Post #222,712
9/4/05 5:20:12 AM
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78% Kerry
[link|http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004//pages/results/states/LA/P/00/county.001.html#22071|http://www.cnn.com/E...ty.001.html#22071]
--
Chris Altmann
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Post #222,713
9/4/05 6:24:10 AM
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Oooh good source - thanks.
.. and surrounded by all those inverse results.
US Govt. would 't have left N.O. hung out to dry becau
Naaaah.
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Post #222,722
9/4/05 12:13:00 PM
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Go ahead.
We've already been told by rap stars that George hates black people.
It must be true.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,748
9/4/05 3:14:39 PM
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Yeah, they said that about Strom Thrurmond too
And we all know that was Wrong!
(He jes loves the lil white folks [but not teh po-white-trash so much, mind you!] a tad more.)
Are you a confusin the race-card with the $class-card again? or is the velocity-of-money obscuring both. Again?
(Sometimes we jes gotta figure out what really IS a intensifyin this here US race-to-the-bottom, in damn near every category.. mebbe after weunses have checked off a handful o' the little things that - AIN'T?)
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Post #222,863
9/5/05 2:17:10 AM
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Sure.
Obfuscate to protect the racist.
Or do you >actually< have a doubt about this?
>That< would be sad.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,867
9/5/05 3:03:51 AM
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Well, Strom did plenty of obfuscating . . .
. . but never denied his black daughter and provided money and support for her from childhood through college. He was also one of the first Congressmen to hire a black aid. I doubt W would have half that integrity.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #222,902
9/5/05 12:17:52 PM
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So this justifies West's racism how, exactly?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,904
9/5/05 12:26:36 PM
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Side comment only - justifies nothing.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #222,911
9/5/05 12:50:21 PM
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Sorry, the type of behavior demonstrated by the young man
really gets under my skin.
And the fact that so many are willing to give it a pass (and worse that many aspiring to power share the behavior) seriously offends me.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,750
9/4/05 3:22:23 PM
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No, that's not what he said
he said he doesn't care about them. That's far from the same thing.
AFATG, I think Kanye West has it slightly wrong. It's more accurate to say that he doesn't care much about poor people, and perhaps cares a little less if they're not white.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #222,864
9/5/05 2:19:25 AM
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Is it?
And is what you say any better. Your's is, at least, not a racist comment.
His was.
He is, without a doubt, more racist than the man he accuses of being a racist.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,866
9/5/05 2:56:43 AM
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I just checked
He said "George Bush doesn't care about black people." That's from multiple sources, including a video clip of it that I watched myself.
I think maybe your politics are getting in the way for you.
FWIW, and from what I've seen about the overall way this administration has worked over the last few years, I tend to side more with West than I do with Bush, myself. Furthermore, I don't see how saying that makes him a racist.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #222,901
9/5/05 12:16:29 PM
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And that statement is less racist, how?
Does the quote need to be that accurate?
He gets dispensation because he's black, I suppose, so when he sees things first as a matter of color he gets a pass. Its only when white folk do it that its racist.
Is that it?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,917
9/5/05 1:51:30 PM
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Emphatic disagreement
I see what he said about George Bush as a factual claim. I also think that it is one that is probably true.
If someone were to say that Jesse Jackson is a hypocrite who always play the race card first, I'd also see that as a factual claim that is probably true.
In both cases the form is the same, we're identifying a specific person and saying that this specific person has a specific opinion. In both cases the person has plenty of public actions from which one can judge him, and it is possible to form an opinion.
Now it would be racist to say that white folk don't care about black folk. What makes that racist is that you're generalizing about an entire group based on their race. It would also be racist to make a comment like that about an individual which you knew nothing about. It would also be racist to make that comment about an individual whose public record provides ample evidence to the contrary - for instance saying the same thing about Bill Clinton. Or saying that about Bush with "black" replaced by "hispanic".
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #222,921
9/5/05 2:28:55 PM
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Exactly
When one makes a statement the subject of which is a race, the statement is necessarily racist. However, the subject in this case was an individual.
Further, let's not forget the distinction between racism and bigotry.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #222,938
9/5/05 3:43:27 PM
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Disagree all you like
Point to specific instances, not public policy, where GW or any President for that matter, has demonstrated the >specific charge< in this accusation. No, you >infer< based on your specific interpretation of policy. Yet you DO NOT KNOW HIM.
I say no, simply no. Mr West demonstrated a complete lack of understand and a completely racist attitude but saying simply "He doesn't care about black people". Not, he has demonstrated this by blah blah blah or he spit on this black woman in AL blah blah blah. No, he simply, based on his worldly view, says Mr Pres doesn't like (oops...sorry..."care about") black people.
The cracker. (hrm. thats a factual statement too)
You can be as emphatic as you want in your disagreement. Your statement "It would also be racist to make a comment like that about an individual which you knew nothing about." pretty much counters your own argument.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,939
9/5/05 3:44:16 PM
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He's most definitely not a cracker
Not from the right part of the US, for starters...
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #223,058
9/6/05 4:48:07 AM
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I'll point to something specific
The documented policies supported by Bush's family that attempt to systematically disenfranchise black voters. An effort that definitely was necessary to swing the 2000 election, and sure didn't hurt in 2004. While I admit that it is easier to put Jeb's name on those actions, I find it virtually impossible to believe that George's opinion differs.
Of course the fact that blacks vote overwhelmingly against Bush doesn't give him any cause to love them...
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #223,182
9/6/05 3:56:10 PM
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Interesting counterpoint to...
...the fact that GWB has the most racially and ethnically diverse cabinet in history.
Strange about him picking so many if he hates them (oh, sorry, doesn't care for them).
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,193
9/6/05 4:19:47 PM
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Point missed again: it's the Poor Ones as fly well under his
Compassion-Radar; it's a Packard-Bell model, BTW: he got it for a present, in the 8th grade - but never turned it On. (He may be quite egalitarian in his poor eyesight/noticing of actual People below the CIEIO or Contributor classes.)
Wanna do a Net Worth on his 'selections'? That should be right up your #alley# (possibly your only alley of perusal that doesn't sport cobwebs from disuse.)
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Post #223,227
9/6/05 6:35:23 PM
9/6/05 6:36:23 PM
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BeeP calculus:
one black cabinet member == "GWB has the most racially and ethnically diverse cabinet in history."
And if you can have one person that fils two check boxes, all the better.
Rather cynical, doncha think?
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
Edited by jb4
Sept. 6, 2005, 06:36:23 PM EDT
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Post #223,251
9/6/05 8:28:41 PM
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Methinks you've lost count.
But thats ok. It won't fit your agenda.
Lets see now...
Interior - Woman
Ag - Woman
Labor - Chinese Woman
Trans - Japanese American
HUD - Cuban American
State - Black Man followed by Black Woman
Education - Black Male
Rice - NSA Chief - Black Female (see above DOS)
If you are counting as MWBE...he has 14 spots and 8 are filed with qualifiers. 3 of key members...and 20% of his picks were BLACK.
Now I suppose they don't count because "they aren't really black?"
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,268
9/6/05 8:52:47 PM
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There is no education cabinet minister
You're probably thinking of Alphonso Jackson, HUD secretary.
You're right that Condi and Alphonso are black. Colin Powell looks far more white than black to me, it is only in a society as screwed up about race as ours that we'd call him black.
Both appointments suggest to me that Bush cares more about personal loyalty than anything else. Which fits with my previous comment about generalizations.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #223,287
9/6/05 10:09:38 PM
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No, there's a Dept of Education
and Paige was appointed Sec.
He is most certainly a black man. Less doubt than you apparently have in your mind thatn Mr Powell, who I'm certain would disagree with your assessment of him as a "nearly white guy".
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,324
9/7/05 1:23:14 AM
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There seems to be a miscommunication or three
I thought that you were trying to support [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=223182|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=223182], which is a claim about Bush's cabinet. Which leaves me puzzled about why you would think that a non-cabinet appointment was relevant.
Similarly I wasn't exactly claiming that Colin Powell was almost a white guy. In our society, he clearly is going to run into attitudes that give him a shared experience with many blacks. He is going to encounter lots of racism. In our society, he's a black.
However I claim, and stand by the claim, that in a sane society he should be considered white. If you care to disagree, then take a look at his picture in a racially mixed group. Furthermore I claim that this gives him an advantage over other blacks when dealing with people with moderate levels of racism.
But our society is not sane. So he's black.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #223,332
9/7/05 2:34:38 AM
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Yes, was looking for ~ those words; especially re 'sane'.
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Post #223,342
9/7/05 3:32:34 AM
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Ummmmmm . . . . . can you point me to . . .
. . an example of a "sane" society? I mean among humans.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #223,391
9/7/05 10:23:30 AM
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Ok
I misspoke in that prior post.My mistake.
Cabinet and Dept level appointments. It is in this area where Bush's record is better than any other in history.
But I appear to be discussing this with someone who has their mind made up, so there isn't much point.
The state election boards put out lists of "disenfranchised" voters that contained errors. Those errors were predominantly people of color. I'm sure that GWB personally selected those names so he would get elected, since he doesn't care for them.
(In case you haven't noticed, none of this changes the identification of the >real< racist that started this discussion.)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,505
9/7/05 5:39:14 PM
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Can not let This sleeping-dog er.. Lie:
In between fits of uncontrolled snorting ..
In these yere parts, I'd deem that the most visibly-non-attached (to present cached jelloware ""data"") in these parts -- that prize would have to go ~ to Ben or A. Scott. Soitenly: not to thee, the Anti-malleable.
It would take some counter-""data"" to do this of course, as it appears that both rank things fairly methodically along the line,
Dunno-shit----Umm---------Maybe------Hmmm!-----Ah believes - sorta. Till next.
You OTOH, persist in a deplenerated form of prissy WDYHASMs, in such nonsequiturs as -
I'm sure that GWB personally selected those names so he would get elected, since he doesn't care for them.
Going with the notion of 'racist' ~= an irrational visceral despising, within the shrunken brain of a sociopathic-tending carbon unit?
-VS-
just. not. caring. (selectively or more generalized, maybe unto a whole class?)
The first connotes sociopathy.
The second connotes, Compassion-disorder. + extreme Bizness-->\ufffd focus. Same thing?
They are NOT "equivalent phrases", Mr. RoveApologist.
HTH
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Post #223,523
9/7/05 6:36:35 PM
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Difference?
Funny that.
Not surprised to see a very large double-standard at play. Not surprised at all.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,533
9/7/05 7:05:04 PM
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Vying for Mr. Objective Morality #2, here? with marlowe..
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Post #223,541
9/7/05 7:39:55 PM
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Feel free...
to stop the ad hominem comments any time you want.
I've already demonstrated that my opinion is more nuanced than you expected it to be. Perhaps after a few more rounds you'll realize that it got that way because I'm more open-minded than you're giving me credit for.
About your >real< racist comment, you say that as if there is only one real racist. Identify that one, and the rest are obviously not really racists. Unfortunately there is racism enough to go around - on all sides. Now I don't know enough about the person who first accused the President to say whether or not he is a racist. I'm defending the comment, not the speaker. If you have evidence that the person who said that is a racist, feel free to come up with it. You might find me very easily convinced.
And finally (out of order I know), we come to the question of the disenfranchised voters. We both know that it is absurd to suggest that GWB personally selected that list. Even were it not absurd, there is enough documentation to clearly disprove that. According to my memory, the list was produced by a company named ChoicePoint by rules drawn up by Jeb Bush's office. Rules drawn up and pushed by his office despite the fact that there were multiple court orders saying that they couldn't do this. George Bush was so upset by this turn of events that he had ChoicePoint draw up the no fly list. You know, the one that had Ted Kennedy's name on it.
While there is such a thing as plausible deniability, at some point the denials become implausible. While I can't prove that George personally knows and approves of this policy, I do not believe that this happened without the knowledge and approval of his administration. I further believe that if George were informed of the full details (assuming that he isn't intimately familiar with them already), that he wouldn't exactly object.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #223,543
9/7/05 7:48:37 PM
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couple of swings at the choice point ball if you please
Choice Point is a database design consultancy. They drew up the list under the criteria given to them by Jeb et al. They were asked to create a list of felons, without dob race or social security numbers even though they requested to include those. The list went to elected officials of each county to either use or not to prevent felons from voting because a certain political party who shall remain nameless was signing up voters in the county jails on the east side of the state. Chances were good that some of those incarcerated were felons. Some county officials in the west side of the state gleefully began striking voters as fast as they could. In Miami, they roundfiled the list.
Yes shenanigans all around but the company could have been bill and ben conslutants and we could have offshored the work to CRC. Choice point got the product out in time and under budget, shrub seeing the success his brother had with getting what he ordered used the same crew (with appropriate grease no doubt) if Ted Kennedy is a name on the no fly chances are there was a Ted Kennedy visiting the maze prison in eirland in the past 30 years. Once again no DOB was to be provided.
Lets keep the blame focused shall we, not on the companies but the companions.
thanx.
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #223,552
9/7/05 8:05:18 PM
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Well said.
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Post #223,599
9/7/05 11:04:30 PM
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If you want...
I don't know what the Democrats may or may not have done in the east of the state. Regardless of what happened there, the abuse that they were doing is far exceeded by the abuse that the Republicans did.
There is no question that ChoicePoint did what they were asked to do by Jeb. However the instructions that they were given were clearly going to produce a list of "felons" that was going to be mostly black, and mostly not felons. Which is indeed what they got.
You're right that in the 2004 election, some counties applied the list and some did not. However in the 2000 election, the ones who did not apply the list were a distinct minority.
The estimate that I've seen is that if that list had only contained real felons, Gore would have won handily. Heck, if they just eliminated the "felons" on the list for which they didn't have a date of conviction, or had one in the future, Gore would have still won.
Of course if they didn't block the felons who were convicted in states that reinstate your right to vote (these people legally can vote in Florida, no matter what local law says about convicted felons), then Gore would have had a much nicer margin still. This group of felons is particularly interesting - 2000 was not the first year that they were barred, and therefore was not the first year that the State of Florida wound up in court about the issue and wound up ordered to allow them to vote. As in previous years (and as happened again in 2004), these court orders were ignored.
Of course there were plenty of other election shenanigans that cost even more black votes than the ChoicePoint nonsense, but ChoicePoint is widely publicized so I'm using it as an example. Plus it is a case that is particularly well litigated, the fact that the process continues to be abused at this point cannot possibly be due to ignorance on anyone's part. The system is broken. Is known to be broken. And the people running the system intend for it to stay that way, no matter minor details such as the legality of the matter.
Now I'm sure that you have some reason why this illegal purge should be treated as a minor offense. I'd love to hear it.
Cheers,
Ben
PS My personal opinion is that Florida should simplify affairs by joining over 2/3 of the Union and returning the right to vote to a felon once the sentence has been served. But that is just me.
PPS If you'll note, I was not blaming ChoicePoint for the mess as much as the Bush family...
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #223,624
9/8/05 1:29:56 AM
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You can be open minded.
And are.
I am not so prone to forgiving Mr West's offense (however cute or comical you may think it was) based on some invented rational, however.
Not much point in discussing further, though. You're discussing a completely different subject at this point which really isn't going to change my opinion on Mr. West's actions.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,629
9/8/05 2:37:15 AM
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Let's go back to that comment then, shall we?
I just read a [link|http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2005/09/02/kanyeWestAtTheNbcConcertForHurricaneKatrinaRelief.html|transcript] of his offensive comment. Now I haven't seen much of the TV coverage for obvious reasons. Therefore I don't know whether the media was indeed biasing their comments as West described. However the 10 minutes or so that I watched in the lunch room at work did indeed fit his description. That may be coincidence. I don't know.
His comment that they've given them permission to shoot at us was, however, clearly out of line.
But the comment that we've been discussing is what he said about George Bush. Whatever we might think about the preceeding rant, I don't think that that was a racist comment. In fact I agree with his sentiments. (Even though I'm not about to stand up on national TV and say it.)
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #223,643
9/8/05 8:48:00 AM
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And so all is forigiven.
deep breath
heavy sigh
I guess it all depends on which side your on.
and I'm offended by the fact that we still define sides along those lines.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,238
9/6/05 7:20:56 PM
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Go back a couple of posts
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=222917|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=222917] There I said, It would also be racist to make that comment about an individual whose public record provides ample evidence to the contrary - for instance saying the same thing about Bill Clinton. Or saying that about Bush with "black" replaced by "hispanic". In short I already acknowledged the fact that, while Bush's record on blacks is poor, his record on race is not so easily characterized. Remember, race is more complex than white/non-white. There are plenty of other divisions. When we're talking about Bush, we're talking about a man who has good friends from Saudi Arabia, with a hispanic sister-in-law, who is a master of issuing code phrases that let racists know that he is one of them. Yes, he has a very ethnically diverse cabinet. But we're talking about a man whose past campaign strategies have included disenfranchising blacks and creating a whispering campaign about McCain's colored kid. (Adopted from India, but he was trying to exploit racism against blacks with that one.) In short, his cabinet record does nothing to inspire me to believe that he cares about blacks at all. Particularly not when faced with his overall track record. In fact if you want to convince me that the allegation is false, the best way to go about it is to try to argue that Bush shows so little ability to generalize that it makes no sense to talk about what he thinks about a group of people. This I might be convinced to believe. However his record on blacks is simply so absymal that you aren't going to convince me that he has done OK on this issue. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #223,261
9/6/05 8:41:42 PM
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So you think that West...
...thought this through? Or do you simply think it a racist comment that you feel justifiable based on your perception of Bush policies?
I don't buy the justification.
But hey, let Bab's make a comment about the poor doing ok in Houston and its "see see! I told you day was racist and haters of the poor!"
Are we still wondering why I'm disgusted by this?
Jesse telling me that the word "refugee" is racist. JESSE JACKSON telling me that a dictionary correct description of the situation is RACIST?
And West saying this is "factually correct".
boggles the mind.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,282
9/6/05 9:19:50 PM
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I don't think that West thought this through
Should I expect him to? If I'm honest then I have to admit that I don't think through most of my comments about other people in detail. The words pop out of my mouth based on impressions that I don't have reams of logical analysis for. However once the words are said, then you can ask whether those particular words were justified. And I happen to believe that they were. That doesn't mean that everything that people have to say on the topic is justified. For instance you attempt to side-track into Jesse Jackson's latest antics. Well go take a look again at [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=222917|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=222917]. The second paragraph reads: If someone were to say that Jesse Jackson is a hypocrite who always play the race card first, I'd also see that as a factual claim that is probably true. Judging from that, do you think that I'm about to defend the man? Do you think that I'm going to claim that there is no racism in the comments that we're hearing from some quarters? It appears that you're trying to replace my views with some straw man caricature. Like you, I'm also unhappy with lots of people in this situation. My opinions also do not admit of a simple categorization. And I consider honesty to be more important than "sides". Please stop that. I'd particularly appreciate it if you stop acting as if I should support positions that I've made it clear I don't actually support. (Well, perhaps I wouldn't appreciate it that much. After all you'd be taking away a form of entertainment from me.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #223,080
9/6/05 9:35:15 AM
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"The haves and the have-mores."
"This is an impressive crowd - the haves and the have-mores," quipped the GOP standard-bearer. "Some people call you the elites; I call you my base."
- G.W. Bush
[link|http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/10/18/politics/main242210.shtml|http://www.cbsnews.c.../main242210.shtml]
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #223,091
9/6/05 10:01:37 AM
|
His "base"?
The Base?
Better known in Arabic as al Qaeda...
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #223,092
9/6/05 10:02:24 AM
|
That'll be 1,000 points for Peter. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #223,152
9/6/05 2:26:37 PM
|
It's OK, Bill...You can still like the Berk if you want.
No one here is trying to change your mind.
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #223,168
9/6/05 3:21:36 PM
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How easy it is...
Sort of like "justifiable homicide".
Its ok if >he< says something racist, he's earned it.
Sorry...doesn't float with me.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,178
9/6/05 3:46:41 PM
|
NO, it seems that the only thing that DOES float with you...
...is unrestrained capatalism and Berk-worship. Sorry, I've time for neither...I'm too busy trying to keep my heretofore middle class ass afloat. YMMV
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #223,179
9/6/05 3:49:52 PM
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I see.
So support of the system that built you that pc you type on somehow exempts me from being able to call out a racist.
Ok.
Nice subject change.
And you are getting worse than Ashton at conclusion jumping about my politics.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,196
9/6/05 4:30:18 PM
|
Your assertion has been inspected, dissected and
- some mythical-Unbiased Observer - might even say, refuted.
The Berk suffers from an inability to acknowledge error (ever) nor to discriminate 'twixt a perpetually-adolescent Stubbornness | and some idea of 'Dedication'.
You OTOH appear to be dedicated to the propping-up of an economic model which is now proving as 'successful' as is Iraq: as the massive Wealth-transfer is bringing the entire place closer to the nastiest of rebellions/schisms (and with all that modern techno around to assist in the bloodletting, too).
Maybe you are as astute in your choice of Political Model (as in your assessment of what might connote racism, in a phrase?)
Get thee to a Nunnery
(Or get a Glock?)
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Post #223,252
9/6/05 8:30:32 PM
|
I see you are suffering greatly...
...in a very low standard of living, grace a cette failure.
What a travesty.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,335
9/7/05 2:47:30 AM
|
Ah, desperation: the PTA exchange Red-Herring
Woman is bad-mouthing a teacher, concluding ~ you don't even have children - how could you know how to ___(whatever)?
Teacher replies, Ms. Hornswoggle - you raise hogs, don't you?
Yup, no bodee noze the trubble I seen, no bodee noze da trubble
So I'm disqualifed then, from commenting from a lifetime of observance of the daily underpaid Shit-work which I escaped, mostly.. (bloody-well not by 'birth') via the mere happenstance that my jelloware could process the kind of abstract mind-fluff as exempted me from a lifetime sentence to hard=(actual) Labor.
Heh.. I don't fit any of your stat profiles, though.
I've learned how to run nearly-on-Empty for a couple decades now; by choice.
Sans med 'care' nor insurance - except requisite auto. Sheer luck, assisted by an aversion to shopping.
I don't extrapolate well to whatever might have been votre petite le\ufffdon.
Your fav Market model - will/did get us where (most) are today - every time.
But there are minimalists in every country who can manage well with less: if they aren't planning for $100K/year/child, for 4 years+ to create a new MBA who will go on to a $1M mortgage, and a ___ and several ___s and (all those burglar alarms to protect the stuff when you're away. For more.)
Ah well, as the classes coalesce --> the New All=Lower -VS- the fewer Gated Compounds:
place yer bets, Beep. Or maybe plan for evac. In time.
Managed-Capitalism / With Smart Cops LLC
Liquidation Managers for (Chapt. 11) Diebold Voting Machines-for-Repos LLC
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Post #223,228
9/6/05 6:39:01 PM
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I learn from a Master ... :-\ufffd
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #222,918
9/5/05 2:00:17 PM
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Naw, george doesnt care about poor people
many of whom are black, big difference.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #222,919
9/5/05 2:07:41 PM
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You got that right.
Shrub is only worried about the "haves". The "have-nots", well, let them eat cake. They can't help him further his corporate agenda anyway. It's the folks with dinero that matter. They are the ones with "the power".
A two-party system works when it is in balance. When you have a government that is as unbalanced as it is today, one can expect a groundswell of unrest among the lowly masses.
Remember the song, "Helter Skelter"? Well, welcome to it becoming a reality.
Praying for peace,
Amy
Pray for the survivors of Katrina.
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Post #222,940
9/5/05 3:44:42 PM
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I love naivite.
Take away the haves.
Are the have nots better or worse off?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,943
9/5/05 4:23:28 PM
9/5/05 4:27:33 PM
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Nah - ya likes to toss out simplistic digital slogans
With all the nutrition of a single slider-burger. With extra reprocessed cheese-like material, deep-fried.
As. If. the entire Matter of the US transfer of National wealth, in Obscene individual sums -- into fewer and fewer pockets -- you would (and do) hand-wave away, with
Another Econ digital-think petulance like above.
(How could We Be so Dumb, as to Miss this underlying Simple!Simplistic Recipe?!)
(Boy they trained you up reel gud in Econ-101 - you thought they said catechism when they were describing a spreadsheet-induced: cataclysm.
Gosh.. if there were no people who had More
How could you tell if anyone had Less?
DeeP, BeeP.. or maybe as close to that as your customary serial arithmetic can manage.
There are Piet Hein's pithy little Grooks;
Then there are DeepBeep AntiGrooks ~~ that dark-matter we hear so much about?
But. Hey. I guess it works reel gud in them Red States as loves it-all made fast and simple. A Gary Cooper shrug will do.
Long as it 'work$ fer ya'; that's the Murican Way, so
Carrion.
PS - there's another guy out there who regularly mistakes stubborn & simplistic for 'deep', too; relative?
Edited by Ashton
Sept. 5, 2005, 04:27:33 PM EDT
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Post #222,953
9/5/05 5:34:44 PM
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Not that I expected differently.
But "haves" are generally those who have created businesses that employ "have nots".
Do I think that Gate's type wealth is extreme, sure.
Do I think that emimination Gates and his creation would eliminate tens of thousands of very well paying jobs?
Oh, wait. Communal living is where its at.
Never mind.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,082
9/6/05 9:37:05 AM
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GAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
Trickle down again? After not one, but two failures? Sheesh.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #223,083
9/6/05 9:41:47 AM
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its always trickle down, donja recognise the amonia smell?
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #223,199
9/6/05 4:41:05 PM
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Ah, the 'tinkle-down' yellow stuff: THAT ammonia. Parfait.
Less IS More in your quips.. kinda like them with them ex-middle-class paychecks / expired unemployment chits / while retraining for, recycling aluminum cans. Professionally, of course.
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Post #223,200
9/6/05 4:55:48 PM
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It's water-, not cream-based - I'd think that'd be a sorbet.
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Post #223,203
9/6/05 5:09:29 PM
9/6/05 5:16:52 PM
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:-\ufffd
Meant literally == perfect. Not that creamy dessert. Still, Nice Catch!
(But I have no witnesses amongst the grey cells as could testify. They have all signed a NDA.)
Edited by Ashton
Sept. 6, 2005, 05:16:52 PM EDT
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Post #222,949
9/5/05 5:02:48 PM
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only if the haves leave their stuff behind
only happened once, during the french revolution and the immediate plight of the sans coulottes were relieved. The borgoise standard of living dropped and the nobility were swiftly denuded of wealth and either killed or deported/escaped. The national treasury was broke but the government reneged on payments of prior debt and struggled before Napoleon took over. In all ways from that time to the present the underclass was represented and better off.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #222,954
9/5/05 5:35:52 PM
|
Interesting case in point, I suppose.
Well done, box.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,960
9/5/05 6:04:55 PM
|
Naive my arse!
The problem now is that the middle class is getting smaller and smaller, while the line of demarcation between rich and poor becomes a chasm. Read this, boyo: link:[link|http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=1252|http://www.yesmagazi...ticle.asp?ID=1252] Honey, I Shrunk the Middle Class
by Meizhu Lui
\t\t
While some Americans luxuriate in thousand-dollar-a-night suites at Palm Beach Four Seasons Hotel and in $30,000-cars, those in the middle class\ufffdAmerica\ufffds pride and joy\ufffdare struggling just to stay in the middle class.
During the last three years, there has been a massive loss of jobs, especially in the manufacturing sector, that had paid the bills for middle-class families. Out of the 2.9 million private-sector jobs that have been lost in the last three years, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2.8 million or 96 percent of them have been factory jobs. These were the unionized jobs in industries like auto and steel that paid good wages and created the middle class after World War II.
African-Americans have been hit especially hard. When discrimination in the auto and steel industries was curtailed by the federal government, many African-Americans were able to buy homes and send their kids to college. But now, with unemployment at 5.2 percent for whites, almost one in 11, or 9 percent of African-Americans are out of work\ufffdand out of the middle class.
If a laid-off worker finds a new job, chances are that worker will be taking a big cut in pay and benefits. According to the North American Alliance for Fair Employment, the jobs in industries that are growing pay 21 percent less than those in industries that are declining. In Delaware for example, average wages in downsizing industries are paying about $50,000 a year, while newly created jobs are paying less than $30,000. Family income has fallen in 39 states.
White-collar jobs are also on the chopping block. An estimated 14 million professionals will lose their jobs in the next few years as companies move these jobs overseas. For example, accountants making over $23 an hour in the US can be replaced by an accountant in India for little more than $6 an hour.
The problem is not only wages. Today, fewer and fewer jobs include health benefits. In 44 states, the percentage of people with employment-based health insurance decreased. Nearly 75 million Americans worried sometime in the last year that they would lose everything in case of an unexpected health crisis.
Older Americans are also on the middle-class endangered list. Employers have moved away from \ufffddefined benefit\ufffd pension plans that guarantee a worker a certain percentage of their yearly wages after retirement. Now, if a worker is lucky enough to have an employer-based retirement plan, employers generally guarantee only a \ufffdcontribution\ufffd -- that is, dollars that are invested in the stock market. As seen with Enron, if the stock goes bust, so does a worker\ufffds retirement.
In the meantime, corporate profits are up 25 percent. CEOs of our largest corporations are paid 301 times more than an average worker\ufffds salary. Government policies helped create the middle class after World War II, when work and wealth were more widely shared. Today, government policies have divided people through massive tax breaks for the wealthy and erosion of the public services all but the very wealthy rely on. We need to revive the American dream of economic security for all.
(my emphasis)
Meizhu Lui is executive director of United for a Fair Economy, www.FairEconomy.org A fair piece for all, Amy
Pray for the survivors of Katrina.
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Post #222,962
9/5/05 6:24:42 PM
|
The only way to revive
the middle class is to get them jobs that will earn them a middle class wage.
The only people that can do that are the "haves"...those folks with that "corporate agenda" of which you speak.
Or do you suppose that be taking more and more away from the "haves" that it will automatically be bestowed upon the "have nots"?
Methinks you have way too much faith in the governments ability to be a welfare state.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,973
9/5/05 7:00:29 PM
|
Your only form of exercise: jumping to conclusions.
Think of it this way: The current social structure is top-heavy. The rich are getting richer and the poor, poorer. The governmental policies in place today are eroding faster than you can say "Retiring Baby-Boomer."
Look at the big picture. Our country is operating under a budget that is getting further and further in debt. Our trade deficit grows daily. Our economy is not healthy. Privatization is not working for the middle class. Why are there CEO's who make 300 times what a worker makes? What can you possible do with that much money? It is excessive. That money should be going back to the shareholders and the company employees, who then can better fuel the economy with purchasing, saving, investing more, etc.
I'm not advocating a welfare state. We need a government that can take care of its people by investing in them. It worked before, but then, people who cared about their citizenry were in the Oval Office, not some selfish, Ivy league brat with a chip on his shoulder who kowtows to every whim of corporate lobbyists.
No peace for you!
Amy
Pray for the survivors of Katrina.
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Post #222,977
9/5/05 7:21:50 PM
|
Re: Your only form of exercise: jumping to conclusions.
"not some selfish, Ivy league brat with a chip on his shoulder who kowtows to every whim of corporate lobbyists."
Who, Clinton? ;-)
"We need a government that can take care of its people by investing in them."
No, we need a government that get's the f*** out of the way and lets the people invest in themselves.
Kowtowing to corporate interests is only possible because the government has traditionally meddled.
We also need an elitest class that understands that NIMBY actually means that investment forgone in their back yard goes to other COUNTRIES, not Kansas or Kentucky. Failure to allow investment in power generation, energy development and other heavy industry just means those jobs go overseas where they cry "big corporation is taking advantage of poor citizen of X country" where that citizen is amazingly happy to steal our job for pennies on the dollar.
And thus, the rich get richer and the people fighing over here arent' fighting for industrial jobs...they're fighting to be fry cook at the new Rally's on the corner.
Corporate governance is another area that needs to be addressed, granted. But that CEO that is making 300 times the wage of the man on the floor has his salary set by the board...who are elected by the shareholders.
We all know the US track record on participation in elections, now don't we?
Imagine one that they >don't< feel is important (like stockholder elections or elections to school boards, as examples)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,017
9/5/05 11:03:27 PM
|
The Red Staters got what they wanted
and everything that goes with it. You all wanted less government, YOU GOT IT!
Now, don't bitch because FEMA isn't worth a shit, or DHS. Shrub is only doing what y'all asked him to do. WAY TO GO!
Oh, and tell the nice folks in N.O. and Mississippi how much you care. I'm sure they'll believe every word you say. Especially when it comes to cutting funding for their Corps of Engineers, who knew that the levees were crap. God knows, that money is being better spent in Iraq. They understand. It's all about FREEDOM!
Gloriosky! :-P
Amy
Pray for the survivors of Katrina.
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Post #223,018
9/5/05 11:11:31 PM
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Nope...
its better spend building bridges in Alaska.
And who's to say FEMA was better or worse this time? It's not been tested like this before. Course, the boss does seem to be a bit of an idiot, does he not?
If we weren't spending it in Iraq...I'm sure we'd have some other boondoggle to send our cash on...after all we've never been any good at helping our own no matter who is in office.
(oh..now someone will bring up FDR...nothing like current events)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,023
9/6/05 12:01:27 AM
|
Aside from_____All__That__Relocation - - - -
And given the increasingly.. irreconcilable psychic differences..?
The now inescapable shrillness of the daily language murder:
We could try Secession again.
After all, we managed to reduce the idea of the Solemn Matter of Impeachment - all the way down to the pathetic politico-smarmy sanctimony of the last failed-charade.
Why not revisit secession?
There's no dialogue nor much prospect .. for .. .. .. a generation??
There's not even debate - all mouth/pen noises mirror the One-note YELLING of the Well-Paid Clowns, paid-pundit$ for cynical Corporate newsfotainment -
--- IT's A GOLD $MINE$ ---
Demagogues all:
Vastly-more on the Right, as That's where all the money Got-to.
(A 'Left' hasn't existed for decades here.)
Right-of-moderate is The New Left/Commie-pinkos,
the Why Do You Hate Murica So Much foci,
for all these personal interior Rage-sociopathies.
There remains not a Single vestige of:
Ed Murrow
Fred Friendly (!- his own acronym)
The American Mercury / H.L. Mencken
I.F. Stone
Twain
poor losing-it (?) Kurt Vonnegut
(or even our recently-departed, occasionally erudite News talking-head - but then he hailed from Canada)
(We do have squads of Father Couglans though - for any who want to see what the '30s were like. Here in God's Country)
Having outlived a handful who, in much slower times often kept us as nearer occasionally-honest
(as a religio-Capitalist daily-schemer Can approach that hoary, scary idea):
We have left only the plethora of Boomers,
a plague of hollow machine-MBAs stamped out like MCSEs,
in Highest Places and low.
An insatiable desire for More (for Me),
An uneducable large mass of folks -
Many of those confined in hamster-pens for far more than the 8 HOURS
(for which Prize ... many Union-scum died in its achievement).
Folks, many of whom have no idea and care not to have any:
re Who/What! McCarthy, Ed Murrow, James Welch were,
let alone what it was like to live under that earlier
(practice?? for PATRIOT-III - The Sequel)
oppression of the spirit, the mind and ..
the then daily pretense of something-about-'Jesus' (too)
as was inculcated so reflexively that -
few noticed their nodding-in-agreement:
to any fluffy-minded reference to some $Deity -
displayed on another one's shirtsleeve just *then*, and
demanding of one's Reassurance. (That it Must All Be So)
So:
I'd prefer the Separation,
conveniently located as I am - on the 'Left' Coast,
4th-Largest $Gross State/National $Product$ in the world,
how more cha-cha-cha need a one Be?
-- a small counterbalance--
to the Scripture-thumpers,
Rageaholics as infest mostly,
landlocked dreary patches as match
their internal landscape (apparently, quite well).
Where do we build the De-Enlistment kiosks?
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Post #223,079
9/6/05 9:33:35 AM
|
ooooh, what a cut, calling beep a microbowb
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #222,974
9/5/05 7:02:21 PM
|
OTOH
they're not doing it.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #222,979
9/5/05 7:41:07 PM
9/5/05 7:45:59 PM
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Methinks you have way too blind an eye to that last \ufffd
Above, as always - you'd rather snipe with meaningless extirpated details.. all under the rubric that: Corporations as, currently: We Know Them derive from some Econ Scripture, born-again Full Blown.. ~like The Humans, 6033.6 years ago.
Go read that last \ufffd for comprehension, this time. If you can get past your earliest inculcations:
It lies within the same province -- which we call ~ Government -- to recommence Monitoring and yes, fucking Meddling -- within the now very, very, Very-well-Oiled gears as have been perfectly-tuned, so as to create this unprecedented wealth transfer and its concentration in those very, very-Few pockets. (and offshore island banks w/ the #-accounts)
That Capital has been extracted: with no slightest concern -
(other than smarmy lip-service, periodically when a whistle blows - for the attention-span)
- for the society which builds, maintains, provides the playground: upon which the Shell-game produced this
$c h a s m$.
And if actual-Reform requires hnick?s suggestion (of somehow picking out a panel of Non-Diposable, seemingly Integruous panels to interrupt the flow of GNP into those fewer and fewer pockets via Corporate evasions of %share of the infrastructure -
W.T.F. Not? We are not automata; the "Rules for Corporations" are always fantasy stuff, ephemeral as words like ethics, honesty, Confidence and the rest. We created the rules, all along, EXCEPT:
Fuck with the concept of 'we', say by Buying the "people's" Representatives, lock-stock-barrel? (never mind 'is') and We see that 'we', today has descended to that few percent which Owns the Lion's share of all; measured by all whose with personal spreadsheets that need a >10-E-7 column, to measure the total swag.
Tell us again about Our Need for Benevolent Massa.. to trickle-down a few Porsche Carerra-GTs, perhaps macerated into one-gram pieces each Labor Day (the Soylent-chrome sample .. one's Murican-Dream talisman?)
You're a real Theoretician, BeeP.
(The Better ones tell me though, that it's Fatal to fall in love with one's cherished familiar model of buggywhip; they tell me this usually, after they ask if I want any fries with that.)
fix tyop
Edited by Ashton
Sept. 5, 2005, 07:45:59 PM EDT
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Post #222,995
9/5/05 9:20:12 PM
|
...
But trickle-down is nonsense, at the same time. If trickle-down worked, workers wouldn't have rioted with shgotguns in the late 19th century. If trickle-down worked, we wouldn't be in the fix we're in now. ENSURING that weath iis concentraded at the top does nobody any good; and that IS the agenda of this adminstration.
No balance. We have lost our balance, and unless we regain at least it's semblance, we can't stop the fall.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #222,997
9/5/05 9:22:13 PM
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You seem rather naive
You state the problem as the solution. The "haves" have no intention of paying anyone a middle class wage unless forced to. The only way to force that is to have a strong middle class that competes with the "haves".
The "haves" have become so wealthy they now own the government, an additional tool to supress the middle class, and the middle class is becoming too sparse to provide opportunities.
A corporation like Wal-Mart provides huge wealth for a very few, most of whom inherited the money that put them in that position. They provide many very low paying jobs. Corporations like this replaced a prosperous middle class of store owners, distributors, and small manufacturers.
I have clients who supply these monsters, and the monsters are squeezing every last drop of prosperity from these hard working people. The suppliers have no choice in the matter because the middle class store owners are too few to support them now.
The objective of the "haves" and their puppet government is to create El Salvador North, where there is a vast peasant class desperate for any income, almost no middle class, and a very few with obscene wealth (again, mostly inherited, not from productive activity).
And you are more than willing to be deceived by them.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #222,998
9/5/05 9:31:39 PM
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And so...
...we take it all, trust it in the hands of said government that is already owned by these corps...and what do we have?
Yes, I have been deceived by the simple rule of a capitalist society. And forgive me for thinking the conspiricy theory that has Bush battling to keep Bill Gates rich against all odds.
Love that kool-aid.
Y'all win. I've converted to socialism. Better yet. Communism. Mmoffitt...I;m in your corner now. Take everything and split it amongst the proletariat. Lord knows...its been sooo effective.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #222,999
9/5/05 9:50:47 PM
9/5/05 10:57:07 PM
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Against all odds.
Yup, when the Bush administration got in, they quickly allowed Microsoft to pretty much write the terms of punishment for their abusive monopoly conviction, terms under which even Microsoft officals admitted they had more control over the PC industry than they had before their conviction.
And those "simple rules of capitalism" should be stated "simplistic rules of capitalism". They are sufficiently simplistic they cannot work for long without ouside correction. Left alone capitalism results in a very few who control all the capital, a large pool of desparate peasants, and nothing in between. The monarchial system in Europe was pure capitalism.
Capitalism was corrected in Europe by destroying the monarchy. It was corrected in 19th century America by taxes and regulation, and it'll have to be corrected again in the 21st century.
Capitalism is an important segment of our society, but it must be balanced by other segments, just as our government was organized with three branches and two parties all to balance each other. Right now both capitalism and our government are out of balance and in need of corrective action.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #223,015
9/5/05 10:51:15 PM
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Re: Against all odds.
"Right now both capitalism and our government are out of balance and in need of corrective action."
No arguments.
Of course this isn't nearly as dramatic.
Gotta torture Ashton somehow.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,000
9/5/05 9:52:39 PM
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And thus you demonstrate, One More Time
Yours is a thoroughly Pedestrian imagination; you can break up any complex problem to some simple black/white homily -- but so can anyone.. there's an infinite suppy simple-assed faux-extreme-Opposites. Random will do, at that level of "thought"/ automatic-contradiction.
(Maybe you should have studied Python more closely; theirs was quite more than two-state 'logic'.)
Pshaw.
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Post #223,002
9/5/05 10:00:49 PM
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*nudge*
Pot. Kettle. Black.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #223,001
9/5/05 9:59:10 PM
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Bah.
Extremes, Bill.
We DO have a government that favors corps more than people.
We DON'T need a government that does the opposite, and destroys business, true. That DOESN'T mean that the former is the way to go.
If the best that economics can come up with are the choices of extremists, then economics has about the same utility as phrenology.
We need to find a way, while recognising that ALL resources are limited. (Except words, and we have a surplus of THEM)
We need to throw away what doesn't work, and find something that does - or is our vaunted American Ingenuity worth SQUAT? I don't believe that.
We need - hell, I don't know. Something fair for everyone? Something that doesn't create a permanent underclass that will bubble with resentment until it erupts?
Whatever it is, I DO feel strongly that it will have to be based on incentives and opportunities as opposed to regulations and limits.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #223,007
9/5/05 10:27:42 PM
|
Then we'd have to face inherited Empires
..along with those evident base testosterone urges to create New ones - over other locales.
The aforementioned Wal-Mart and the other dynasties have fueled the machine which protects its operation from All unfunded, unorganized comers. Right on down to ensuring the Votes by buying the vote-generators outright.
And whatever might penetrate that triple razor-wire fence around the dispersed Fort Knoxes -?- looks to be some Creature requiring as much deceit, spin, sub-rosa machinations as Built It.
I don't see extant (yet..) the will, the means, the attention-span == dedication, as it would require to clean these modernized Hardened Augean Stables.
Chaos, OTOH - has a habit of dismantling it All; the moderately-functioning along with the toxic substrate. It's also the easiest 'solution': the one which most lazy mobs tend to wait ... .... ... for.
I see EZ, class=simplistic, as located high on our Motto list, right under,
I've got Mine; Fuck you, Jack!
(I shall be pleased-as-punch, like HHH - to have this estimate Wrong.)
Better.. if, while I'm still alive - but I'll give ya a 50 yr. raincheck; and still sell short, from the material I espy running things. Even at intermediate levels.
Maybe Lloyds of London could hold any bets - I wouldn't want to 'bet' on \ufffdtna - who knows what 50yr scam they are already well-into, via various cross-pollinated 'Boards'?
(Those boards which, Beep sez: pay those 300:1 cost-effective salaries to the CIEIOs. Add-to-list the rulez about multiple-board-enhancement? Naahhhh.)
Optimistically, though -
I.
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Post #223,012
9/5/05 10:41:05 PM
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perhaps a few ideas
Companies that force working tax payers into government assistance plans that are supported by the individuals who pay taxes because their wages are too low. Should the CEO of GE have to pay extra because the CEO of Walmart has designed a staffing plan that pays so little employees have no health care and are eligable for food stamps?
Now what we have here is a classic need for a worker based insurgency that will have thugs toting shotguns shooting down people manning picket lines. The will to do so has not yet tipped to the underclass, but you can only kick a dog so many times before they retaliate. Now do you want the government to regulate decent wages/benefits via taxation policies or do you want the mob and whoever is left after the mayhem dictating policies. We have done it both ways in this country many times, its about to recycle again unless someone in a leadership capacity steps in.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #223,020
9/5/05 11:18:15 PM
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<Sigh> (new thread)
Created as new thread #223019 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=223019|]
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Post #223,024
9/6/05 12:14:57 AM
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Zope mucked the new addy in Econ - gotta alter header.
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Post #223,060
9/6/05 5:05:16 AM
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What you remind me of...
is a whipped dog crawling back to its master hoping that if it obeys better this time, it won't get whipped quite so hard next time.
A healthy middle class should not be dependent upon begging the haves for largesse. And in my opinion, a healthy economic order does not need to encourage current levels of economic disparity. Much smaller differences suffice to drive capitalism.
In the last quarter century extremes of wealth have grown 10-fold relative to the middle class while the middle class has stagnated and shrunk. And this trend is accelerating. There is no point in history where trickle-down has been shown to work. And points where the middle class have grown have been times where trickle-down was very definitely not being practiced.
You deride the notion that it is good for the common folk to reduce the incentive for the haves to try to award themselves with more ownership. However if you'll hold your derision, you might find that this is actually a good idea!
Taking the system that they had in the 50s and updating it (does some calculations), you know, I see nothing wrong with saying that anything you make over $6,000,000/year gets taxed at 90%. Doing this would allow you to drop most people's taxes quite substantially. And if the tax rate was that high on CEOs, I'll bet that they would have a little less incentive than they do now to see how far they can push corporate governance.
Mock all you like. I actually believe this.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #223,076
9/6/05 9:02:55 AM
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Thats all well and good
But you have to have the manufacturing base that was present in the 50s in order to even >have< a middle class.
And since it has been decided by our "elite" that we should cost ourselves out of that market and/or regulate to the point of stagnation, that manufacturing base does not exist.
You could tax at 90% incremental all you like. It won't bring the steel mills back.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,094
9/6/05 10:42:02 AM
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The 'middle class' does not require massive manufacturing.
That was a temporary abberation that boosted day laborers into a middle class economy. Good for the day laborers, but not sustainable against increasingly cheap and rapid transportation and communications.
The strength of the middle class has traditionally been trade and commerece. That's how the middle class got established in the first place, under the watchful and disapproving eye of the capitalist arostocracy.
Today, trade and commerce are being taken over by a very few giant corporations that are perfectly happy to destroy society and our economy to feed their quarterly bottom line - because the short term bottom line is the only thing of interest to non-productive wealth (mostly inherited).
A return to deliberately confiscatory inheritance taxation would do the country a lot of good. The previous round worked decently but was allowed to slip out of sync with the economy. Then the filthy rich were able to point to a negative impact on farmers (the same ones they were forcing out of business) and modest family owned businesses to gain public sympathy for a repeal.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #223,135
9/6/05 1:54:42 PM
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Trade and Commerce
in the "glory days" was all about physical goods. Durable production. When we traded, we traded someone a refrigerator, a pump, etc.
French fries don't keep well in overseas containers.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,148
9/6/05 2:16:59 PM
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Sure they do
Rent/borrow/steal the DVD of Supersize Me. Check out the special features. Ponder: WTF do they make those things out of? Spoiler: | They put one of each type of McSandwhich, an order of fries, and a burger and fries from a neighborhood restaurant, each under their own glass jars. After six weeks the smell from the sandwhiches had gotten so bad his assistant threw them out. At ten weeks, when the janitor accidentally pitched them, the McFries still looked new. I suspect they would keep just fine in overseas containers. |
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #223,162
9/6/05 3:04:40 PM
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I forgot that part.
You're right. They do keep well in an overseas container.
My bad.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,205
9/6/05 5:12:43 PM
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I suspect that a monomolecular coat of Superglue keeps the
'Freshness' in.
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Post #223,169
9/6/05 3:22:15 PM
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Trade and Commerce in todays world
when you have Giants controlling the product from inception to point of sale there is no room to squeeze profit except from less workers being more productive at a cheaper cost. This does well for your companies bottom line but bodes ill for the longterm existence of the company. A chain wrapped too tight will break.
Just in time may end up being the wrong item too late.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #223,175
9/6/05 3:38:29 PM
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No, the trade that built the middle class . .
. . was mostly in luxury goods (which the monarchial capitalists would pay absurd prices for), including semi-perishable foods like ginger roots, olive oil, spices and the like - and of course slaves to supply the "service economy".
Trade in refrigerators and other major manufactured goods didn't come until the middle class was numerous enough and wealthy enough to make appliance manufacturing worthwhile. If the middle class dies out, so will most of the manufacturing.
With today's transportation we easily send French fies world-wide, along with the oil to fry them in. You've read too many 19th century politico-economic tomes and your mind is stuck in a factory mentality.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #223,136
9/6/05 1:54:50 PM
9/6/05 1:55:20 PM
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Dupe
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
Edited by bepatient
Sept. 6, 2005, 01:55:20 PM EDT
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Post #223,154
9/6/05 2:32:06 PM
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Yes, and how many middle class wage-paying jobs...
..have those "haves" created in the last, say, 5 years? I mean for American workers, not those in Ecuador or Paraguay?
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #223,170
9/6/05 3:23:47 PM
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Dunno about wage level
but over a million since the bottom of the cycle. And unemployment is still pretty low on average.
Oh, sorry, they must all be fry cooks. I know my opportunities have all been in the fast food sector.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,180
9/6/05 3:49:55 PM
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A million manufacturing jobs created? Who YOU crappin'?
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #223,183
9/6/05 3:58:51 PM
|
actually
was non-farm payroll. Didn't hammer through BLS stats to get exact counts.
and if you would keep up everywhere this subject seems to have popped up...you would notice that there are other things necessary to ensure mfg jobs stay at home or are created here.
All discussions here are vastly oversimplistic, mine included.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,186
9/6/05 4:03:21 PM
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Don't go there, Bill. It's out of line.
Insist that everything is peachy all you want. The available jobs SUCK. Just because you aren't having trouble everything is all right?
I know too many skilled people that have been forced to take low-end jobs. The middle-class jobs aren't there. Perhaps they can't get jobs because they aren't educated though, right? It must be their fault somehow, right?
I had to work as a stock-boy, damnit. And I'm skilled in a field that supposedly has a shortage of workers that's so bad they 'need' to export more jobs overseas... To get a job that was even CAPABLE of paying bills (and it still pays below average), I had to leave my friends and family behind and migrate to a locale I DON'T particularly like.
Don't simply vomit out the Neocon party line, just because you disagree with the lefties here. "If ya ain't fer 'us, yer agin' us' is not a strategy or tactic, IT'S HORSESHIT, no matter who uses it. The 'recovery' isn't. It's about as real as 'Mission Accomplished' in Iraq.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #223,202
9/6/05 5:06:15 PM
|
Yabut he's Our pet troglodyte.
And while many of his posts are transparent trollin fer Fresh Meat (Hey, that's Entertainment!), we must respect his religion too - Obscurantism-by-selected statistics is, why.. as Murican as the Teapot Dome.
(or the Astodome; the other circuses to keep the masses barefoot but Entertained, so as not to cluster together and ask Too-pointedly: Wassup, motherfucker?)
Besides, the studying of mouldering Econ texts of another era may be less harmful than a number of other popular methodologies of comfy Denial (and a lot cheaper than Bolivian Blue-flake, to boot.)
(When my neighbor down the hollow is dancin around and sacrificin another goat - to buck-up his chances of gettin Raptured-outtahere: I sympathize a tad with his 'reasoning' about 'here' - and am thankful that, so far -- it's just defenseless goats he's a sacrificin. This week, anyway..)
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Post #223,211
9/6/05 5:54:10 PM
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Actually
you could do worse than to pay attention to what he says as opposed to what you want him to mean. I don't always agree with him, true - to say he's living in a cave, out of touch with modern life is a too much.
As to 'his religion' - I've seen too much left-worship and right-hate in here - to take any attempt to cast him in the role you want him to play seriously.
Ash - no offence meant, but YOU are far more extremist in your views - and less amenable to logic - than Beep is.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #223,231
9/6/05 6:54:19 PM
9/6/05 7:04:42 PM
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Re: Actually
Had no such perception of BeeP - he Couldn't be as outta touch as his troll bait always loves to imply. Yathink maybe I be dense er somethin? How many years has it been.. lessee..
When a one repeatedly drops one-liners and rises to 'clarification' only well-after they misfire horribly - what do ya call That?
As for my being 'Left'; now who is picking the handiest giant-LABEL to save looking at a pattern. I Don't Know What a Murican 'means' by that once-perhaps-useful idea.
I Am "Left" politically, as are a huge chunk of this cant-besotted country in now perpetual exremis: only insofar as anyone with a balanced view of give/take, actual respect for the Constitution, putting aside temporarily one's self-aggrandizement in order to Serve ... all are so far away from the current Right-pole's *performance*: It MUST be "left".
('Moderate' vanished long ago - and is now an epithet, being also so-far-away from Rightism)
[All this, IF you believe in silly straight lines with numbered marks on them - to describe Anyone's jelloware, experience and acumen. Shall we do IQ next?]
This so-called 'Right' is not even that! - as it is so obviously raiding the treasury for now unto 3 generations, while curtailing liberties and starting invasions by Pure Deception, destroying our earned partial-respect in the civilized World == destroying the REAL 'National Security' wholesale and at a dead-run.
(Want the First-100 List of Atrocities, too?)
This 'Right' is Reactionary-in-appearance, as camouflage for the creation (recreation?) of a corporate state of Haves/Nots as was popular just after the Weimar republic was assassinated. The shiny black boots are.. just a Commissary item, distributed after the Fall. With the epaulets and German Shepherds for patrol.
I Am orthogonal to the specious labels you would wish to attach; I do not credit *blab* words with more than a shrug. Read Me In My Posts - oh, wait - the words are too long. Never mind.
tyops
Edited by Ashton
Sept. 6, 2005, 07:04:42 PM EDT
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Post #223,279
9/6/05 9:14:27 PM
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HIS troll bait?
You can be a riot sometimes, Ash!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #223,288
9/6/05 10:10:56 PM
|
;=)
mais oui!
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,313
9/7/05 12:13:19 AM
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Troll 'bait' can be switched: works OK on you.
These threads are all repetitive anyway. Since we pretty much know where most folks stand on the Bigger stuff.. it's kinda a weekday NY Times crossword, needing only the occasional 'syzygy' to solve.
Conversion ain't gonna happen after jelloware sets.
(Well, maybe on Discworld)
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Post #223,392
9/7/05 10:24:52 AM
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Hook sometimes taken...sometimes grazes the side.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #223,254
9/6/05 8:33:34 PM
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I don't
Somewhere in the center the truth doth lie.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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