Need suggestion

Post #207,887 by jbrabeck 5/17/05 9:28:59 PM Reply	Need suggestion Youngest step daughter has failed to pass the basic standards math test for the 2nd (or 3rd) time. Doesn't want mom or I to help. BUT I may be able to convince her to try some math software. Anyone have any suggestions for High School level math tutoring software? tia Joe A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #207,888 by ben_tilly 5/17/05 9:41:56 PM Reply	Suggestion your wife may not agree with Youngest step-daughter should be made to choose between accepting help (you, or hiring tutor), not accepting help but having serious restrictions on her (revoke phone access, limit going out, possibly put favorite time-wasting items in storage), and finding a new place to live. Note that your wife may strenuously object... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #207,899 by Another Scott 5/17/05 11:49:58 PM Reply	I would be nervous about this approach. Yes, she should have to make a choice about how she learns because, ultimately, no one can force her to learn. But teenagers can be very strong willed and can think that they are being forced into a particular choice when they're really not. Without knowing what Joe and his wife have tried, nor understanding more about their relationship with their daughter, I don't think that saying "Choose x, y, z or live elsewhere" is a productive strategy. I assume she's under 18. What will they do if she decides on the last option? She may need to hit some sort of bottom before she accepts that she needs help. Confronting an impending reality may help. Teenagers often aren't rational though. Seeing beyond high school can be very, very difficult. If she feels that her only choice is to leave, then it's possible (maybe even likely) that she'll not improve her math skills before more serious problems crop up. Leaving home should never be a rash decision. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #207,906 by ben_tilly 5/18/05 12:16:33 AM Reply	Depends on the kid and family First of all I should admit that I don't have teenagers. However I've seen variations on the above strategy be successfully used. My opinion is that teenagers need to learn to take responsibility for their actions. Part of taking responsibility is understanding that your choices carry real consequences. Family can help. But at some point you have to help yourself. I guess there is a philosophy question here. To me it is very important that adults understand that while other people cannot choose what you'll do, you likewise cannot choose what they'll do. As for what to do if she seriously decides on the last option, I assume from the description that she has a father. Let her live with him! (I have a sister who did exactly that at what I suspect was a similar age. I think it was good for her.) Or find some other relative for her to live with. But the hope is that she won't decide on the last option. Very few teenagers are ready to do that. Instead the hope is that she'll accept tutoring. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #207,889 by tuberculosis 5/17/05 9:55:21 PM Reply	I agree with Ben She will need instruction. My personal rule is to avoid trying to teach family members anything and instead hire outsiders. Its much cheaper in the end. From the outsider, its helping. From you its criticism. Difficulties with high school math is common and there is a fairly large cottage industry offering tutoring in most areas. Ask the teachers at school, they usually know who is offering tutoring. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #207,890 by Another Scott 5/17/05 10:03:06 PM Reply	Nothing first hand. Any clue on why she's having trouble? Bad teacher? Lack of interest? Fear of failure if she tried and didn't do well? Fear of the future? Forgot or didn't learn too much early stuff? Peer pressure? Rebellion against being forced to take the test? :-( I'm not sure what "basic standards math" is. Does [link\|http://highschoolhub.org/hub/math.cfm\|this] page help? There are some 404s there, but it seems to cover everything from basic math through pre-calculus. There seems to be a lot of stuff on the web that might help. I don't know of any pre-packaged software that would be good for home-study. Nothing jumped out at Amazon. There's also things like the Princeton Review, but that's $$$. Math is very hard to learn without personal motivation. Unfortunately, it can be hard to help instill that motivation. Does she know about fractals and the Mandelbrot set? Does she like to gamble or play cards (statistics)? Does she have any interest in the markets (compound interest, future values, financial math)? Does she do sewing or woodworking (geometry, estimation)? Architecture (calculating the strength of structures and stresses)? Chaos? I know this doesn't help much, but hope it does a little. Best of luck! Cheers, Scott.
Post #207,893 by gdaustin 5/17/05 10:45:08 PM 5/17/05 10:49:07 PM Reply	How old? My kids are 4th and 2nd grade, and Kindergarten next year. The Clue Finders software is fun and it teaches math basics, plus reasoning and some verbals. Clue Finders runs 3rd Grade - 6th Grade. Basically, you solve math, reasoning, and verbal problems and work though the exercises to solve a "big" puzzle. The 3rd Grade Clue Finders is an excellent puzzle, but it's going to take some work to "win" it. For younger kids, the Math Blaster series will teach basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. I like the "Mother Bird" Egg game. Even adults can have trouble winning against the computer. If your daughter is older, I can't help, 'cause I don't have teens yet. Sometimes, the younger kid stuff works for the older kids too, if it's fun. You might try Clue Finders, then move up from there. I would say that positive reinforcement does wonders. You'll need to act like you're very excited about this math stuff. Don't criticize or you'll lose her. If you can't make it fun and positive, then hire the teacher. If you get frustrated with progress, then hire the teacher. She has to learn this at her pace. Glen Austin Edited by gdaustin May 17, 2005, 10:49:07 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #207,895 by Nightowl 5/17/05 11:07:15 PM Reply	Re: How old? ...Don't criticize or you'll lose her. ... I can't agree with this more. One of the reasons I started hating math at an early age was this sentence from every teacher I encountered: "Why aren't you a genius at math like your older brother?" Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #207,900 by broomberg 5/17/05 11:58:16 PM Reply	The brother who sent cash for an E-Bay purchase?
Post #207,910 by Nightowl 5/18/05 12:55:04 AM Reply	Yep Same one. Brenda "The people of the world having once been deceived, suspect deceit in truth itself." -- Hitopadesa 600?-1100? AD, Sanskrit Fable From Panchatantr
Post #207,925 by broomberg 5/18/05 6:50:04 AM Reply	And he's the smart one?
Post #207,977 by Nightowl 5/18/05 12:38:12 PM Reply	Re: And he's the smart one? Just because you're a math genius doesn't always mean you use your common sense all the time. :) Brenda Don't mind me, I'm playing in VI!
Post #207,911 by Ashton 5/18/05 12:55:58 AM Reply	My mater, in '20s:____Oh.. you Kid! :-\ufffd
Post #207,897 by Ashton 5/17/05 11:23:31 PM Reply	Re: Need suggestion Second the observations above - 'tutoring' is an art; knowing is Not enough - and family interactions complicate any 'teaching', especially under duress. I recall a phys. friend remarking how one kid's problem came down to: not really grokking how/why "cross multiplying" worked! Once that was shown - she flew. Well, at least - glided a bit. So, the first thing a would-be tutor would do is - take 'inventory' of where she is. Then build brilliantly from there. (I can only admire those who have a gift for ferreting out such blocks and moving on from just-There. I forget most of, how-it-was before I understood X; I think I have a lot of company.) Luck, Ashton
Post #207,921 by pwhysall 5/18/05 3:00:08 AM Reply	Is she receptive to carrot/stick? i.e. can you bribe her? Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #207,932 by Silverlock 5/18/05 7:23:24 AM Reply	Check local college for tutors My guess is she missed some basics and doesn't know how to catch up. A tutor can really help with this. If her school doesn't have a computer lab check the local community college. Remedial math instruction is a staple in most of them and the lab they have will most likely have a few different methods to help. NovaNet* has a very good track record in this area. See if her school has it. *Ob disclosure, NovaNet is one of the products my company offers. ----------------------------------------- "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." -- H. L. Mencken Support our troops, Impeach Bush. D. D. Richards
Post #207,935 by jbrabeck 5/18/05 8:18:15 AM Reply	Added information to help with advice She's 16, HS sophomore. Minnesota has "basic standards" tests (Reading, writing, basic math) that must be passed to graduate from HS. She is a documented slow learner with reading comprehension difficulty. She is/was borderline qualified for "special ed" because of it. Was placed in special ed for two years and made huge improvements. Not unwilling to learn, but easily frustrated (I find it hard to help because I get frustrated when she doesn't "see" the answer "right in front of her".) She understands the need to pass and is willing to try. I found out last night that one of her friends also failed and would like help. IF I can get the two of them together, then I will be able to tutor both. They would "compete" and help each other. With just my daughter I think it would become "difficult". And as to her moving in with bio father. We have restraining orders in place to keep him away. No an option. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #207,936 by bionerd 5/18/05 9:06:02 AM Reply	Is she still under an IEP? If yes, the school is under obligation to help. Pull together a meeting with her team to discuss solutions. If not, you might want to have her retested to see if something new hasnt popped up. She might need to be recertified. She may have a math disability that didnt show before. Her math is more complicated now- maybe her processing skills arent developed enough. If you request testing, the school district has to comply- in Michigan they have 30 days. Dont know what the law is in MN. I'd have her tested just to be sure. It will let you know where she stands. Her frustration level is a red flag for me. It tells me she's motivated and wants to understand but something is preventing her from doing so. Have you talked to her math teacher yet? Maybe he/she has some insight into the problem. Regarding tutoring- do you have Sylvan Learning in your area? They are pretty good, but pricey. You might also want to check your local library- they often know about good tutoring programs. Lastly- how is her vision? Has she seen an optometrist lately? Kids with math and reading problems often have visual processing disorders. You might want to get that checked out. More info on this here: [link\|http://www.visionandlearning.org/index.htm\|http://www.visionand...ing.org/index.htm] Just some thoughts. My son has numerous disabilities and processing disorders. I deal with this stuff on a daily basis. HTH. Laura
Post #207,941 by jbrabeck 5/18/05 9:15:19 AM Reply	Glasses and IEP Glasses - won't wear them. IEP dropped at end of last year since she was doing "so well". Thanks for advice. Will contact school. A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
Post #207,942 by bionerd 5/18/05 9:29:43 AM Reply	One thing I've learned.. Is that even though the school promotes itself as being an advocate for my child, they arent. They are slow to identify problems, and when they do, little is done about it. I'm in constant communication with my son's teacher and educational team. I'm sure the principal hates me. He always has a "special" look on his face when he see's me. A look that says "OMFG, what does SHE want now?" I've really had to learn to be a hard ass. It's not fun. Hope things work out for you.
Post #207,945 by CRConrad 5/18/05 9:51:09 AM Reply	You're the adults; you TELL her to use 'em if she needs 'em.
Post #207,947 by bionerd 5/18/05 9:54:00 AM Reply	Says the newbie parent If it were only as easy at that................:-)
Post #207,948 by CRConrad 5/18/05 10:00:48 AM Reply	Been on the recieving end of it. Called child-rearing, AFAIK
Post #207,951 by admin 5/18/05 10:18:32 AM Reply	Naive. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #207,958 by CRConrad 5/18/05 11:13:10 AM Reply	Bah. "Give 'em a good beating if they don't obey, say I. I've had a lot of beatings, and it hasn't hu-- hasn't hu-- hasn't hu-- hasn't hurt me at all." [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #207,984 by bionerd 5/18/05 2:05:34 PM Reply	Ahhhh- That explains a lot! ;-)
Post #208,055 by CRConrad 5/19/05 2:37:02 AM Reply	Eh, you did see the quotation marks, I hope? :-) I can't even claim the joke as an original; I adapted it from an old Swedish comedy skit (about professional boxing, not child-rearing). [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #208,067 by bionerd 5/19/05 9:34:53 AM Reply	Yes ;-)
Post #207,996 by ben_tilly 5/18/05 2:53:05 PM Reply	Get a tutor. Do not try to do it yourself. One of the worst things that you can do for someone who is having trouble with math is get frustrated. Because then they get frustrated with themselves, and that frustration makes them worse at math, completing the destructive cycle. Therefore if you get frustrated dealing with her learning trouble, you're contributing to her problems. You need someone who can deal with her issues, deal with her frustration, and can break the problem down even farther until they find what steps she's missing. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #208,060 by Another Scott 5/19/05 8:11:10 AM Reply	They should help each other, but need a pro. As others say, it's probably best for everyone if you can find a tutor. Having both of them work together with a tutor may help, but you need to be sure that the tutor can provide appropriate correction if they start to reinforce thoughts that are wrong. E.g.: I remember in 6th grade or so studying together with a kid who was quite a bit slower than me. I didn't understand the subject as well as I thought I did and we ended up "learning" some things that were wrong. Situations like that will arise and a tutor would have more experience with how to straighten it out. You don't want to get in a situation where it's 2 against 1 and they feel that the answer is arbitrary. HTH. Luck! Cheers, Scott.

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