.

#14 is my primary annoyance on the roads.

#20, however, is more like "The Green light isn't there to regulate the flow of traffic, it's there just so you can floor it, be the first, and show all the other drivers you're compensating for a very small willy." Guess it ties in with #22.

Sydney needs a #24, something like "Remember, it is your obligation to be talking on your mobile phone at all times. It takes priority over sundry activities like indicating, or looking where you're going. The only looking you should do is for police cars, so you don't get booked"

John, who shouts "Get off the phone, ya dickhead!" more often than is probably advisable.
New Re: Sydney drivers r pretty good these days - tis the K1W1s

that are a bloody menace to life & limb.

New Zealand drivers are pathetic (I know cos I wos one) - funny thing is that each time I visit NZ I revert to the aggressive mad driving style so common there yet when I get back to Sydney I am happy to be polite & wait (except I do get realllllyyyy pissed at those bastards who drive in a T2 or T3 lane in Sydney during peak hours, with only one person in the car - I am guilty of giving intense British 2-fingered salutes to them.

(T2 & T3 lanes mandate that during peak hours there must be 2 (T2) or 3 (T3) passengers in a vehicle using that lane. Purpose is to encourage vehicle sharing. 'cept some Aussies are just rude drivers & ignore the signs (not enough police to enforce them).

Cheers

Doug (now in HK where I don't know what a car is :-)
New In Thailand it is much worse
they have a lot of "agressive" drivers. Even the Tuk Tuks cars/carts.

"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
New Speed Limits
In the interest of full disclosure: Yes, I speed, in some circumstances. I do NOT speed in residential areas or shopping districts, and only very rarely in places where lots of people are working.

Speed limits are arbitrary numbers set up to ensure that there are some minimum number of violators, so as to keep revenues up.

Yes, at any given speed, an increase of n mph increases the probability of an accident by x percent, and the seriousness of the accident by y percent. The relation is fundamentally a square, because of the momentum involved. We who drive calculate that probability [very optimistically, I'm afraid] and balance it against the "goodness" of getting there more quickly. If you're not willing to make that tradeoff, then any nonzero speed is "too dangerous".

Last week I traveled over 1400 miles. At 50 mph that would have taken 28 hours; at 70 it took 20 -- clear profit of eight hours, since I didn't hit anything. Please note that that eight hours profit was not accrued just to me -- my companion received the same benefit, and (if it's true that I'm providing a useful service to the economy) so did the economy as a whole, in that that eight hours was available to the world in general as work time from me.

Sadly enough, there are a lot of people who also speed in non-highway conditions: neighborhoods, parking lots, dense business areas. The clearest proof that the assertion I opened with is there, too. Find a cop in a neighborhood, especially a poor one with kids playing in the street. Find a cop patrolling the tiltups. It's a useful exercise to have an accident in a residential neighborhood. If you want a cop there in less than two hours, about the only way is to get a neighbor to report that somebody has a gun.

If "speed limits" equaled "safety" then the police would concentrate their efforts on construction zones, residential neighborhoods, and busy shopping areas. Instead, in the United States at least, the place you'll find them is on nice, long, straight stretches, the flatter and less traveled the better, with their radars out. Stretches where the posted speed limit is at least ten MPH below the rational one, so as to maximize their take. And if the traffic density rises above a certain point they disappear. At eight AM you can travel as fast as you like on Airport Freeway in Fort Worth -- there won't be a cop within two blocks, because it's dangerous out there; the result is that the "flow" occurs at around seventy. But at ten PM, keep it below sixty -- they'll ticket you for five over, because there's nobody around for them to dodge. There's also the small town I have to travel through occasionally. The town is newly incorporated, and wants to make its mark on the world, so they cut the limit on a country road by ten MPH and bought a new police car. People have noticed, I assure you.

And the worst part is -- scofflawing on those grounds gets overgeneralized. The State of Virginia has some of the stupidest speed limits I've seen -- way too fast in residential neighborhoods and shopping districts, way too slow on the Interstate -- and the police are all concentrated on the Interstate. It's real easy for a driver to look at the artificially low, revenue-generating limit on the Interstate and say, "Well, that's full of shit. How much of the rest [of the regulations] is full of shit too?"

Funny thing, too. I'm a middle-aged white male, and when I'm speeding I'm usually in a van that looks businesslike. I've been stopped, but not very often -- and it's common for me to see drivers being stopped who were traveling at about my speed, or less. Remarkable that they all tend to be (1) young, (2) black or hispanic, and (3) driving nice cars, eh?

Another funny thing. Here in Texas, a few years ago, most of the speed traps just disappeared. Even Estelline! I couldn't figure it out. Turns out they'd changed the law about speeding fines -- most of the money now goes to the State, who dole it out according to the population of the town or county. Truly remarkable how "unsafe" speeds suddenly became "safe" when there wasn't as much profit in it.

Many States have differential speed limits for heavy vehicles. Cars 65 or 70, trucks 50 or 55. I know of no state that enforces those differential limits -- we certainly don't here. The reason for that is left as an exercise for the student, but it's one of the really big places where the "that's full of shit" reaction occurs.

So no, speeding itself isn't malum in se. In most places it's barely malum prohibitorum -- mostly it's finding ways to pay of the JP's new Cadillac. And if you don't drive regularly, you'll probably wind up being real impressed by the speeches in council about "improving the safety on the roads" by setting up roadblocks. It's a nice way to cut your tax burden, isn't it?
Regards,
Ric
New Geeks on speed
I think Ric and I have similar driving habits.

In my summer's travels (~8,000 miles, all range of conditions, cross country and then some), I probably drove a good 4,000 miles in excess of 75 MPH. I know my truck tops out just over 100 MPH on the flat, and comfortable speed ranges to 85-95 in good conditions. I'll make good time on good roads in light traffic. I found that slowing down through urban areas tends to reduce the threat profile of speeding tickets (the cops don't like being out in the boonies either), as does staying off the Interstates. I've had a grand total of four speeding tickets in sixteen years of driving.

My view on speed laws is this: speed is a readily measured, easily assessed, metric. It's far easier to determine that a vehicle is speeding than if the driver is drunk, stoned, tired, or too ill to drive. Than if the vehicle has bad brakes, busted pollution controls, or other mechanical deficit. Than that the driver's been tailgating, changing lanes without signalling, engaging in distracting activities (tallking on a mobile, eating, dressing, applying make-up, shaving, having sex). The Texas funding change is an interesting one -- I strongly suspect that if the revenue link disappeared, so would most speed traps.

I also feel very strongly about slowing down through pedestrian areas, regardless of posted limits. No mean feat on US 50 through the midwest, where it seems like the towns come every five or six miles (almost European scale). And particularly around residential areas near where I'm at.

The street I've lived on for the past two and a half years parallels a congested portion of El Camino Real in Menlo Park. It's a block from the Menlo PD, but still gets a fair number of high-speed vehicles (it's a 25 MPH zone). There is a school at one end, a church at the other, two blind junctions mid-way, apartments and houses the length, with seniors, kids, pets, cyclists, and a fair pedestrian flow. As I was getting into my truck one night a month back, I heard and saw a car accelerating rapidly up the street...so I stood in its path (and yes, I'd have dodged if he hadn't slowed down). Turns out the driver was an (off-duty) cop. I exchanged a few words with him, he was somewhat combative, I reported the incident. Fun little exercise.

There's a bit of sanity returning to speed laws. The lifting of the 55 MPH limit is one of the best things to happen. I also think that the constant irritant of a law which quite obviously can't be effectively enforced leads to a more general contempt of law, harmful in the long run. At the very least, we become legal relativists "breaking this law isn't so bad", and laws be come arbitrary "we've got something to hang you with should we need it".
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
[link|http://kmself.ix.netcom.com/|[link|http://kmself.ix.netcom.com/|http://kmself.ix.netcom.com/]]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Houston is in its own little world
Right before the first of this year, the paper and TV newscasts announced how the state and/or surrounding counties were cutting speed limits on major highways from 60 to 70 DOWN TO 55. Why......?

TO CUT EMISSIONS THAT CAUSE AIR POLLUTION!

I kid you not - that was the announced reason to reduce the speed limit .

Can someone explain it to a dimwit like me how driving slower, not counting traffic jams from the morning and evening rush hours, is supposed to reduce air pollution?
BConnors
"Prepare for metamorphosis. Ready, Kafka?"
New here's something
[link|http://www.nsta.org/Energy/fn_speedlimits.html|Facts about speed limits]

Scroll down a bit to "Pollution" and you'll find

Other things being equal, going slower produces less pollution ... just 10% of the cars generate half the polution from mobile sources. The \ufffdgross emitters\ufffd are improperly tuned or lack catalytic converters.

If that 10% generating 50% is true then it seems to me that emisions testing would do a lot towards cutting down on the pollution. A few years back we had emissions testing in Houston, but it was stopped because it "penalized the poor" - even though they'd let a car pass if the owner spent at least $100 in an attempt to make it complient (ie: give the car a tune up).

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

New Pretty simplistic dismissal
of a most complex matter: the infinite assortment of peoples' reasons for driving, the time aspects and especially; the way in which skill reduces the probability of error. It isn't just about physics - and even if it were, some like to sky-dive and some are fearful of own shadow. Few live a life dedicated 24/7 to maximizing 'safety' or even longevity! (Well.. there Are Economists, of course ;-)

If you don't drive, you cannot be aware of the very great differences in skill and especially: of discrimination. Part of that last is, as others in the thread have expanded - reserving higher speeds for areas appropriate to them. (I believe motorcycles inculcate this discrimination much faster and better than cars, which give especially the incompetents, a quite false sense of security).

Above all - higher speed demands higher *Attention. IMhO, it is inattention at the root of most (non-drugged) so-called 'accidents'. This even before general incompetence. And sloth.

* anecdote: it's said that when Juan Manuel Fangio, a legendary road racer - rode with ordinary drivers, he would often exclaim, Attention !! .. as he noticed a situation developing, before the average driver would. Maybe annoying - but at least he didn't die at hands of a distracted incompetent either.

At any rate - the topic is too large for such a digital slogan. But I'll give you: yes, there are (too) many who drive faster than their earned level of competence. YAN manifestation of creeping dumbth. Dumbth: #1 killer by all 'means'.


Ashton

PS - Speed DOES NOT kill: G-force of deceleration + local (penetrating) force/unit-area into bodies - kills. Some situations on road are best evaded by acceleration than braking, skidding while braking .. yada yada. It's an art form, living under physics Rulez.
New Needless distinction
IMhO, it is inattention at the root of most (non-drugged) so-called 'accidents'.

No need to make the distinction. If you are drugged, you don't have sufficient attention to pay. Just another route to the same problem, IMO.
We have to fight the terrorists as if there were no rules and preserve our open society as if there were no terrorists. -- [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/opinion/BIO-FRIEDMAN.html|Thomas Friedman]
New First you make an annoying assumption that Americans
understand basic math:) In a residential zone 35 in a 30 can be dangerous which is why you teach children and pedestrians that these people will run you over. In parking lots I have seen the tire chirpers going from 0 - 30 when 10 is excessive. I tell my kids "look out those old people cant see you!" because cars and pedestrians dont mix. Most people are blissfully ignorant of how little it takes to kill someone in a vehicle and are so remorseful when they do. It is considered a fact of life here just like smoking is dangerous and some of us do anyway. So if you ever visit over this way assume all drivers are drunk and looking to kill you specifically and you will be ok. Thats the way I look at other drivers and Im still here.
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
New tire chirpers?
Biggest belly laugh I've had this week.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Whenever I hear one o' those chirps
I silently beseech Great Hastur and Cthulhu to cause that miscreant's transmission to drop noisily to the ground.. while bumping along the underbody, amidst great gnashing, wailing and -- Oh.. Shit !!s.

(Could happen)






Ashton the Intolerant
New Aha!
"... assume all drivers are drunk and looking to kill you specifically and you will be ok."

Do we have another motorcyclist, or potential motorcyclist, here?

I've a very little experience on two-wheelers, but that was enough to learn the Basic Rule Of Motorcycle Riding: All automobile drivers are homicidal maniacs who will seek you out and run you down if you give them the chance. It's also a useful mantra when you're driving anything lighter than, say, an M1A1.

I said in my previous post that I try hard to keep it down in pedestrian areas, and I do, but once in a while I look at my wife, look back at the traffic, and say, "Well, honey, it's time to pretend I'm in Mexico City again." She closes her eyes as a rule.
Regards,
Ric
New naw got a right wrist problem
keeps curling and twisting every time I get on one of the dang things. Got tired of picking gravel out of my legs after taking sharp turns at speed off of pavement to dirt roads.
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
     $103,000 speeding ticket for 46 mph in a 31 mph zone - (SpiceWare) - (39)
         Sounds reasonable to me - (pwhysall) - (21)
             Oh, I dunno - (jb4)
             you dont drive do you. :) -NT - (boxley) - (19)
                 No. - (pwhysall) - (18)
                     Doesn't alter the fact. - (Meerkat) - (1)
                         How do you think the Police make their money? - (nking)
                     They drive like maniacs near me - (nking) - (4)
                         The difference between St. Louis & Chicago - (jb4)
                         Heh, a lot refers to Sydney as well :) - (Meerkat) - (2)
                             Re: Sydney drivers r pretty good these days - tis the K1W1s - (dmarker2) - (1)
                                 In Thailand it is much worse - (nking)
                     Speed Limits - (Ric Locke) - (3)
                         Geeks on speed - (kmself) - (2)
                             Houston is in its own little world - (bconnors) - (1)
                                 here's something - (SpiceWare)
                     Pretty simplistic dismissal - (Ashton) - (1)
                         Needless distinction - (drewk)
                     First you make an annoying assumption that Americans - (boxley) - (4)
                         tire chirpers? - (wharris2) - (1)
                             Whenever I hear one o' those chirps - (Ashton)
                         Aha! - (Ric Locke) - (1)
                             naw got a right wrist problem - (boxley)
         But was it a "real" 31 mph zone? - (wharris2) - (16)
             It was in Finland, and based on his income in 1999 - (nking) - (15)
                 Re: It was in Finland, and based on his income in 1999 - (wharris2) - (14)
                     Is that like income-based income tax? :) -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                     That's bullshit, Will. - (CRConrad) - (12)
                         Re: Gotta agree on this 'un - (dmarker2)
                         Bullshit my ass - (wharris2) - (10)
                             Re: It really is relative - (dmarker2)
                             Yes, your ass, then - 'cos it is. - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                 perhaps a loss of driving privileges would serve as well? - (boxley) - (7)
                                     Yes, but then again, it wasn't all *that* bad; only speeding - (CRConrad) - (6)
                                         However eminently sensible is this sliding scale.. - (Ashton) - (3)
                                             Licence Demerit Points. - (Meerkat) - (2)
                                                 Yes, CA has that too - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                     mind your L's and P's - (Meerkat)
                                         On the sliding scale - (wharris2) - (1)
                                             OK! -NT - (CRConrad)

What. He. Said.
170 ms